Deben 5-tonner by vaddoc - FINISHED - Scale 1:10 - a Whisstock yard design

[vaddoc]

Today I installed the first of the ribs. I did some simple calculations to position the ribs along the sheer plank. I also got the special Dremel disk to cut some of the frames to make space. It cut the wood like hot knife through butter.

 

Druxey, it is pretty difficult to glue the ribs to the planks. At this scale the ribs are pretty stiff and although they can be bent to follow the contour and twist of the hull, they won't stay in tight contact. Also some of the planks are just a bit out of alignment. PVA glue of course needs tight contact and time to set.

 

I used a couple of temporary screws and then drilled 3 holes per plank and used tree nails with glue. I used the flexi dremel drive as space is really tight. It took a while but I think the rib is very well secured.

 

 

 

 

I used about 60 tree nails for this rib alone taking into account wastage.

The good news are that it is doable. The bad ones that there are 83 more ribs left!

 

Regards

[Jim Lad]

Just catching up after being away for a few weeks.  Yoy're really making good progress, mate!

 

John

[vaddoc]

Thanks John! Trying hard to scrape an hour here and there to keep the building going.

 

My treenail stash got depleted so I made round 300 more. I have standardised two sizes, one for usual use and a slightly larger one for when the hole gets a bit larger after a failed treenail etc.

 

 

I am also trying to find an easy way to attach the ribs. It is not possible to glue the ribs to the planks so they will be just tree nailed. I am concerned though that the ribs might break free or the whole hull might get deformed. In any case I installed one more rib. 

 

I must now reconsider: This is a slow and rather complicated job. 82 more ribs left...

 

 

 

 

Hopefully in my next post I will be able to show much better progress 

 

 

[Roger Pellett]

You might try using the trick used by restorers of wood canvas canoes to replace broken ribs- use the hull itself as a form.  Bend the steamed rib blanks over the OUTSIDE of the hull and let them dry.  Remove and install the now bent ribs on the inside.  Since the rib shape will be inaccurate by the thickness of the hull planking you can adjust for this by bending the rib around a slightly smaller cross section of the hull either foreword (or aft) of the actual cross section.

 

You might also try laminating the ribs in two layers- gluing them together after bending.

 

Roger

[vaddoc]

Thanks for the suggestions Roger. I did try to use the outside of the hull as a form but there are two problems, one that the end of the ribs that slots in the keel cannot be set  from the outside and also that there is no way to secure the rib to the hull but to screw it on, and I don't want to open any more holes. Regarding laminating the ribs, I guess it could be done with 4 half mm laminates and there would be no need to steam bend anything. Well, I did not think of this beforehand! It would be a good solution, a bit messy and complex but would produce ribs with almost perfect shape.

Still, the beech I am using, if up to temperature, bends very nicely.

 

Regards

Vaddoc

[vaddoc]

Work continues on the boat. I now have standardised the procedure of installing the ribs. 

A few issues: I made about 500 tree nails but then had to throw all away as I used a softwood with interlocking grain so all the tree nails had cross grain in the middle and were weak. However, I had a piece of seasoned cherry wood that I salvaged from a friend who was using it as firewood. This produced wonderful and very strong tree nails. I have already called him to save me a few more pieces!

 

The ribs seem to be attached very securely to the planks. At the area of the mast step, there are 3 sets of ribs that are wider. I forgot that I intended to use two lines of tree nails but even with one the ribs are very well attached to the hull.

 

The hull is begging for some sanding but the time has not come yet. By the time the ribs are all in it will be even more messy and rough.

 

Some pics:

 

 

 

 

 

I wonder, will the hull hold its shape after the temporary frames are removed or will it collapse? We shall soon find out.

 

Regards

[druxey]

It's more likely to spread than collapse. I'd use some temporary cross-spalls as insurance to keep the hull from doing this.

[vaddoc]

On 11/4/2017 at 1:01 AM, druxey said:

It's more likely to spread than collapse. I'd use some temporary cross-spalls as insurance to keep the hull from doing this.

You are probably right Druxey. Any chance you think the hull might be rigid and not move after the temporary frames are removed?

I tried to google this actually but I could not find any information on the dynamics of hulls with steam bend ribs and their tendency to deform. I wonder, in real boat construction, do they also keep the spalls in place until the beams and bulkheads are in place?

 

In any case I will follow your suggestion.

[vaddoc]

I continued installing the ribs. I throw the pieces in boiling water, then fit them to the hull and bend to shape, secure with 1 mm screws, then drill and install the wood nails. Then a few hours later remove the screws and fill with wood nails. Most of the ribs are in but there is a lot of work left and some ribs can only be installed after the frames are removed. Beech responds superbly to heat:

 

 

An interesting aspect: During planking, there were a few areas that the plank did not follow the contour of the hull for all of its length. This was due to a lot of factors. Either the grain had a funny course and the plank was wavy or the frame was a bit off or the plank was a hair too long or did not fit perfectly. I thought that I could pull the plank into alignment with the screws and nails but this only worked to a (small) degree.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hopefully next update will be when all ribs are in place.

