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Deben 5-tonner by vaddoc - Scale 1:10 - a Whisstock yard design

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Brush painting is not necessarily bad. Think of old-time coachpainters and the 'coachpainter's finish'. This was achieved with time and patience. A coat of paint, Dry for a minimum of 24 hours, rub down, repeat. It could take 10 coats or more, the last few being rubbed down with pumice powder, then finally with rottenstone. Been there, done it, on a harpsichord case. The results can be amazing if you take sufficient time and care. Or, you could just take the hull to your local autobody shop....

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Vaddoc ... a couple of thoughts from my 1/8th scale experiences:

 

First of all, I loved it. After too much time in the worlds of 1/72nd and 1/96th, it's heading towards 'real', and many of the modelling tricks you need to employ on smaller scales can be dispensed with. Plus, there's a physical 'presence' and 'mass' to fittings and structures which is great for my fat fingers, and the final result is just that bit more 'believable' to the eye.

 

Canvas - I mentioned 'high thread count' cotton material. I was aiming for the same sort of number of threads-per-scale-inch as real canvas has, and found a 300 tpi cotton pillowcase on offer which (pretty much) matches heavy duty full-scale canvas in this regard. It looks 'appropriate' on the model, so I can't fault it. It was first well-washed and then, once dry, glued on with PVA (rolling the fabric on with a roller, pinning it where needed in order to stretch it) and allowed to fully set for a day or so. Later, I painted it over with thinned PVA to help set and part-fill the weave. This provided the basis for later painting in acrylics. The subsequent wood/cotton laminate (and it is that - extremely bonded) is great for drilling and cutting, where needed - but do use a sharp scalpel.

 

I suspect your original boat would have had canvas added to its decks after hatches and lights (and so on) were integrated to the wooden deck. For a model, it's much easier to do this beforehand - add the 'canvas', then build the structure. It might be a cheat, but it makes for neater edges. :)

 

Finally: don't dismiss hand painting as a finish. Once again, 1/8th scale is working for us. The original was certainly hand-brushed - so some minor brush marks would be more than expected on the final surface. I hand-painted with standard modelling acrylic paints throughout my build of Racundra. The finish is not, by any means, Photoshop Perfect, but does look like the finish you'd get on a handcrafted wooden boat of the 20th century.

 

...Which, of course, is the point.

 

Andy

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Even though your model is large it may still be too small for this technique but I offer it for what it’s worth-  Rolling and Tipping, I have used it on several wood canvas canoes where I had trouble with brush marks.  It involves rolling enamel on and then very lightly stroking it with a dry brush to level out the paint.  A small foam roller would probably work.  I have used it with standard semi gloss alkyd boatbuilding enamels.  With these,enamels a drop of Penetrol also helps to eliminate brush marks.

 

Roger

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...to follow up Roger's suggestion, rolling and tipping works really well two-up. One rolls, the other tips, working on the still-wet surface. It's surprisingly quick (hulls are huge surfaces) and the finish can be lovely.

 

Andy

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Thank you all, your advice is much appreciated. I did some thinking over the options.

 

In the past I tried acrylics and the result was horrible. No coverage (even using vallejo), terrible brush marks, a complete deal breaker. I then tried automotive primer and Humbrol enamels brush painted. I did have problems with bleeding, actually ay some point I had to sand the whole hull and start again! Painting was the source of countless problems and tragedies but in the end I got a reasonable result but I don't want to go through a similar ordeal. The next pic is from my previous model in 1:12, using blue Humbroll enamel gloss paint (the white was sprayed). I used up two 500 ml primer sprays and two Humbrol white paint sprays for this! The Deben though has a much larger hull.

 

IMG_1703.thumb.jpg.625c254ce05f8b4309f0b9c0f3067b2e.jpg

 

I love enamels but they are just too difficult to use. The automotive primer has very strong fumes and takes 24 h to fully cure. Even using low odour mineral spirits, enamels also have fumes. Enamels also need 24 hours between coats (although 2 coats are enough) and cleaning the brushes always left a mess in the kitchen sink and the admiral fuming worse than the paint. I really don't have the energy for this.

