Jump to content
Louie da fly

10th-11th century Byzantine dromon by Louie da fly - 1:50

Recommended Posts

even without the oars she looks grand, Steven. You do her proud!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

She's looking very fine indeed Steven; the overall shot really shows how much effort and detail you have put into the build.

 

cheers

 

Pat

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In order to tack the mediaeval lateener, it was necessary to bring the yard vertical against the mast. I think your crutch forward of the foremast would impede that manoeuvre. Also the lower part of the yard needs to be shorter than the upper so it can clear the forecastle. The best illustrations of this manoeuvre are in Landstrom's "`The Ship". If you are going to depict rowers, are you going to stow the yards on the crutches?

Dick

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for the comments and likes.

 

Dick, I've certainly thought long and hard about these issues. You may be right about the crutch, but as the final position of the yard has yet to be determined, I think I can position it so there won't be any problems. Similarly with the forecastle. On the other hand, the captain of the caravel reconstruction Notorious told me he follows the Arabs in not bothering to move the yard across the mast, but just keeps it on the same "tack" with the wind blowing from the other side. This of course blows the sail against the mast, but apparently it makes very little difference.

 

I've looked at the idea of putting the masts and yards on the crutches but there are enough accounts of galleys being both rowed and sailed simultaneously for me to feel justified in portraying the dromon that way. Of course, as dromons are pretty easily capsized by side winds, I intend to show her sailing with the wind aft, with the two sails on opposite tacks, so she's "goose-winged".

 

Steven.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Louie da fly said:

. On the other hand, the captain of the caravel reconstruction Notorious told me he follows the Arabs in not bothering to move the yard across the mast, but just keeps it on the same "tack" with the wind blowing from the other side. This of course blows the sail against the mast, but apparently it makes very little difference.

 

 

 

Steven.

The mediaeval lateen rig had the sail OUTSIDE the shrouds so if your caravel friend is putting the sail aback against the mast , he must have the sail INSIDE the shrouds which is counter to mediterranean practice of the period you are dealing with ( see prof. Pryor's publications on the mediaeval lateen rig). I will try to get hold of Julian Whitewright's thesis on the mediaeval lateen rig as a basis for the rig of my round ship. The dhows mostly used a settee sail not a full lateen and so I would be cautious using dhows as a model for your rig. It is no longer accepted that lateen rig originated in the Indian Ocean as undoubted depictions of lateen sail rigs date from the second century CE.

image.png.46ad585828c44ae425d35eacfd9ae9d5.png

image.png.470a14f0c9d34214690b1f61e2b3deaa.pngthe settee sail had the forward corner of the sail squared off

Your idea of goose-winging the sails while oars are deployed is good. The oars would provide some lateral stability when running before the wind.

I am enjoying the build immensely. Keep up the good work

Dick

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dick, I've checked whether the yard can be slung around the foremast and it can - just. It looks like the crutch won't be an issue. However, I might have to support the yard from a bit forrard of centre, as there's a bit of clearance problem with the forecastle, despite all my calculations. I'd rather support it in the centre, as almost all the pictures I've seen, both contemporary and modern, show it supported that way. But the only way to do that is to shorten the yard, which I'm loath to do. 

 

I'd never seen that second century representation before. Very interesting. It certainly pretty much demolishes the "Arab" origin for the the lateen sail. The inscription appears to say αλεξαν αλεξανδρου μιλησιος, which according to Google means "the Milesian Alexandros" - which I think means Alexander of Milesia (or possibly in/at Milesia?). I don't think I can accept the alternative translation - "they chose the skeleton" 

 

Steven

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

ΑΛΕΞΑΝΔΡΟΥ ΜΙΛΗΣΙΟΣ   Looking that my first though is: In nomimativ is AlexanDROS. Here, is genitive... AlexanDROU. Meaning "of Alexander's", showing in this way that it belongs or it refers to Alexandros. That is... the ship, or the picture, or whatever "of Alexander",  "of" belonging/referring to him.

 

Now, ΜΙΛΗΣΙΟΣ its nomimativ and clearly  means, Alexander from Miletus (Μίλητος)  (ref.to a historically  very important ancient greek  city of Anatolia in the Ionian region, on the western Aegean Sea coast -present day Turkey ), meaning simply and definitely  that Miletus  is his home city.