[vaddoc]

I run out of tree nails and made a few out of the nice cherry piece I was given. This is how 1500 tree nails (give or take...) look like!

 

[Omega1234]

Hi Vaddoc

 

Trenails, or no trenails...your hard work will definitely pay off in due course.

 

Cheers. 

 

Patrick

 

 

Edited November 25, 2017 by Omega1234

[vaddoc]

Thanks Patrick!

A couple of more photos, I have installed most of the ribs and removed some of the frames. I also followed Druxeys advice and got some cross-spalls on. 

 

I need to finish with the ribs, sand them smooth, fill and sand the inside of the plank to plank gaps and install the lower stringers and the beam selves. I think then the boat will hold its shape a bit better.

 

It is amazing how much material the boat is consuming. Also, these cross-spalls are very much in the way, I did not expect this, I though I would have a fully accessible hull at this stage so now everything will be a bit of squeeze and struggle.

 

 

 

 

 

[Omega1234]

Hi Vaddoc

 

She’s definitely coming along very nicely! 

 

As as for the ‘amount of material that this boat is consuming’....well....just look at the size of it!  She’s HUGE😉.

 

Have a great weekend. 

 

Cheers. 

 

Patrick

[vaddoc]

Just a quick update

My parents have been with us for a month so lately I was able to work on the boat. They are now leaving so back to my usual snail pace!

I ve taken all but two of the frames off and only 4 ribs are left to be installed. It looks alright!

Bags of work left...

 

 

[Jim Lad]

It doesn't look 'alright' - it looks terrific!!

 

John

[vaddoc]

Dear all

 

Work continues slowly with its ups and downs. John many thanks!

 

I continued taking frames out but then a problem developed. The hull started deforming. I have started a separate thread on this.

(https://modelshipworld.com/index.php?/topic/17360-hull-deforming-advice-needed/&tab=comments#comment-536582)
 

I have now taken all the temporary frames out and installed all the permanent frames. I have installed more braces to preserve the shape of the hull. 

Now, this indeed looks impressive, very rewarding photos!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I am not sure now how to proceed and I need to think. Many thanks to everyone that have offered their advice on the thread.

 

However, there are two more new problems.

 

One, my gas heater broke down and the replacement I was sent does not work either. With freezing temperatures I can no longer work.

Secondly, there are now gaps in between all of the planks!. I think the reason is the change in moisture. When I installed the planks it was summer and humidity was high. Now the boat and wood is constantly in just above freezing temperatures and I think humidity has reduced a lot and the wood has shrunk. Not really sure how to deal with this. I think a lot of filling will be needed but in the next season cycle it will probably fall off. Who said boat building is easy...

 

Hopefully my gas heater will be fixed and if life allows me I may do a bit of work in the next few weeks.

 

Mary christmas and a happy new year to all!

 

Vaddoc

 

[druxey]

Yes, humidity change will do that. Keep the place humidified once you get heat back and the wood should expand again. Slightly higher humidity in winter will be better for your respiratory health as well!

[Mark Pearse]

HI Vaddoc, very nice & looks almost real. How wide are the gaps between the planks?

 

Mark

[vaddoc]

Druxey, the boat now lives in the house and will only go to the garage when I ll be working on it. Yes, we do suffer winters with the dry air!

 

Thank you Mark, it is about 1 mm in many areas, too wide to paint. The whole boat is about 70 cm in length, 1:10 scale. Another problem is that I sanded the bottom inner edges of the planks but much more than I should. After sanding the hull, these gaps should open up even more. It seems that maple that I used for the planks (well seasoned) has high movement in service.

 

I think I ll wait for a few days for the boat to soak up moisture and then I ll fill the cracks from the inside, sand the ribs, install the beam selves and stringers and take it from there.

 

Vaddoc

Edited December 15, 2017 by vaddoc

[vaddoc]

I ve made some progress in the last couple of days. Due to the malfunction of my gas heater I had to work in the dining room table. My 2.5 year old daughter was very interested in the boat and she "helped" me a lot this past two days, sitting in my lap and constantly moving while I was trying to drill 1 mm pilot holes or helping me with the screwdriver leading to a few stripped screws... Would not change this for the world!

 

First thing, I decided not to build the interior of the boat. I am not really interested enough and would much rather carry on with the hull, deck, rigging etc. This decision simplified things a lot.

 

The boat has been in the house for 3 days and I can't say I ve seen a huge improvement in the gaps in the planking.

