REVENGE by John Maguire - Amati/Victory Models - build in the Cougar Mountain Shipyard

[DocBlake]

Bummer, John.  I'm sure there is a fix, though.  You've gotten around challenging problems before.  It's hard for us to float ideas to possibly help without the kit in front of us, but there are some Revenge builders out there who've been down this road and should be able to help.  Good luck!

[John Maguire]

Doc; Thanks.

 

Two other folks posting build logs are ahead of me and I think I have seen indications that there are an additional two who are not posting. I hope to hear comments from them. 

 

I can see what needs to be done but would like to hear from someone ahead of me who has possibly encountered this situation before I begin carving up a kit supplied component. There is always the possibility I am doing something wrong or overlooking something.

 

In point of fact I have a fair way to go before this issue would become a factor. I only discovered it by looking a long way ahead to verify fits.

 

Respectfully,

John Maguire

[Elijah]

Too bad about the piece. It's always good to look ahead! Good luck!

[Emelbe]

Hi John

 

I shouldn't worry too much about it not matching the plan, must admit I never did.  You should find the pieces supplied are fine, I never modified any of the structural MDF parts and all went well.  In fact I wouldn't recommend modifying any of the parts as they're pretty much integral to fitting the side panels accurately. The Gunport surrounds need fitting properly which, if I remember correctly, means removing some of the material, but that's all it will need. The door openings are very close to the formers, but again don't worry too much, once the etched brass doors/surrounds are fitted you won't see that, (unless you decide to leave them wide open and make a captains table etc.!!!!).

 

Looking good so far, and you seem to be moving the build on nicely.  One tip, when you come to fitting the lower side panels reinforce the joins, if you look at my log you should see what I mean, just a case of cutting a bit of the spare MDF to glue to the formers, gives you a bit more to pin the panels to.

 

Hope I've been some help, must crack on and do a progress report on mine, been a bit lazy recently (think it's a bit of Seasonal Affected Disorder).  

 

Best Regards

 

Martin

[John Maguire]

Martin,

 

Thank you very much for taking the time to respond with so much detail. Yes, I study your build and Denis's thoroughly . Particularly as I move into new areas.

 

As I continue to study my situation I have found that part 20 and the corresponding thin plywood piece are each slightly different than what I see if I hold either of them up against the plans. However, when I fit them to the ship and align the plywoods lower notches to the the correct part of their respective frames, as shown on the plans, everything works out perfectly. That includes attaching the piece ahead of it that runs forward to the bow. With those two pieces of plywood butted nose to nose I end up with a small overhang at bow and stern - both the same. Therefore, I do not have a problem - it is simply that the plans and manual are slightly different than the kit .  .  .  .

 

This all came about when I began to temporarily attach the ply wood as a guide for planking the rear transom deck I thought it prudent to see if other related things were going to come together OK later on. I didn't want to have a terrible surprise when it came time to attach the plywood permanently and discover there was a problem that couldn't be fixed.

 

I just looked at your time line from start to where you are at the moment and it shows a striking example of the time required of an experienced builder like yourself and me with no experience to speak of. This model is fascinating and I look forward to getting into it every morning.

 

Respectfully,

John

[John Maguire]

I have been involved with other things for the past month with model building and forum reading on hold. 

 

After completing required deck planking, hatch frames were placed, ladders built, some gun port frames attached and canon carriages mounted, all in sequence as called for in the builders builders manual.

 

I glued a block to the underside of interior mounted canon carriages in an attempt to insure they don't break loose. 

 

 

A couple of days were spent reading the builders manual and the two preexisting build logs in an attempt to correctly position the ply patterns. Once satisfied they have been pinned in preparation for glueing the lower sections. At this juncture, all are temporarily pinned in place to assure the overall correct positioning of all panels during subsequent construction.

 

 

Respectfully submitted,

John

Edited May 17, 2016 by John Maguire

[DenPink]

Hi John

 

Nice to see you back on your build again.

