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Drawing with quota, exist?


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Exist metrical drawing of all the ship like this drawing:

 

http://www.craftsmanspace.com/…/ship_wheel_assembly_2d_draw…
http://www.craftsmanspace.com/…/f…/ship_wheel_parts_list.jpg
http://www.craftsmanspace.com/free-pro…/ship-wheel-plan.html

 

Hum!? If yes, where can I find it?

 

EDIT: In other words, I'm looking for technical drawing of the ship, like this:

picture1.jpg

Edited by Jhenrique
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Hi jhenrique

 

Can I offer a suggestion - It may help if we understood what you needed it for, or what you intended to do with these detailed drawings?  For example, are you intending to build one?  If we knew that, I'm sure people here would be able to help you better.

 

Cheers

 

Patrick

Edited by Omega1234
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What I want is model a ship in a 3D software. I did this job:

 

Sem_t_tulo22.png

 

But, I had this drawings:

 

image.png

image.png

image.png

 

(Source: Desenhista de Máquinas - Pro-tec - Engº F. Provenza)

 

I don't know how model a ship without the technical drawing of same ship. Is possible to model a ship from these called "plans", that are approximate drawings. But, I want to model a ship with precision.

Edited by Jhenrique
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I don't know... these drawings seems more with technical illustration than technical drawing...

 

Look this video:

 

For any automatic machine fabricate any piece, is necessary to inform it with a drawing that has the contours very well specified geometrically.

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I think you're looking for true engineering detail drawings.   I just don't think you'll find those.  There are some plans that have details but not to the degree you're asking about.  If it's an older wooden ship, the plans are basically within a few inches...more or less.   They were hand drawn.  It's probable that some of the newer ships do have very detailed engineering drawings but getting a copy of those will probably be difficult, if not impossible.

 

 

I guess the questions we have are... what ship?  what type of ship?  what era?  and what are you doing with the plans?  CNC, kit making?  3D super detailed down to the last nut and bolt?

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Jhenrique,

I don't think you will find what you are seeking.

 

I am a professional Naval Architect and shipbuilder. The last vessel I built had a drawing package of approximately 15,000 documents ranging from 1 to several hundred sheets or pages each. Simply too much data to present as a single drawing.

 

Classic vessels were typical built by craftsmen working off physical models and rules of thumb. Then came lofting & molding of templates off tables of offsets. Now numeric models feed directly into automated cutters that nest as many parts as possible from a single plate. Often, layout instructions are burned directly onto the pieces.

 

R/

Jerry

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You might design a ship with several cross sections using circular curves that can be described using chord segments and radius having the PT and PC's tangent but every cross section between them would be transition spirals, 'constantly changing radius'. Spirals are hard to work with, we used to stake C/L using offsets from the back tangent, for the described C/L curves.Then to stake the edge of pavement or ROW we needed to do so from that marked spiral center line and go perpendicular the needed distance to be truly parallel, parallel spirals do not exist on the same plane, your computer will compute one that is close but not truly parallel. Ships tend to be made up with constantly changing radius curves in all directions, you can draw the horizontal segments of the hull from the keel up or in the other direction to the shape you need, then create the needed cross sections to obtain the shape of the ribs, don't believe it is done the other way around. There are people on this board who design vessels for a living, I don't, but as a Registered Land Surveyor I have worked with curves. Route Location and  Design by Hickerson will probably explain all you will ever want to know about curves and provide the tables that will make it easier to work with them, remember this work was done before computers, my copy is the 5th addition, copyright renewal 1964, 'Library of Congress Card Number 99-25479'. Math and Geometry does not change.

jud

Edited by shiloh
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I'd like of buy a galleon, actually, several galleons, because I think them very very beautiful! And I'd learn to model ship too. But, how happens that these two things are off my reach, I thought to model a ship in a 3D software with the hope of print the ship when the cost of the 3D printer reduce.