 

I considered carefully things and I think acrylics are the way forward, as well as accepting a much lower standard of finish. To test how low this standard would be I sanded and sealed two pieces of plywood and primed one with Halfords grey primer and the other with Humbrol grey primer. 

 

Apart from the stronger fumes of the automotive primer, no difference. Actually the Halfords primer dried as quickly. I now work in a detached garage so the fumes are less of a problem but still were annoying, I will be using Humbrol although more expensive.

 

Then I painted one piece with Vallejo green and the other with Americana (known also as Decoart ) Cyan. I used good quality brushes, 4 coats each and tried to do my best, like as if I was painting the boat. Vallejo wins hands down. Nicer to work, much better coverage, looks like having much more pigment, really nice stuff.

 

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There are brush strokes visible when the light shines on the surface, but I think I need to just accept this. I intend in the end to add a couple of coats of varnish (This might be enamel) so maybe this will improve things. I have never sanded paint and I think I will not do it.

 

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Next, I did a bit of testing with the canvas sheathing. Andy, I ordered some 300 count fabric as you advised but I had a couple of fabric offcuts laying around, one synthetic and a cotton one. I covered two pieces of maple sheets with diluted PVA, added the fabric and then saturated everything with glue. The fabric is loosely attached, not stretched, I just want to see what will happen.

 

20180310_193504.thumb.jpg.5d4748079f0db2e6eeaf301e8a36008c.jpg

 

Regards

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You might try a trick I learned eons ago with automobiles.  Use toothpaste to rub out the pain.  If you're careful it will take down the highspots.   Rinse extremely thoughly and then use a good top coat like you are planing.   BUT always test on scrap just in case.

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Hi Vaddoc

 

I used both acrylic & enamel for my hull, but I've only done it the once to a model so that's not much experience. I got some brushing thinners for both & didn't have any wet edge issues. I used gloss enamel for topsides & matt acrylic for the antifouling paint. Happy with both, but was very impressed with the acrylic - but I'm not sure though how good their gloss level is.

The only surprise I found was that the Humbrol enamel really needed to be mixed for 5 minutes or it took days to dry.

My experience with painting the model & also full size hulls is that you are best to brush lengthwise along the hull, & try to brush towards the wet paint rather than both directions, although it might not be possible to do that 100%.

 

good luck with it...

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Mark, I will allow a few days for the acrylic paint on the test pieces to fully cure/set and then I l try toothpaste and probably some automotive paste as well.

 

Mark, I have been silently following your build. I liked your paint job and choice of colours a lot. Looking back, how did you paint the waterline strip? did you first mask the strip, paint everything else, then mask above and bellow the line? 

 

 

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An update on the canvas testing.

 

The synthetic fabric did not glue well. The cotton one did much better so I concentrated on this.

I saturated the fabric once more with PVA, but not as diluted as before. This time however, I squeezed the excess off from half the surface. This half came out smoother.

 

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Then i applied one coat of acrylic, green as this is the only colour I have. There is a difference between the halves, first picture is wet, second dry

 

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After 4 coats there was no difference in colour, but the squeezed side was smoother.

 

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I think that indeed a dense high quality cotton fabric is needed for this job, the PVA should be just thinned going on the wood and not too thinned going on top to saturate the fabric. The fabric should be stretched, the excess glue should be squeezed and if needed a second coat of PVA applied. Then, at least 4 coats of acrylic are needed.

 

 

 

 

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9 hours ago, vaddoc said:

how did you paint the waterline strip? did you first mask the strip, paint everything else, then mask above and bellow the line? 

Yes, that's the process I used. Tamiya masking tape from a hobby shop (recommended, great quality), being careful to burnish the edges of the making tape down, especially for the final waterline (boot top line). I didn't thin the waterline paint, so that it was thicker & would hopefully bleed under the tape less. There were some bleeds & I scraped them off  with the tip of a knife blade when it was all dry.