 

Re your cannon carriages, I take it that it is PVA glue you are using ??.

 

I think you will be better of using 2 part epoxy glue.

Don't forget to scratch some of the varnish off on the deck where the wheels touch the deck then put the epoxy glue on.

Or you can put a pin in that block, drill a hole in the deck, then put the epoxy on the pin and place it in the hole.

 

 

Denis.

[DocBlake]

Good to see you back at it, John.  I was wondering where you went!

 

I agree with the epoxy and scratching of the poly as Denis has suggested, although in reality, if those cannons are hidden and don't get jostled at all, the PVA should be fine.  Scratch off the poly, though.  PVA will not stick to it.

[John Maguire]

Thank you dear friends for the "Likes".

 

Yes, Denis and Doc, it was PVA glue. As you both suggested I went back in with two part epoxy. Excellent catch - thank you.

 

I am interspersing this project with another so progress is a little slower.  Also, there were many construction steps that required a day each for glue to dry.

 

I taped the various ply panels together, then, as a whole, they were manipulated for what seemed like the optimal position and pinned in place. The appropriate pin holes were subsequently used to locate and glue the appropriate sections into position.

 

Selective clamping of six individual ply panels while applying glue necessitated multi day drying - glue - a day to dry - glue - a day to dry, etc .  .  . about a week to glue the six panels.

 

After permanently attaching the panels the gun ports are seen here clamped in place.

 

 

I am adding liners to the gun ports. They overlap the ply so that when the planking is applied the ply edge won't be seen. This is the first one, unpainted, seen in a test fit. All the others liners are already fabricated and will be installed and painted after the gun port glue cures.

 

 

Respectfully submitted,

John Maguire

Edited May 27, 2016 by John Maguire

[David Lester]

Hi John,

I've seen different build logs for models that employ those pre-cut plywood panels for the gunport area of the hull and they always look to me as though they're a bit tricky to bend and position correctly. It must feel good to have that particular task finished. Your gunport liners look great.

David

[GuntherMT]

Hello John,

 

I managed to completely miss this build log, but it's good to see how you are doing and I'm caught up and aware of it now!

 

Great work so far.

[donrobinson]

looks good John

[DocBlake]

Glad to see you back at it, John!  Nice job on the bulwarks, and your gunport liners look to be spot on.  Keep it up!

[John Maguire]

Thank you dear friends for the "Likes".

 

David, yes, the ply panels had both horizontal and vertical curves. While very thin it was surprisingly stiff. During the dry fit I experimented with suitable fasteners to ensure a tight fit in both planes. My locator holes were marked so once the glue was applied it was easy to get the pieces where they belonged. Sixty minute epoxy was used to allow ample time for adjustment.  I am satisfied with the result.

 

Brian, thank you for checking in. I am most pleased to welcome you aboard and look forward to checking out your own projects.

 

Doc, thank you for commenting. I continue to be in awe with your build.

 

Denis, yes, liners would not work for the small cannons fore & aft but to my eye are suitable for all the mid ship positions. I believe I'll like their appearance when the final planking is applied.

 

All the intended liners are in position and painted now. 

 

As I've seen others do in similar circumstances I have constructed a mount to hold the hull securely for planking and used soft ribbed rubber strips on the edges that are in contact with the ship.

 

 

I have a days tasking to make minor adjustments in the stem area, recheck fair lays, then begin the first planking. With no planking experience but having read the work of dozens of the rest of you and also studying many different techniques I plan to approach the first planking with the attitude that it is the final planking. Clearly, reading about it and doing it are vastly different. I want to do this so that my final planking with good wood and that I want to look nice isn't in point of fact my first attempt.

 

To that end, when I do the first plank layer I plan to use David Antscherl's dissertation and line off the hull in a suitable number of five plank bands. I'll do the same for the finish layer.

 

Can there be a suitable reason to not go slowly and learn?

