Question about stoves and how the rotisserie worked

[Modeler12]

There are several beautiful models of ship stoves I have seen that are made to scale with great details. Indeed there are several pieces of literature I have seen that show the same thing:

The pulleys and chains that drive the spit rods in front of the stove.  But did that actually work????

 

The idea was (and I don’t know if that was the inventor’s thoughts or not) that the smoke and hot air rising up the chimney would rotate a fan that was coupled to the spits. Note item 18 in the drawing below.

I say: nonsense. It takes a lot more than hot air to create the torque required to turn that rig (let alone the meat that would be on the spits). I think most of us have barbequed and used a rotisserie, and I know it takes some doing – by hand or an electric motor.

 

Here are a couple pictures about the ‘fan’, etc. But they are drawings or models, no real proof!
  

Does anyone know the story and history???

[GLakie]

Here's some pics of the Connie's stove as it is now Jay. 

 

 

[Modeler12]

Thanks George, 

That confirms that at least in the last remod of the USS Constitution they did not include the pulleys and spit rods.

In fact, I cannot imagine that the spits were used on a regular basis at sea. How many goats, chickens and pigs does it take to feed an army for a month or more?

An open grill with pots and pans would be more likely being used for the officer's meals. The coffee pot is a real winner.

 

Notice also that the chimney has no 'chamber with fan'. It goes directly into the stack.

Edited June 25, 2015 by Modeler12

[druxey]

A modern reproduction as shown neither proves or disproves whether the fan-driven device worked.

[shiloh]

Baffel perhaps.

[trippwj]

May I suggest reading the patent on the Brodie stove? Also, of interest, may be a book "Feeding Nelson's Navy". Provides a fascinating study of Napoleonic era logistics, nutrition, and more (including livestock).

[barkingmad]

The system of using the heat from the fire or stove to drive a fan which in turn rotated a spit was a common feature in most of Britain's large manor houses/halls/castles of the very wealthy landed gentry before the advent of electricity.  It you visit some of them today, you can still see the mechanism still in place in the kitchens.  This system did work.

 

Geoff

[allanyed]

For those that want to read the patent on the Brodie stove see the attached.  Spelling is as it appeared on the patent.....

 

Allan

Brodie Patent.pdf

Edited June 25, 2015 by allanyed

[Modeler12]

Having a patent does not mean that the proposed system actually works. 

However, if such a system was actually installed and operating in houses is an interesting side line and I would be interested in seeing any diagrams and pictures showing this.
 

I still maintain that a childish looking fan that rotates due to hot air passing over its blades cannot and will not produce enough energy and torque to drive gears and pulleys to rotate roasting spits. The amount of air and its velocity would have to be tremendous to do so. Besides the design leaves a lot to be desired if the exterior shaft comes out horizontally and the fan drives its shaft vertically. That involves more gears than necessary and its maintenance would be deplorable.

 

If the device really worked, why was it taken away on the USS Constitution? Do other ships that remain have this feature?

Edited June 25, 2015 by Modeler12

[barkingmad]

George Washington had such a device in the kitchen of his Mount Vernon home.  See the article at:  http://foodhistorjottings.blogspot.co.uk/2011/11/view-up-presidents-chimney.html

[trippwj]

Having a patent does not mean that the proposed system actually works. 

However, if such a system was actually installed and operating in houses is an interesting side line and I would be interested in seeing any diagrams and pictures showing this.

 

I still maintain that a childish looking fan that rotates due to hot air passing over its blades cannot and will not produce enough energy and torque to drive gears and pulleys to rotate roasting spits. The amount of air and its velocity would have to be tremendous to do so. Besides the design leaves a lot to be desired if the exterior shaft comes out horizontally and the fan drives its shaft vertically. That involves more gears than necessary and its maintenance would be deplorable.

 

If the device really worked, why was it taken away on the USS Constitution? Do other ships that remain have this feature?