 

On the topsides paint, I did multiple thin coats of paint - maybe 4 coats - not worrying about whether is was opaque or not. Sanded between using 000 steel wool, or v fine paper.

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5 hours ago, vaddoc said:

I saturated the fabric once more with PVA, but not as diluted as before. This time however, I squeezed the excess off from half the surface. This half came out smoother.

20180311_093811.thumb.jpg.945a1cf3960809dd5ea349dda42e7669.jpg

The right side is very blobby - left side seems ok. Left side might be better stretched a bit while drying and rolled out while wet on the surface. It certainly takes a few coats to build up paint on the dried cotton surface once glued. I hit it on coat 4 or 5 of acrylic on cotton: thought I'd never get there, but then - all of a sudden! - it does.

 

Andy

 

Edited by AndyG

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A thin coat of gesso first will seal the surface so that the paint coats aren't absorbed. (Regular household acrylic primer will do!)

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Many thanks to all for your suggestions. There's a lot to consider!

 

I decided to install the deck first. I used 1.5 mm plywood which easily followed the curves except for the stern.

 

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The fit of the different pieces came out great, the seems are very small but still some shaping and sanding is needed at the edges. I also shaped the stem, it will need to be cut almost flush with the deck I think but this will be done later on. 

 

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I am not happy though with the deck at the stern, there is too much spring back pressure in the plywood. I think this is better to laminate from 0.8 mm sheets.

20180312_192126.jpg

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Dear all

It has been a while since my last post but life just got in the way again. Furthermore, my trusted macbook which has been my companion in life for the last 10 years suddenly died. This turned out actually to be quite a significant problem, I was so used to living with it that it had become a third arm or something. No loss of data but a major bother to set a new laptop up (windows this time, cannot afford macbook anymore) and transfer data over (have not done it yet).  

 

In any case, I managed to do just a bit of work on the boat. I did quite a lot of thinking though as now I think I reached a stage where I need to be careful in which order jobs should be done. I was so worn out most times I worked on the boat that I kept making mistakes. I ended up with a couple of drills embedded deep in the wood and a few marks in the transom, which now definitely needs to be painted.

 

First of all, I got a kind of mast up, just to have an idea how things would work

 

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Then, I finished the deck, it came out fine.

 

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I also finished sanding the transom. Note the marks from the drills that went too deep.

 

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Before I put on the canvas, I think I need to make the cabin. This will be made of plywood, with wood strips on top. There will be some kind of scaffold inside to keep it stable. The roof will be slopped made probably from planks on beams. I initially worked to prepare a temporary scaffold of the shape of the cabin.

 

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The more I work and think on the cabin, it becomes clear that this will actually be quite a project on its own. I am not sure how the roof will be made. 

Once more, this boat despite being small, is a complex one!

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As my father used to say, "Never make things simple if you can make them complicated!" The original builder must have overheard him. Nice progress, though.

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Thanks Druxey. I actually sat down and quickly draw the cabin on CAD, using the actual dimensions that I picked up off the boat.

 

I created the surfaces and then divided the roof top to 28 segments, corresponding to planks about 12 mm wide (I have many 12 mm maple strips). I then unrolled the planks which stayed perfectly straight. This means that no spilling what so ever will be needed. Excellent! This simplifies things a lot!

 

5abc041e8299f_Screenshot(12).thumb.png.f91c367efe2bd014fdb83afb0b051146.png

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the deck looks very good Vaddoc, were you thinking of doing the transom clear finished?

 

I did an internet search to see what the rig is, & there seems to be a number of alternatives....what are you thinking?

 

Mark

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Thanks Mark, it was an option to leave the transom unpainted with maybe tang oil and varnish, as it is (was) a lovely piece of cherry with no defects. Now it will be painted, maybe white. I will use red colour bellow the waterline, white for the line itself and blue above.