 

 

Still why is the name written twice? (Peculiarity?)

Actually and more precisely  its written : ΑΛΕΞΑΝ_ _ΑΛΕΞΑΝΔΡΟΥ ΜΙΛΗΣΙΟΣ.

Can that be that this way it designates the person  in the picture as Alexan the son of Alexandrou  from Miletus?

 

Example: My son's name is Andreas and my name is Christos, so it can be said "Andreas ChrisTOU" (genitive), meaning Andreas the son of Christos.  (Commenting Alexandros as the name of both father and son, it can be said, that it was oft at that time, that the son and father had the same name). 

 

So this possibly is the case here. Otherwise  there is only just a repeat of the name, which again, that would have been meaningless.

 

Concluding I have to add, that ΑΛΕΞΑΝ as a word (as a name) of it self -I believe- its incomplete and had never existed. The complete and proper name  was (some grammar):

Ο ΑΛΕΞΑΝΔΡΟΣ (nominativ)

ΤΟΥ ΑΛΕΞΑΝΔΡΟΥ (genitiv)

ΤΟΝ ΑΛΕΞΑΝΔΡΟΝ (acusativ)

ΤΩ ΑΛΕΞΑΝΔΡΩ (dativ)

Ω ΑΛΕΞΑΝΔΡΕ (vocative)

 

Ofcourse it can be that it was originally written ΑΛΕΞΑΝΔΡΟΣ   (and not ΑΛΕΞΑΝ)  ΑΛΕΞΑΝΔΡΟΥ ΜΙΛΗΣΙΟΣ  and simply the last four letters have been damaged. If this is the case, then this makes sense: Alexander, son of Alexander from Miletus

 

Christos

Edited by MESSIS

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

Adding some etymology:

Αλέξ-ανδρος is composed out of two words, Αλέξ from the verb αλέξω meaning push away, and ανδρός from the word άνδρας meaning man. Man is άνδρας (nominativ) του ανδρός ( genitiv)

 

So Αλέξανδρος its the strong and brave one, "the one that pushes men away", men is referred to the enemy's men.

 

 

So in the case above it could have been written Άλεξ (as it exists as a word) but never Αλεξαν... which that would be the word Άλεξ plus the two first letters of the word ανδρος... cant be.... its nonsense.

 

 

Ps. I apologise for writing all  these, it makes me most probably  look like a "wise guy" or a smart-***... but ancient greek its my pet subject and I always really enjoy talking about it. Hope that some of the stuff  is useful or interesting and apologies again.

 

Edited by MESSIS

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

Thanks Christos for the explanation. You don't have to apologise at all - Ancient Greek (and Mediaeval Greek even more so) are obsessions of mine as well. I'm returning to university next year (doing history, with a mediaeval/Byzantine emphasis) and this time I intend to master Greek properly, so I can read it without needing Google . . .😁

 

Looking again at the inscription above, I believe you're right - it must originally have said ΑΛΕΞΑΝΔΡΟΣ ΑΛΕΞΑΝΔΡΟΥ ΜΙΛΗΣΙΟΣ - Alexander, son of Alexander from Miletus - the remains of the "missing" letters ΔΡ and Σ can be seen now that I've looked more carefully.

 

And I'd like to thank Dick for posting that picture. The best evidence available at the time Age of the Dromon was published (admittedly that's 13 years old now) was a "probable" lateen dated if I recall correctly to the 6th century. But this is a definite lateen, not a "maybe it's a lateen if you look at it the right way", and moves the origin of the Mediterranean lateen back several centuries. 

 

Here in Ballarat it's rained all day with no let-up at all. The puddle we normally get in the back yard in heavy rain has become a lake. I'm stuck in the house with the cats (my wife's in warm sunny Brisbane visiting rels), so I've watched Sink The Bismark,The Dam Busters (hey, it's got water in it!) and The Emperor's New Clothes with Ian Holm (if you haven't seen it I'd highly recommend it - a wonderful, funny, inspiring alternative history about Napoleon). I don't know whether I'll watch Good Will Hunting next or The Right Stuff.