 

The Brodie Stove was the Royal Navy standard until improved designs came out around 1810.  In the US, we have records indicating that a "Camboose" was ordered for the Boston Frigate Committee (not the Constitution, but rather the subscription frigate) and then purchased by the Salem Committee building the Essex (see Appendices, page 224 in Smith, P.C.F. 1974. The Frigate Essex Papers: Building the Salem Frigate, 1798-1799. Salem [Mass.]: Peabody Museum of Salem.)

 

Why was the galley stove in the Constitution changed?  For the same reason many things change - upgrades, improvements and so on.

 

 

Did the stove work?  Apparently!  See the example in HMS Victory at http://www.hms-victory.com/things-to-see/galleyfor one extant example.

Edited June 25, 2015 by trippwj

[wq3296]

Greetings Mod...

 

Relative to the fan operated by hot air: ever hear of a turbocharger? Your car or truck may have one. They were also used on some piston driven aircraft in WWII. The operating principal for a turbocharged engine is that the hot exhaust gas resulting from internal combustion is routed via ducting to the turbocharger. The hot exhaust gas spins a turbine wheel (fan if you will) located on the inlet side of the turbo. There is a compressor wheel attached to the turbine wheel via a shaft that spins when the inlet turbine wheel spins. This wheel compresses fresh air taken into the turbo which is ducted to the engine's intact manifold under pressure. Of course, there is more to this, but it should prove to you that hot air properly directed is easily capable of performing work. Finally, thrust from a jet engine is produced from combustion heat spinning a turbine.

 

wq3296

[robnbill]

I think the proof they worked is in the widespread and continued use of them on land and in many galleys at sea. History shows numerous examples of genius apparatus that were built - one time. When they did not work, or were not efficient, they were discarded to the historical rubbish bin. It is very easy to to find examples of this spit on many different stoves over many years. In fact if I recall correctly there was a period where Connie had a side wheel installed.

 

Why was Connie's changed out? I think as her roll changed she was modified to fit it. We also know from history most of the times she was refit, she was poorer afterwards. The downward spiral continued until she was almost scrapped. There is an excellent article on the Connie's stove and it's history on the restoration site. The link is below.

 

Constitution Stove

[Modeler12]

Greetings Mod...

 

Relative to the fan operated by hot air: ever hear of a turbocharger? Your car or truck may have one. They were also used on some piston driven aircraft in WWII. The operating principal for a turbocharged engine is that the hot exhaust gas resulting from internal combustion is routed via ducting to the turbocharger. The hot exhaust gas spins a turbine wheel (fan if you will) located on the inlet side of the turbo. There is a compressor wheel attached to the turbine wheel via a shaft that spins when the inlet turbine wheel spins. This wheel compresses fresh air taken into the turbo which is ducted to the engine's intact manifold under pressure. Of course, there is more to this, but it should prove to you that hot air properly directed is easily capable of performing work. Finally, thrust from a jet engine is produced from combustion heat spinning a turbine.

 

wq3296

Your example reinforces my whole concept. Turbochargers operate on the basis of lots of hot air going through the propeller (impeller) at high speed and lots of volume. This does not compare at all with a simple chimney and the upward flow of air coming from a fireplace.

If an impeller were to be installed in your fireplace and it should become over burdened, the effect would be like a damper being closed. And you know where the smoke and fumes would go?

 

Rob, you and others keep telling me that the contraption was used all over the seas and on land and I am waiting to see proof of that. Do you have a print, painting or photograph of this? The example of the museum stove for the Victory is the first I have seen. Thank you.

 

I am not saying rotary spits were not commonly used at sea. But they were probably operated by one of those young boys turning a crank. 

Edited June 25, 2015 by Modeler12

[DocBlake]

Modeler12:  If your contention is that the spit was hand cranked by cabin boys or crew, then there is an important design feature you must explain.  Why the elaborate gear and chain setup connecting the lower spit (which you presumed was hand-cranked as the only source of power) with the upper shaft which passes through the flue and is attached to a fan?  Totally unnecessary and superfluous according to your theory.  Why was it there?  What function did it serve?  As you know, there was nothing on a ship that didn't serve a purpose.