 

The rigging is a bit of a puzzle, especially as my sailing experience is almost non-existent. The mast comes out of the cabin roof, there is no king plank to take the strain. So, there must be very strong standing rigging with three set of shrouds. I think it will be gaff rigged, with a bowsprit. Any suggestions of alternatives would be greatly appreciated!

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Masts usually go through a deck or cabin roof, a king plank does a lot of work but it wouldn't take any of the downwards mast loads. The mast goes down to the keel & usually sits on a mast step there (basically a beam that spreads the mast loads), the last would likely just go through the cabin roof & deck & maybe/maybe not be wedged against them; the mast can be free to move around a bit within a gap of about 1".  I'm not sure what the detail is in the UK to waterproof this joint, but traditionally it would probably have been some sort of canvas boot, tied off to the mast & also tied off over a raised edge around the cabin top/deck hole. Even for a model, I would make sure you support the mast load down to the keel whether or not the mast goes through the cabin, timber can slowly bend over time from ongoing loads, & maybe even put in a mast step the equivalent of about 1-1.5m long.

 

I wouldn't think 3 shrouds would be necessary, it's not a large yacht, & if you do gaff rig they are lower stress than bermudian...but you would need running backstays as well as the two each side on the mast - a cap shroud & a lower each side. 

 

On the rig, I believe that a gaff cutter would be a good choice (an internet search showed that they were done in this rig), because the boat is probably heavy & it's a more powerful rig than the triangular Bermudian mainsail. A cutter rig because that rig is very popular in the UK & this is definitely a classic English design. Lastly, the gaff rig just looks so damn good....but this is just the opinion of an idle bystander.

 

On the transom, it was also popular to put the boat name on a wooden plate (or two). If your model has a double name then it might work to use plates & cover the drill damage that way...just a thought.

 

I hope this assists, & the ultimate decision should be yours

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Dear Mark, I am still digesting your post so I will reply later.

 

I continued the work on the cabin, I had to redo the CAD drawing as I had made all sorts of mistakes. However the CAD was at this stage mostly to understand how things would come together. The plan is to make the cabin as a compete and finished unit that later will just slide in the deck opening. I should be able to tilt the unit to make sure the roof is horizontal, as well as slide it up and down. I managed to produce a pretty accurate template of the cabin floor on cardboard (allowing for the cabin wall thickness) which I transferred to plywood. Then with pieces of wood and epoxy I glued the sidewalls on. Some sanding was needed so that the cabin would fit nicely.

 

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The cabin will need to be fixed in place, I will use the bulkheads to install some cross beams at the desired height.

 

20180331_160443.thumb.jpg.128bdc209150d942a3ffe9ad0412c1ec.jpg

 

The roof will be certainly a project on its own. The Deben had a 9% camber which is a lot. As the centerline will be straight, the shape of the arc changes for each beam, so that the same crown height is maintained. Rhino did this in a heartbeat, free hand it would be an impossible task. The beams really should be laminated but I cut corners and made them from 3 mm cherry. I think it should be fine. Of note, there is one beam missing from the photo, which is the most curved of all.

 

20180401_130133.thumb.jpg.9529c11d9cb2bbff874f7593ef3c54d9.jpg

 

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I had to transfer the actual dimensions of the cabin to CAD, which was not very successful. I marked the positions of the beams I cut, but they are off a bit.  However it does not matter, since the crown height is the same, the position where the beams fit snuggly is the correct one!

 

Next task is to glue the beam self for the beams. This is actually difficult as the sidewall needs first to be fixed to its proper position, as the beam self will act also as a stringer. However, for the sidewalls to be in place, the cardboard roof needs to be taped on but then I have no access. I made some temporary beams which helped a lot.

 

I also made the for and aft walls, these are not yet glued.

 

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I decided to put a plywood roof and then canvas on top, rather than planks. The cabin will have wood all around, hopefully varnished. 

 

A few things to consider:

 

1. I must not forget to make holes in the floor and roof of the cabin for the mast! Also, I must remember to glue the mast step.

