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What are these? does anybody knows? thanks.....


BIGMAC
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Trying to build a galleot. Does anybody knows what these round?/ eggshaped? objects on the top of the spars/yards are and what their function is?. Furthermore, the curvature of the spars/yards was "build in" or they were very flexible and it was due to the force of the wind? Thanks again.

post-13995-0-63835000-1475696213_thumb.jpg

post-13995-0-40263900-1475696253.jpg

post-13995-0-69822600-1475696277_thumb.jpg

Edited by BIGMAC
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They seem pretty exaggerated, but they must be "ball trucks" (though "ball" doesn't really describe them. They would have contained a sheave through which the flag halliards would have been run - for flying standards and pennants off the masts.....I might be wrong though - they look significantly different from the later period ball trucks I've seen.....

hamilton

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They seem pretty exaggerated, but they must be "ball trucks" (though "ball" doesn't really describe them. They would have contained a sheave through which the flag halliards would have been run - for flying standards and pennants off the masts.....I might be wrong though - they look significantly different from the later period ball trucks I've seen.....

hamilton

thanks H. u mean something like this i guess......post-13995-0-93719800-1475701717.jpg

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Could they simply be a large counterweight (cantilever)?  The last image is not that clear but appears to have only a tackle on the opposed side?  the weight would then assist in the working of the yard????  Only conjecture offered for further discussion.

 

Cheers

 

Pat

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Could they simply be a large counterweight (cantilever)?  The last image is not that clear but appears to have only a tackle on the opposed side?  the weight would then assist in the working of the yard????  Only conjecture offered for further discussion.

 

Cheers

 

Pat

Hmmmm, Interesting thought Pat. Thanks alot!!!!!

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May be there as a counter weight but not as an aid to manipulate the yard. Looks like the Yard is made up of two poles lashed and overlapping on the but ends, the small part of the pole on the ends. Wouldn't need a counter weight to lower the aft end of the yard because of the hinge point, but a weight on the end of the aft pole would allow for pulling the sail taught while allowing some buffering action in the yard.

jud

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Greetings everyone;

 

With regard to this object being a counterweight,  I do not think this is very likely,  as it is on the longer part of the yard.  A counterweight would need to be on the shorter part to balance the additional length  of the longer arm.  At least,  if it was countering the weight of the yard this would be so.  If it was somehow intended to counter a force exerted by the wind this could be different,  but a rope would seem the easiest way of countering the wind.

 

Would a weight at this point be advantageous or disadvantageous when changing tack?  How is a lateen sail handled when manoeuvring?

 

Could it be intended to act as a damper,  taking some of the spring out of the yard that could arise due to its length,  especially during a change of tack?

 

There is no sign of any rope reeving through it on any of the illustrations shown (although that could,  of course,  be artistic licence) so a truck for flag halliards seems unlikely.  Especially as one vessel is shown with a flag at the masthead.  Although,  certainly,  the absence of flags from the yard-arm does not prove anything in this case.

 

More food for thought,  I hope.

 

All the best,

 

Mark P

Edited by Mark P
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Not really getting much closer concerning the function, however the object in question is hardly unique to the galleot.  Note the 2 images below where Steel shows a similar appendage on the Xebec and the Pink.

 

post-18-0-75404000-1475835078_thumb.jpg

 

post-18-0-66236900-1475835079_thumb.jpg

 

Decidedly not a sheave (block, pulley &c.).  No lines evident in any of the views, yet control lines are visible along the lateen yard.

 

May want to take a look through some of the history of fore and aft rig resources out there (Chatterton, Leather, R.C. Anderson) for descriptive information.

 

 

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Greetings everyone;

 

With regard to this object being a counterweight,  I do not think this is very likely,  as it is on the longer part of the yard.  A counterweight would need to be on the shorter part to balance the additional length  of the longer arm.  At least,  if it was countering the weight of the yard this would be so.  If it was somehow intended to counter a force exerted by the wind this could be different,  but a rope would seem the easiest way of countering the wind.

 

Would a weight at this point be advantageous or disadvantageous when changing tack?  How is a lateen sail handled when manoeuvring?

 

Could it be intended to act as a damper,  taking some of the spring out of the yard that could arise due to its length,  especially during a change of tack?

 

There is no sign of any rope reeving through it on any of the illustrations shown (although that could,  of course,  be artistic licence) so a truck for flag halliards seems unlikely.  Especially as one vessel is shown with a flag at the masthead.  Although,  certainly,  the absence of flags from the yard-arm does not prove anything in this case.

 

More food for thought,  I hope.