 

However, I see now that to model a ship is more dificult than seems... At last for me that I'm inexperienced.

Very interesting know that
don't exist technical drawing of wooden ships and that they are, practically, monumental craftworks!

 

15,000 documents for a ship!? How many documents exists for a boeing 747!?

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I worked in a factory of automobilistic plastic and I realized that 1/3 or 1/4 of the drawings was bureaucracy...

 

---

 

So, how can I, someone inexperienced in modeling, model some wooden ship in a 3D software?

 

How much more I distance of the original model, more I tend to model a ship like this: http://orig09.deviantart.net/db87/f/2013/083/1/7/the_clockwork_pirateship_by_chasingartwork-d5z52e2.jpg

 

http://estaticos02.expansion.com/albumes/2010/10/19/galeon/1287481392_extras_albumes_0.jpg

http://www.sevillaactualidad.com/images/stories/imagen/andalucia/cultura/programas/guadalquivirriodehistoria/galeon-andalucia-dic-07.jpg

http://www.calmadigital.info/uploads/2008/12/galeon.jpg

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Jhenrique,

 

With reference to modeling in 3D software, DELFTShip is a free naval architectural 3D drafting program. You can import a table of offsets provided from good references or you can construct a 3D model from scratch referring to three standard plan views. Search this forum for references to "DELFTShip" for discussions on how to do that. 

 

Terry

Edited by CDR_Ret
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Hate to be a stick in the mud, but uploading a 121 page PDF of a recently copyrighted reference book doesn't constitute "fair use" under any country's copyright law. May I suggest that you remove the HMS Victory AoS from your earlier post?

 

I was not me! I found it in the google, actually, in the first page of the google!

 

And about this galleon:

 

 

EDIT: look this too:

 

 

Was it built without technical drawing? Was it built of craft way!? If exist drawings with measures and geometric details, will be that the responsible engineer would give to me?

Edited by Jhenrique
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Hello Jhenrique, 

 

I really like your angle. I have done several models using Solidworks and Autocad and had some suspicion that there must be a better way to draw the ships in 3D. I think you have the right idea and I am most interested in helping you find the measurements you are looking for. 

 

I have heard about the deck curves (crown specifically) being 1/50th of the width of the ship at any specific bulkhead but that is the only measurement I have ever heard of. You are absolutely right that there must be many more similar relations. 

 

Am I correct in assuming you are looking for something other than tables of offsets? If so, please let me know as I think it would be most interesting to work on this. 

 

Best Regards, 

 

Rick 

Thanks for you moral support.

 

 

But, I practically desisted of this ideia. Think with me: What we want is build a ship. So the first ideia is use something that floats over the water. A shape of wood do it. But, we want more confort, so, the ideia would be to build a border around of the shape, for the water don't rise over the shape. So, the ship would be like a box, like Noah's Ark.

 

But, someone in somewhere and in some time discovered that the hull in form of curve is better that in form of square and modeled a curve hall. There the things begins to be complicated, because curves are forms of express beauty. But, how much more beauty, less utility, and how much more utility, less beauty (I recommend the video “why beauty matters”, of Roger Scruton, it’s very interesting!).  So, the architect/engineer that designed/projected the hull of a big ship, like the HMS Victory, how do it? He do it aiming the utility, the beauty or the two things (and in which proportion)!?

 

 

If he aimed the beauty, so which artistic principles he used for designed the hull? And which tools? French curve, compass, other? If they aimed the practical utility, which were the principles of engineer that he used for projected the hull? Principles of physics, mathematics, resistance of materials, mechanics of fluid… The if he got the ideal curve, he simplified the curve for be designed and built the existent tools? (It’s common in mechanics technical drawing ellipses and other curves more complex be designed with compass)

 

 

And once time that you already know why the author thinked the ship this or that form, why he used the “A” tool and not the “B”, etc, I think that you can pass for the next step: paper, pencil, eraser, ruler and compass. And what I think incrible is that the plans about these big galleons haven’t measures! The ships were built in the base of “eyemeter”! Well, this is possible, but the plans haven’t none measures and line of constructions of were erased.