2. I need to make plans to produce and install some nice round brass portholes. This will be challenging but I need to master metal work as this boat at this scale will have quite a lot of it.

3. I am not sure what wood to use for the cabin outer walls. I would like to imitate mahogany and I really liked a sample of red paduak (I think) but I do not really want to buy new wood. I have a lot of maple, pear and cherry, many thick beech and a lot of 0.5 mm walnut strips. Maybe I can stain some wood but I would need to experiment.

 

Regards

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The whisstock.com pages lead me to this layout of the gaff-rigged 5-tonner. (It's a .pdf - you might need to be registered with the site to view it.)

 

That shows the mast held in a tabernacle on the roof of the coach house - this is handy for lowering the mast when required. Under the mast there's a vertical support for the tabernacle down to the keel. No doubt there's an athwartship beam for the roof at that point, and the support butts against the lower side of this beam. This support is seen also functioning as the bottom-right corner of the 'head' and the port side of the frame of the door into the forward berth.

 

:)

 

Andy

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Dear all

 

It is getting increasingly difficult to work on the boat as family and work demands are increasing. 

 

Many thanks Patrick!

Mark, you are right. The Deben 5 tonner has running backstays. This can clearly be seen in the sketch Andy refers to. Good idea re name plate, maybe chance to try photo etching!

Andy, indeed there seems also to be a tabernacle at the cabin roof.

 

Now, I had of course previously seen this sketch but being a landsman and having never heard of running backstays or tabernacles I completely ignored these things!

It seems that highfield levers are often used. Also, the cabin roof probably should be exceptionally sturdy if it is to support the mast.  

 

I continued experimenting with canvas sheathing and I think I have cracked it. The very fine 400 count cotton cloth is great. I tested a piece, initially glued down with undiluted generic white PVA glue and held under some tension with tape. Then, a coat of very lightly diluted white PVA glue. Finish with very light sanding to make the surface smooth. Excellent result!

 

Making the cabin is becoming a major problem.  I had to go back to the CAD plans a dozen times as I kept making mistakes. My bench is now full of beams that were cut on wrong templates. Lots of very nice and expensive wood wasted! Finally, I got it right.

 

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Next the beams will be epoxyed in place and the plywood roof will be added. for the rest I ve been scratching my head though for a few days now. The plywood walls need to be covered by some nice wood, not sure how this will be done. Also the canvas on the roof will need some way of wood covering over the edges. I need also to make provisions for the mast, the companion way door and the portholes. Absolutely no idea how to do these yet!

 

I also did a bit of experimenting with silver soldering. It stick things together no doubt about it but there is a training curve to make things look nice. A new skill I need to master and more expenses to get past the admiral. I ordered a few more things and slowly I will experiment over the next few weeks and months.

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Just a quick update, I did some more work on the cabin. It is now very strong and rigid, necessary as it will be abused during the rest of the build. I thought about doing the beams properly, with cross members, joints etc as well as a working companion way but I decided to simplify things. 

 

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20180413_220716.thumb.jpg.b671bef8ba68c1ed5dbd5a2827c8ed27.jpg

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Another update is in order I think. 

 

After trial and error I think I now have established a cabin height that works well with the rest of the boat. I temporarily installed cross beams at the bulkheads and they do a good job at supporting the cabin. It took a bit of work to get the heights right so that the cabin roof would be parallel to the waterline. Due to the sheer curve of course, the cabin wall height reduces towards the bow. 

 

I found in my timber stash a forgotten cherry sheet 1 mm thick which is excellent to cover the plywood walls. Cutting the templates was much easier than I thought. I also cut the cardboard template for the plywood roof.

 

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I think next task will be to install the roof and then the canvas over the deck and roof.

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Hi Vaddoc

 

The cabin is starting to come together really nicely, especially now that you’ve figured out the height, etc.  

 

I also agree with Mark about the Cherry wood.  It should add a lovely rich colour to the boat.

 

Nice work.

 

Cheers. 

 

Patrick

Edited by Omega1234

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