Edited June 25, 2015 by DocBlake

[trippwj]

Jay - see the HMS Victory link I posted above as a starting point on the Brodie stove that would have been an addition to the Victory at some point.

 

As to the prevalence of the Brodie Stove - there are many references in British Naval History documents (both recent compilations as well as contemporary documents). 

 

According to William Watson, (1968. Alexander Brodie and His Firehearths for Ships. The Mariner’s Mirror 54, no. 4: 409–412. http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/00253359.1968.10659464):

 

In 1781, Alexander Brodie produced from his Carey Street works a new kind of fire-hearth which greatly impressed the Commissioners of the Navy Board. Without delay they ordered that no hearths and stoves of the old type were to be purchased and they entered into a comprehensive contract with Brodie, granting him a monopoly of the supply of ships' hearths to the Royal Navy. This privilege he enjoyed throughout twentynine of the most arduous years in British naval history.

 

Also see http://uwf.edu/anthropologyapp/mardigras/artifacts/stove/for a discussion of the Brodie Stove and relation to period shipwrecks.

 

Here is a link to some photo's at the Royal Museum of a Brodie stove:

 

http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/37331.html

 

Here is the 1820 arrangements for each deck on the Constitution.  Unfortunately, the details of the galley are not clear.

87196001.pdf

 

Back to the question as to whether it worked, all indications are that it worked.  how well and how efficiently are other questions - the fact that the Navy Commissioners granted Brodie a monopoly to supply stoves implies that it worked well enough for the intended use!

 

 

[Modeler12]

Modeler12:  If your contention is that the spit was hand cranked by cabin boys or crew, then there is an important design feature you must explain.  Why the elaborate gear and chain setup connecting the lower spit (which you presumed was hand-cranked as the only source of power) with the upper shaft which passes through the flue and is attached to a fan?  Totally unnecessary and superfluous according to your theory.  Why was it there?  What function did it serve?

That is exactly my point. Why do models and literature show those elaborate gears and chain when it did no good?

 

My theory is not that they are not shown, but that the fan did not put out enough energy with simple hot air blowing through the blades.

Indeed, hot air can rotate a blade held in the stream as it rises (we have all seen the Christmas toys with a couple candles and the rotated merry-go-round). But to power a rotisserie that has meat hanging from it (and poor bearings along the way) requires more than a fireplace fan.

[Modeler12]

Thank you Wayne for that detailed explanation about the Brodie Stove and how he got a monopoly on his stove design. It was my understanding that Mr. Brodie got his contract on the basis of the whole new design of using cast iron and other features to replace old brick furnaces, etc. 

The use of the fan, pulleys and chain were not specifically mentioned (but I may be wrong there).

 

To add fuel to the fire, let me also question the use of the distillation pipe at the back of the oven. I believe that could work, but was very complicated and produced very limited amounts of distilled water. Perhaps enough for use by the physician (if he even knew the benefit of using pure water to treat wounds). I doubt that the pipe lasted very long with all the other activities taking place behind the stove.

[trippwj]

Good point, Jay - as to the pulleys and chains, they appear to be a feature of all models (contemporary and modern) of the stove, so implication is that it was a part of the stove. 

 

As to the water, see Macdonald, J. 2004. Feeding Nelson’s Navy: The True Story of Food at Sea in the Georgian Era. 1. publ. Pennsylvania: Stackpole Books (ISBN 9781861762337) for a good description of how it was used.  She also provides a wonderful description of the tight space around the stove and the use in preparation of food.

[Alex M]

Here is a page about kitchen fireplace in Aston Hall: http://www.schoolsliaison.org.uk/astonhall/candles/spits/firplace.htm

 

Alex

[barkingmad]

_{Modeler12:  I suspect that even if someone was able to produce a painting from the period showing the rotisserie in use you would not take that as proof.} 

_{The mechanism employed the use of a worm screw.  This type of gearing gives very little resistance and while the impellor would turn relitvely fast, the spit would turn slowly and be still efficient enough to cook a piece of meat.}

Edited June 25, 2015 by barkingmad

[dvm27]

Thank for the link to the beautiful model, Wayne. Certainly useful for anyone contemplating building one. I was trying to figure out the scale as it is so detailed.The size of the model works out to @ 13" x 10" x 10" so that explains the quality and level of detail. 