 

Respectfully,

John Maguire

Cougar Mtn. Shipyard

 

PS: two of my other hobbies (ham radio and bikes)

 

 

 

[mtaylor]

John,

 

It's not a race so take all the time you need.  That's part of the fun and relaxation of this hobby... no rush!

[DenPink]

Hi John

 

You are doing a great job so far, keep up the good work.

 

Good luck with your planking, take your time.

 

 

Denis.

[John Maguire]

Thank you for the many "Likes" .  .  .  .

 

May I respectfully ask for an opinion by some of you who are experienced with planking? As previously stated, I am trying to learn how to line out my hull. Having read your many accounts but never done so myself I want to gain experience by practicing on the first planking so that I have a little more experience when doing the second. I recognize at least three techniques. Antscherl suggests defining the bands with threads and moving them to make the plank flow look pleasing to the eye. Another method suggests using battens of the intended planking material. Yet another maps the dimension of each frame and creates a "plank list" with intended widths of each plank at each position on every frame. So far I have lined out samples of the first two techniques. I have made no attempt to map - yet.

 

The first step I took was to lay five planks adjacent to the keel at midships and mark their cumulative width on several frames. The paper clips show where I made that initial measurement.

 

Next, using that measurement I laid out thread on one side of the hull. On the other side I laid several battens taking care to allow each to follow its natural lay - in other words, only bending to the frames.

 

Battens laid flat against the frames produced what I believe to be an unsatisfactory result at the stern.

 

Threads run in a manner that looked somewhat reasonable to my eye looked like this at the stern.

 

The bow looks like this.

 

It appears to me that neither technique is working well. I feel like the use of battens should be ruled out - horrible need for dropped planks AND steelers at the stern.

 

The threads might be moved around to achieve a reasonable appearance. 

 

Will I do well to get a little more technical and create a "plank table" that shows how wide each plank should be at each position on every frame?

 

Thank you for your time looking at this series of questions.

 

Respectfully,

John

[GuntherMT]

I used the first method, but instead of thread I used narrow Tamiya tape, easy to move around and sticks where I put it without using glue or anything.  I didn't create any tables or 'plans', I just got the strips where they looked about right to my eye, and then used the 'tick strip' method of measuring the width of the planks for trimming them.

 

Seems to have worked out pretty well, so I see no need to get all complicated with spreadsheets and tables.  Will that bite me in the future builds?  Who knows!

[John Maguire]

Brian,

 

Thank you for that info. Could you please describe the tick strip method? 

 

When you adjusted your thread bands did you try to maintain a constant distance between them?

 

Do you consider where your drop planks, spiles and steelers when you are making the bands wider or narrower?

 

Thank you,

John

[mtaylor]

John,

 

The battens and the thread looked pretty good from the pictures.  Look everything over from one end, and then the other end until you're pleased with the plank run.   You'll be tapering the planks so use the tick strip method between the battens/string to get the plankwidths at each bulkhead.  In other words, if it's say 5 full size planks at the midship line (largest area/bulkhead), then as you move for and aft you'll see that those 5 plank will probably narrow.  Since this is a kit and spiling may not be possible with the planking materials, drop planks and stealers will work.  

 

Have look here:  http://modelshipworldforum.com/ship-model-framing-and-planking-articles.php   The Chuck tutorials do explain the tick strips pretty well.

[GuntherMT]

The tick strip method is probably better explained by reading the PDF that is in the NRG resources for planking a hull.  Go here - http://modelshipworldforum.com/ship-model-framing-and-planking-articles.php

 

I'm fairly sure that you want the 'lining off the hull' article by Chuck Passaro.

 

I adjusted the bands by eye for what I thought was a pleasing 'flow', with no consideration given at all to any of the things you are worried about.  I made drop planks or stealers whenever I got to the point where I realized that I needed them, and I alternated sides of the hull (by band, not by individual strake) and just made them as close to the same as possible on either side.