 

All the best,

 

Mark P

Thanks for your interest Mark. Indeed many question marks. During my pre-building research, I have saved this graph of a lateen sail handling (its from a building post on this site, unfortunately dont remember which one), but i dont find any answers yet....Dumper? buffering control?

post-13995-0-54980100-1475842657_thumb.jpg

Edited by BIGMAC
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Not really getting much closer concerning the function, however the object in question is hardly unique to the galleot.  Note the 2 images below where Steel shows a similar appendage on the Xebec and the Pink.

 

attachicon.gifdesc2.jpg

 

attachicon.gifdesc3.jpg

 

Decidedly not a sheave (block, pulley &c.).  No lines evident in any of the views, yet control lines are visible along the lateen yard.

 

May want to take a look through some of the history of fore and aft rig resources out there (Chatterton, Leather, R.C. Anderson) for descriptive information.

Very interesting photos Wayne. Thanks alot. You are right, not only in galleots. I think that has something to do with Lateen sails and their handling. In some cases there are not appearing,  but maybe there are just omitted by the artist

.

post-13995-0-16704100-1475843122_thumb.jpgpost-13995-0-20672600-1475843142_thumb.jpg

Edited by BIGMAC
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I like the idea of the counterweight/buffering control. Kind of reminds me of the horns on the flight control surfaces of aircraft wings, which, I think, are there for buffering control. Maybe...... :)

 

attachicon.gifhorn2.jpg

attachicon.gifhorn1.jpg

On the funny side. Friend called me and congratulated me for the first ever (he says) aircraft photo on this site.... :)....and without being out of context!!!!  (he says)

Edited by BIGMAC
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Hello,

 

This "object", which is composed of a large piece of sheepskin with its all its wool, is designed to avoid tearing of the back sail by the top end of the fore yard when they are handling. This yard end is very flexible.

The great latin sails are succeptibles to many positions to function properly, this involves yard movements sometimes poorly controlled with high winds.

The bottom of the yard is often equipped with this accessory but this part is more controllable because it is steeper and it is headed by a rope.

 

Regards,

Gérard Delacroix

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Hello,

 

This "object", which is composed of a large piece of sheepskin with its all its wool, is designed to avoid tearing of the back sail by the top end of the fore yard when they are handling. This yard end is very flexible.

The great latin sails are succeptibles to many positions to function properly, this involves yard movements sometimes poorly controlled with high winds.

The bottom of the yard is often equipped with this accessory but this part is more controllable because it is steeper and it is headed by a rope.

 

Regards,

Gérard Delacroix

Great!!!!! Many thanks Gerard!!!!

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Hello,

 

This "object", which is composed of a large piece of sheepskin with its all its wool, is designed to avoid tearing of the back sail by the top end of the fore yard when they are handling. This yard end is very flexible.

The great latin sails are succeptibles to many positions to function properly, this involves yard movements sometimes poorly controlled with high winds.

The bottom of the yard is often equipped with this accessory but this part is more controllable because it is steeper and it is headed by a rope.

 

Regards,

Gérard Delacroix

2 quick ones Gerard......1) is there a name for these objects?.......2) do you think that, as an alternative, they maybe use a wooden ball-shaped part, instead of sheepskin?

Thanks and Regards

Mike

Edited by BIGMAC
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The beauty of the internet and the great collective experience we have on this site - thanks for the explanation Gerard (we learn things every day) and thanks Big Mac for raising the sugject.

 

cheers

 

Pat

Thats right Pat and I thank everybody for their thoughts and time.......BUT, nobody answer my second question :(.....(Furthermore, the curvature of the spars/yards was "build in" or they were very flexible and it was due to the force of the wind?).....

Mike.

Edited by BIGMAC
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2 quick ones Gerard......1) is there a name for these objects?.......2) do you think that, as an alternative, they maybe use a wooden ball-shaped part, instead of sheepskin?

Thanks and Regards

Mike

 

I have continued digging as time allows, but surprisingly little detail accessible (that is the operative word) concerning the actual manufacture of the spar.  I can find a huge volume concerning the evolution and dispersal of the rig, and some tantalizing tidbits that I can not access (see, for example, Landström, B. 1961. The Ship: An Illustrated History for what is purported to be a good description of how the lateen sails were handled).

 

I would suspect, based solely on the visual evidence of the attachments (on galliots, galleys &c.), that they were indeed sometimes of other than sheep skin.  Rounded wooden "caps" would offer nearly similar protection (the purpose being to protect the aft sail from damage). 

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Thats right Pat and I thank everybody for their thoughts and time.......BUT, nobody answer my second question :(.....(Furthermore, the curvature of the spars/yards was "build in" or they were very flexible and it was due to the force of the wind?).....

Mike.

 

The descriptions of how these rigs were operated would tend to support a designed curvature.  The optimum location for the sail is on the leeward side of the mast so that it is pushed away from the mast, filling and using the most available sail volume.  In order to accomplish this, the yard would need to be brought to the other side of the mast.  One (probably most common) way this was done was to bring it to a nearly vertical position then physically wrestle the yard to the other side of the mast.  The curved yard would ease this by keeping the ends away from the mast, avoiding (or at least reducing) interference with the mast itself as well as shrouds.