 

 

The measures you still can erase, but the line of constructions not! The old Greeks did mathematics with ruler and compass (https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desenho_geom%C3%A9trico), the quadratic formula can be wrote in the geometric form. The Greeks were crazy with root square of negative number because they didn’t can to drawing it. In ther words, the measures can be suppressed, but the proportions and constructions not! Because the drawing lost precision. The plans haven’t geometric constructions, haven’t measures, haven’t anything the express precision! Just the final lines…

 

 

I think that is possible to find the formula geometric and the measures of plans, but, is lot of work for a few result... Maybe, the proper author of ship designed it without none preoccupation with precision…

 

 

So, these are same questions behind the project of a ship. We can still model wooden ship without understand these principles, but is like a monkey that drives a car without understand the principles of engineer of motor.

Edited by Jhenrique
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Hi Again,

 

Have a look at my thread on the construction of the Mary Rose, in 3D. I used Solidworks to build that. 

 

http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/topic/9105-148-scale-mary-rose-laser-cut-short-kit/

 

This is what I consider a very basic way to build a model. After all the work that has been done, it is really only an interpretation of the original. Perhaps it is 95% accurate. If I understand correctly, you are looking for the geometry that was used to draw the curves in the first place. Is that correct? In other words, you want the radius of the circles used to create the shape of the hull at each station and the relations of those curves to each other. If I understand correctly, you think that there is a way to insert these circles into the software and generate the shape of the hull accordingly. 

 

Well, your method would certainly work! it is quite simple to create such curves in a series of planes in your software, and then join then using appropriate tools to create a surface. 

 

As a 3D designer, I can tell you this is common practice. Now, how do we find the radii for your ship?????

 

Regards, 

Rick 

 

Oh yeah! I saw your work! It's a good job!

 

Actually, I'm not trying to do just the hull with precision, but yes all the ship. The hull is the just the first step.

 

But, I already noticed that is more easy died, go to other world and ask directly for the author how he did the plan of the ship than try discovery the measures and the implicit line of constructions. In other words, I don’t think that I will get to redraw the ship with 100% of geometric precision. I think too that the better that I can do is what you saw in the first page in this topic (that certainly would be better than is drawing: http://dibugraficmaquetasdigitalesgaleon.blogspot.com.es/(Look, is an interesting drawing! But, the author used just lines for make this, was a littler quadratic…)).

 

For you that already has finished ships of wood and the plans too, is more easy model a virtual ship in a software 3D. I haven’t none ship of wood, neither none full set of plans. This is my first attempt of model a ship (in a 3D software). I bealive that the better that I can do is to model a ship with line and circles (the two principal tools of draw of engineering) and I bealive that the final result will be a good ship! But, I’d like to model the internal part too, like a true ship, like this: (

). I wouldn’t like to model the internal part of the hull like you did (I just would do like you did if don’t exist other better alternative).

 

OBS: today, geometric precision is very important! Don’t forget that this ship keeps erect because the pieces are precisely projected and mounted (WITHOUT GLUE). http://allaboutthebricks.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/Lego-pirate-ship.jpg

Edited by Jhenrique
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Not sure that, in the absence of evidence to the contrary, we can assume that backfitting geometric rules to extant plans will automatically yield what the original designers had in mind. We know from historical writings that the Greek architects used the Golden Mean for designing their temples. But I suspect that in the early days of designing ocean-going ships, the forms developed based on regional perceptions of what worked and what didn't. And a lot of the designing was done on the building ways by eye and experience, not by compass and straight edge in the loft. Later on, when marine underwriters and governments began establishing rules for insuring and taxing ships and their cargoes, the designs shifted to maximize real cargo capacity while minimizing the tonnage under the rules. This approach resulted in designs that no geometer would have been proud of!

 

Terry

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