 

I know some people think that drop planks or stealers are a crime suitable to be hanged for, but they were used in the real world ships when needed, so if I'm not following a real planking plan that exists for a ship (i.e. like the Cheerful), then I'm just going to wing it.  I think drop planks and stealers add a very nice 'look' to a natural finish hull (as long as they aren't overdone).

[John Maguire]

Mark & Brian,

 

Thank you very much for your time. I do have all the guides from that web page already but it is in addition to other info and that ends up being so much that I wasn't sure which path to follow. Using wood battens and letting them flow "naturally" was one of the many techniques but as seen, that did not work for this hull shape.

 

I do like doing bands and will go in that direction. I will edge glue some planks when spilling becomes necessary.

 

How about plank length? This transom style lends itself nicely to using single length planks.

 

Respectfully,

John

[GuntherMT]

I used scale plank lengths, actually a bit short at 16' scale, but they worked out well for my hull size.  I think 20-25' is generally accepted as how long planks were generally used.

 

If you want to use full lengths though, and you are happy with how that looks, then that's all that really matters.  I purposely used different colors of walnut on my final planking to make the different planks stand out for the appearance, so it's all about personal taste I think.

[mtaylor]

Hmm... plank length..  Hull... closer to 32-36 foot depending....at the time of Revenge, there was still a lot of old, tall oaks in Blighty.  Decks.. 20-25...   But you can go with one full length strip instead of scale length.  Modeler's choice.

[John Maguire]

Thank you Brian & Mark,

 

I have lined out the hull again and am attaching a bunch of pictures to solicit critiques. After a couple of days I'll remove the pictures so that I'm not eating a lot of forum data storage with trash.

 

This scheme probably won't need dropped planks at the bow or steelers at the stern though admittedly it will take a bunch of spiles. Is that a bad thing? I plan to edge glue planks to achieve enough width to enable spilling.

 

I particularly like the somewhat flat angle that the planks are at approaching the stem.

 

Please comment - I'll delete all the pictures in a couple of days.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Respectfully,

John

 

 

 

 

Edited June 10, 2016 by John Maguire

[GuntherMT]

The lining off certainly looks fine to me from the photo's, but ultimately it's your eyes on the hull that will be what makes the call, and it if 'looks' good, it probably is!

 

As for the photo's, no reason to remove them, as it's the process photo's like this that someone else can potentially learn a lot from later when they are looking at your log trying to figure this step out for themselves.  Storage space is pretty darned cheap and plentiful these days, so I certainly wouldn't be worried about the space they are taking up, as that is sort of the entire purpose of having everyone post build logs!

[Jimz66]

Looking really good John. Keep it going. I will be watching this one closely. 

[mtaylor]

I quite agree with Brian, John. Leave the photos as they will help someone.

 

Looking pretty good.   How does it look from dead astern and dead foreward?   Down low I should add.

 

Spiling isn't a bad thing.  It can get a bit tedious but once you get into the rhythm, it flows well.  I had to spile just about every strake on my current build.  

[DocBlake]

It looks good, John.  I'd leave the photos.  I agree they may help others later.  Keep up the good work!

[John Maguire]

Thank you - everyone - for your constructive comments. I appreciate the many "likes" as well. Your cumulative support is important.

 

Accordingly, I continued to appraise it from all imaginable angles and this morning used card strips to transfer the lines to the other side, then removed superfluous markings and plainly marked both sides of the hull.

 

Chuck Passero's CHEERFUL build has a nearly identical stern and though his bow is sharper than my bluff shape there is much to be gained by close inspection of his plank runs. 

 

Today I shaped the two garboards, mirroring them for uniformity and beveling as necessary approaching the stern where the planks twist. Looking at CHEERFUL gave me confidence in the shape of the bow end of my garboards.

 

If any of you have time, please comment on your preferences for glue and the reasons why you like what you use. If it is super glue, what consistency and do you glue one frame at a time?

 

Again, thank you for your time.

 

Respectfully,

John