 

See Campbell, I.C. 1995. The Lateen Sail in World History. Journal of World History 6, no. 1: 1–23. http://www.jstor.org/stable/20078617as well as Castro, F., N. Fonseca, T. Vacas, and F. Ciciliot. 2008. A Quantitative Look at Mediterranean Lateen- and Square-Rigged Ships (Part 1). International Journal of Nautical Archaeology 37, no. 2: 347–359. http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1095-9270.2008.00183.x/abstract (available at http://nautarch.tamu.edu/shiplab/00-pdf/Castro%202008%20-%20IJNA%20-%20Lateeners%201.pdf )

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The descriptions of how these rigs were operated would tend to support a designed curvature.  The optimum location for the sail is on the leeward side of the mast so that it is pushed away from the mast, filling and using the most available sail volume.  In order to accomplish this, the yard would need to be brought to the other side of the mast.  One (probably most common) way this was done was to bring it to a nearly vertical position then physically wrestle the yard to the other side of the mast.  The curved yard would ease this by keeping the ends away from the mast, avoiding (or at least reducing) interference with the mast itself as well as shrouds.

 

See Campbell, I.C. 1995. The Lateen Sail in World History. Journal of World History 6, no. 1: 1–23. http://www.jstor.org/stable/20078617as well as Castro, F., N. Fonseca, T. Vacas, and F. Ciciliot. 2008. A Quantitative Look at Mediterranean Lateen- and Square-Rigged Ships (Part 1). International Journal of Nautical Archaeology 37, no. 2: 347–359. http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1095-9270.2008.00183.x/abstract (available at http://nautarch.tamu.edu/shiplab/00-pdf/Castro%202008%20-%20IJNA%20-%20Lateeners%201.pdf )

Many thanks Wayne for your time.....and excellent references!!!!

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I have continued digging as time allows, but surprisingly little detail accessible (that is the operative word) concerning the actual manufacture of the spar.  I can find a huge volume concerning the evolution and dispersal of the rig, and some tantalizing tidbits that I can not access (see, for example, Landström, B. 1961. The Ship: An Illustrated History for what is purported to be a good description of how the lateen sails were handled).

 

I would suspect, based solely on the visual evidence of the attachments (on galliots, galleys &c.), that they were indeed sometimes of other than sheep skin.  Rounded wooden "caps" would offer nearly similar protection (the purpose being to protect the aft sail from damage). 

Think so too. seems practical and logical I guess...

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Hello,

 

I must say that I have never met the name of the accessory that is quite common in Latin rigging. Present at the end of the yards but also on the head of the bow for the same purpose: to save sails.

 

This element could it be a wooden disc as it would appear on some drawings? Why not but I doubt because the weight of such a disk would bend the yard.

 

Concerning the curvature of the yard, it's natural and due to the weight and the flexibility of the yard wood (pine).

For huge galleys yards I studied, the "comite" or executive chief of the galley (that is, among others the function, sail master), takes the curvature into account when cutting the sails. The arc of this curve is, at rest, between 3 and 4% of the length of the yard so about 3 feet to a yard of around 100 feet for the longest of them.

With the wind, the rope retaining and swelling of the sail this curvature increases.

 

Regards,

Gérard Delacroix

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Hello all.

Portuguese fishermen might still use something similar, not to say the same at least at the end of the stem of the galliot bow.

From the photos I guess that, either they were using something made of rope like the "baggywrinkle", or they might would  cover a proper wooden shape, with a sheepskin. That would explain what it seems like heavy load at the edge of the yards.

What remains, is to ask a Portuguese fisherman, about the name or even the construction of that.  :)  

Thx

 

post-617-0-31700300-1476121650_thumb.jpg

 

 

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Hello,
 
I must say that I have never met the name of the accessory that is quite common in Latin rigging. Present at the end of the yards but also on the head of the bow for the same purpose: to save sails.
 
This element could it be a wooden disc as it would appear on some drawings? Why not but I doubt because the weight of such a disk would bend the yard.
 
Concerning the curvature of the yard, it's natural and due to the weight and the flexibility of the yard wood (pine).
For huge galleys yards I studied, the "comite" or executive chief of the galley (that is, among others the function, sail master), takes the curvature into account when cutting the sails. The arc of this curve is, at rest, between 3 and 4% of the length of the yard so about 3 feet to a yard of around 100 feet for the longest of them.
With the wind, the rope retaining and swelling of the sail this curvature increases.
 
Regards,
Gérard Delacroix

 

thanks Gerard, great piece of info!!!!

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