 

I know I should probably be "boating" (as my family call it) but I'm having a very lazy day off, not even shipbuilding.

 

Steven

Edited by Louie da fly

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You are very welcome Steven. I myself had started as well this year a study at the Cyprus State University. Once again after  more  than 35 years since I finished my studies in W.Germany. But this time only just for the fan of knowledge and the pleasure of learnig 😁

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

I've been meaning to post the pics I have of some blocks which I believe are from the Yenikapi excavations. They were very kindly sent to me by one of the archaeologists involved with the excavations, but they were sent to an old email address of mine which no longer exists, so I don't have a record of the email any more (sigh).

 

Unfortunately the accompanying captions are a little hard to follow, presumably because they are written by someone whose first language isn't English.

 

I believe the first one is likely to have been used in adjusting the shrouds - the function carried out by deadeyes in Western ships.

1178345562_Yenikapiblocks_0001.thumb.jpg.90ebf28f040213caa1cad947832256e2.jpg

The second one I really know nothing about, and it's so covered in mud it's hard to know very much about its configuration and there are so many odd bits of rope confusing the issue I really can't make head nor tail of it. But it looks quite weird - I really can't figure out how it was supposed to work. Is there a rope around it from a tapered wooden "base" piece? And if so, is that the sheave facing us - and if it is, is there really enough room for a rope to pass through? 

484839834_Yenikapiblocks_0002.thumb.jpg.7a489553bd5e3597cab6463536ad89af.jpg

Here's a block which appears pretty simple, though the first sentence in the caption is a bit confusing. The "short cylindrical handle" in the second sentence is presumably the spindle, but I can't figure out the bit about "one side flat, the other side narrowed" etc. It would be good to put this to use, but where?

846933345_Yenikapiblocks_0003.thumb.jpg.ac1a6bcf718d30175e3a9ecafb6ade31.jpg 

And two pictures, from two different angles. of a rather complex block with sheaves at right angles to each other.65191414_Yenikapiblocks_0004.thumb.jpg.60164dbfc41fea6b9a0318bd2c540d75.jpg

389494690_yenikapiblock2.thumb.jpg.82dcd1619a5b576752d7d1e085a7811d.jpg

Any light that can be shed on the possible purpose of this one would be gratefully received.

 

 

Steven

Edited by Louie da fly
Added extra photo of final block

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I hadn't seen your building site for several days, congratulations for updates and historical and technical analyzes, both at a high level!

 

Fabio (black wolf)

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

Steven,

Your second photo looks remarkably similar to a spritsail sheet block as fitted to English warships from the late 17th to mid 18th centuries. The drawings of these blocks in Lees Masting and Rigging book look almost identical. Just a thought but perhaps it had something to do with sail control.

 

Dave :dancetl6:

 

 

Edited by davyboy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for all the likes (though all  did was post some photos!), and thanks Fabio for the positive comments.

 

Druxey, I had another look at your earlier description of a shoe block, but I have to admit I can't figure out how they worked. Still, with a bit more consideration I might be able to find a way to use the thing.

 

Daveyboy, thanks for that information. Perhaps you're right; maybe it is used for sail control. It's really still very early days with the sails and rigging - I'm not really at the stage yet where I'm seriously looking at the way it all works, but when I get there I'll be able to put more consideration into what will have to go where and do what to what (if you see what I mean).

 

Steven

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That axe-wielder on deck looks like he's in a Varangian re-enactmrnt. If only we could find someone who knows about such goings-on... Amazing figures all of them, though, catching up with your masterpiece after a couple of weeks -- but is that a woodwind instrument for the oarsmen's rhythm a figure is holding or playing?

 

Nika.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Nikiforos said:

If only we could find someone who knows about such goings-on...

Erm . . . that would be me . . .😁

 

6 hours ago, Nikiforos said:

but is that a woodwind instrument for the oarsmen's rhythm a figure is holding or playing?