[Modeler12]

Well, I am about to give in to all those articles and pictures I see. If this was such a marvelous system, I am surprised that it did not last in history (despite the invention of electricity).

 

I am in the process of adding a stove to my cross section and that raised the question in my mind. I will not add the pulley system but will show a couple spits in front (hand cranked) and the grill top as shown in the photograph Wayne Tripp showed about the galley on the Victory. I hope I can make some pots and pans to go with it (but the scale 1:76 is rather small for my eyes to handle).

 

Just a final comment to Barkingmad: I am really not the kind of person who does not believe any thing he reads. But I do believe in questioning something I think is not right. This was one of those times.

Edited June 25, 2015 by Modeler12

[barkingmad]

Modeler12 I fully understand and no malice or criticism was intended.  I wrote that sentence with a smile on my face.

 

Regards

 

Geoff

[trippwj]

Questioning is good, Jay - how else do we learn? 

 

Apparently the next big improvement came about in 1810, when the monopoly was toppled with the Lamb and Nicholson stove. This stove came with a much improved still that was capable of producing at least four gallons of fresh water a day. In addition, the new Lamb and Nicholson stove was advertised to use less fuel and the stove was constructed with three boilers.

 

I will, when time allows, see what I can find about that stove as well.

[Modeler12]

Indeed, Wayne, and I keep being amazed with people like you who have such a large source of information both in your head and on your shelves. Thanks for sharing.

[wq3296]

Greetings Mod,

 

No, turbochargers don't run on lots of hot air. They take in hot gases produced by combustion which have expanded to many times their original volume as a result of combustion heat. Accordingly, because of this increase in volume the velocity of the of the heated gas increases per unit area of the ducting. In other words, a heated gas flowing through a fixed orifice will have a greater velocity than the same gas at ambient temperature because it occupies a larger volume. See gas laws in any physics book. The hot gases produced by the fuel burning in the combustion chamber of the oven, if hot enough, would have been sufficient to perform work i.e. turning the fan in the flue. The reason why firemen chop holes in a roof during a fire is to release combustion gas caused buy the fire before it reaches sufficient pressure to blow the windows out or the roof off.

 

Given the amount of evidence to the contrary, you need to rethink your position.

 

wq3296 

[mtaylor]

My $0.02 (US) into this...  the spits were probably not used all that much.  Usually, from what I've read, roasted meats were "officers" only and then only until the livestock supply ran out which was pretty quick.  Some ships did carry chicken coops for egg production but again... officers only.  Given the limited space... a couple cows, pigs, or sheep in the manager and some chickens. Other issues would have been hay, feed, and cleaning up the mess the critters made.

[Buick nut]

It is very plausible that it could work have you ever heard of a Venturi? It more like the smokestack and hood upside down the hotter the exhaust is the faster it will rush past the fan blades turning them and in turning what is ever on the end of the shaft, oh BTW if you don't know what a Venturi is it basically was on most if not all cars at one time before fuel injectors were invented so yes I very much could if not did work at one time

[druxey]

A childhood memory came back to me as I read these posts. At Christmas we had a decoration known as 'Swedish Chimes' which worked on this principle. There was a merry-go-round with four sheet brass angels with small rod-like weights suspended from them. These were attached to a multi-bladed fan. Below were four small candles. When the candles were lit, these angels would whirl around, the weights striking small chimes suspended below them. I remember that (without any Venturi effect!) an effort was required to stop the merry-go-round with one's fingers. Admittedly there was centrifugal force developed, but....

 

A quick Internet check shows that these chimes are still around. My money would bet that, with a good fire below, the rotisserie worked.