 

 

 

 

 

I have a feeling that these gaps will not fill well from the outside as I have sanded the inner edges of the planks far too aggressively. I decided to fill al gaps from the inside. The result is unsightly but it does not matter as I have already decided not to do the interior. I used a light filling putty and improvised a few tools. As the boat is so huge I could actually squeeze my arm in! The result was pretty good.I think that later on filling and sanding of the hull will now be much easier.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Next I started work on the beam selves. It needs to be 11 mm wide and 3.5 mm thick. I decided to make each self out of 4 strips 3 x 3 mm. I have a few pear wood strips which I can use. Par is super strong, excellent for this task. The upper most strip will be screwed onto the frames and the lower three will kind of laminate with epoxy and may be reinforced with screws.

 

The upper strips went in fine. I felt that the hull stiffened up considerably.

 

 

 

 

Regards

 

[druxey]

Heat alone will not expand the wood - humidity will.

[michael mott]

Regardless of you trials Vaddoc, she is looking good and even though you have made the choice to not model the inside the work of making and fitting the ribs with ensure that the hull is strong. and a good learning experience to build on.

 

Michael

[Mark Pearse]

HI Vaddoc

 

she is looking good & will be a great model.

Have you thought about undercoat paint in collaboration with the filling? I would think that filled, sanded & undercoated the timber will be more stable.....having filled the gaps, you don't want the timber to go back fully to its original dimensions either. And a good undercoat will sand well, so that if you do need to resand where some filler might be pressing out a little, you can easily do that.

 

Mark

 

 

[vaddoc]

Dear all thank you very much for your comments

 

Druxey, indeed humidity is what causes the problem but with the cold and the constant heating in the house everything is pretty dry and it will be months before temperatures in Britain pick up!

Mark, what do you mean by undercoat? The inside of the planks is well covered with filler but I guess I could spray some white primer on, this should seal it even better as well as cover the ribs and keel. As for the outside of the boat, after filling and sanding I was thinking of actually using a sanding sealer, then primer and then paint the hull. I have used sanding sealer on MDF which is very water absorbent and waterproofs it nicely. This should seal the wood, I just don't know if I can do this before spring time. 

 

I was thinking of getting the beams and deck on before sanding the hull but maybe I need to finish the hull first, at least getting the sealer and primer on and the paint bellow the waterline as primer is soft and will mark easily.

 

Regards

Vaddoc

[Mark Pearse]

Hi Vaddoc

 

it sounds like the sanding sealer is the same thing as I meant. In your position I would consider doing the sealer & leaving the topcoat painting until you were sure that the movement had settled down. It's a big deal to do a final topcoat, & to wait a bit longer after doing the sealer coat might just mean the topcoat doesn't need to be redone. Best wishes for whatever you decide to do.

 

Mark

[vaddoc]

I think you are right Mark. So the plan now is to finish with the stringers and beam selves and then to seal the inside of the hull and spray white primer all over. Then, to glue the keel on, fill, sand and seal the hull but leave the paint for (much) later on.

 

The beam selves should be 11 x 3 mm. I think it was a good idea to essentially laminate 3 strips 3x3mm each as I was able to very easily follow the curve of the sheer in both dimensions. I decided to use epoxy for its gap filling abilities. Still it is messy and unforgiving and I had to work really fast as with the high temperature in the house it cured very fast.

 

The port side is curing and tomorrow I ll probably do the other side. I think I won't bother sanding the excess epoxy as the deck will cover everything.

Indeed, you can never have enough clamps!

 

 

[vaddoc]

Dear all

A very quick update.

I finished the beam selves, maybe I should have added another 3x3 strip on each side but it is super strong and I think it would be a waste of time and of expensive timber.

I also added the stringer in one side and this task proved a very challenging one. It was difficult to find the position and persuade the 11 x 2 mm strip to stay in place. I had to use epoxy and the whole job was very messy. I do not look forward at all to doing the other side. 

Planking the inside of a ship must be much more difficult than planking the outside.

I also started applying sanding sealer to the inner surfaces of the hull. White primer will be sprayed on top when all is finished.

 

I am very happy I chose this boat, so far it has been great fun and I am learning a lot in the process. Still, it is far more difficult (and expensive) than I initially thought.

 

Regards

[vaddoc]

Another quick update

The interior of the hull has had filler applied, then a coat of sealer, then a thick coat of Halfords white primer and then a coat of pledge floor polish. I think it is now reasonably sealed!

I should have waited 24 hours for the primer to fully dry before applying Pledge but it did not cross my mind. The deck will hopefully cover all sins.

I still need to remove the masking tape from the transom and stem but at least the appearance has improved a bit.

 

Edited December 24, 2017 by vaddoc

[vaddoc]

A milestone reached today. I glued the keel on!

The hull is now complete. Next step lots of sanding, filling and sealing!

 

[vaddoc]

Some more progress made today.

 

I finally got my gas heater sorted and now the garage is cosy and warm. I also spent 2 days cleaning and tidying up.

 

I started sanding the hull and another difficulty in working in large scale presented. It is actually a physically demanding task! 

I initially used 120 grit sandpaper but then I used a blade to scrape the high areas. I continued with the 120 and it is starting to look better. 

 

 

 

 

There is still a massive amount of sanding but this hull has potential!