That's right. They appear quite often in contemporary pictures of ships under oars, and if I recall correctly are also mentioned in contemporary records as giving the time for the oarsmen. Apparently the sound of a flute or recorder is audible above all the sounds on shipboard, far better than other things. Using drums to give the time is apparently a Hollywood thing.

naumachia.jpg.e0943b7bdeb0d9b17b958f5245ef425d.jpg

Note the above ship has two flute players on board, and the guy on my model is taken from the one in blue. It appears the other one  is playing a flute with finger-holes - or would we call that a recorder?

 

Steven

 

 

 

Steven 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Interesting. I was talking to a military re-enactor on Saturday and I asked why the army (circa 1812) did not use speaking trumpets. He replied that the fife had the best carrying power over distances and amid other sound.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

More rigging items from the Yenikapi excavations in Istanbul - there seven of these in various archaeological reports, all very similar to one another, ranging from approx 10cm (4") to 24cm (9.4") in length, with dates from the 5th to the 10th/11th century AD.

1665109440_BelayingpinC5YenikapiMetro2.JPG.645f68f29777e6ea2b8431e60d156c32.JPG 1371855072_BelayingpinC5YenikapiMetro.JPG.8832f3c3c199b9c04677da441004ac02.JPG 1293289971_BelayingpinC9YenikapiMarmaray.thumb.JPG.894f06a5408408e13072765f111b81e5.JPG 119526396_BelayingpinC10-11YenikapiMarmaray20_5cm.JPG.b54085d47807cdb98c7b3395f761da33.JPG 106985470_BelayingpinC10-11YenikapiMarmaray109cm.JPG.f269b3d5ed1795d7ad444ff9f7a0a0b5.JPG 2073334396_BelayingpinC10-11YenikapiMarmaray24_5cm.JPG.c61dd6b57f5dd01eb64c7120430e3fc7.JPG 119414532_spool-fromIstanbul8000yrsbroughttodaylight.JPG.90765867d6148f53618162295e3357a9.JPG

These items are variously described as belaying pins, toggles, spools, or  "rope buckles". These names are probably a bit misleading, being translations from Turkish into English by archaeologists rather than mariners. Their purpose is described in one source as "used for coiling the rope of a sail to tighten it and then fasten it on the shroud." (again a little confusing).

 

But I think I have the answer to their real use. Have a look at the video of a (modern) lateener being rigged - and check out from 4:35 to 4:48 and 5:39 to 5:50.

 

 

It appears to be a quick-release joiner for the halyard (though I suppose it could have a similar use in other places). Very interesting!

 

Steven

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Steven, I've been watching your build and it is looking great. I thought I would show you a picture of how the toggles are used on my current build the Ragusian Galley(MarisStella). I realise mine is from the 18th century and probably not anything similar to yours but it maybe of interest to you.

 

IMG_2809.thumb.jpg.2967fca75ecd426b7ad7f84e3d40c158.jpg

I will gladly remove if you wish.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for the likes, and thanks Don for posting that picture. It seems to me that these things have been around doing the same job since at least the 5th century AD and right up to the present, so an 18th century example (which appears to be doing exactly the same thing as on the modern video) is right on the money. Interesting that there are two of them. One appears to be near the top of the halyard - is the other one also on the halyard, at the bottom?

 

Steven

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

About us

Modelshipworld - Advancing Ship Modeling through Research

SSL Secured

Your security is important for us so this Website is SSL-Secured

NRG Mailing Address

Nautical Research Guild
237 South Lincoln Street
Westmont IL, 60559-1917

About the NRG

If you enjoy building ship models that are historically accurate as well as beautiful, then The Nautical Research Guild (NRG) is just right for you.

The Guild is a non-profit educational organization whose mission is to “Advance Ship Modeling Through Research”. We provide support to our members in their efforts to raise the quality of their model ships.

The Nautical Research Guild has published our world-renowned quarterly magazine, The Nautical Research Journal, since 1955. The pages of the Journal are full of articles by accomplished ship modelers who show you how they create those exquisite details on their models, and by maritime historians who show you the correct details to build. The Journal is available in both print and digital editions. Go to the NRG web site (www.thenrg.org) to download a complimentary digital copy of the Journal. The NRG also publishes plan sets, books and compilations of back issues of the Journal and the former Ships in Scale and Model Ship Builder magazines.

Our Emblem

Modelshipworld - Advancing Ship Modeling through Research
×
×
  • Create New...