HMCSS Victoria 1855 by Banyan - 1:72

[Jim Lad]

More very nice blacksmithing, mate!

 

John

[BANYAN]

Thanks everyone for the comments and encouragement; and welcome aboard French Mr Bean - appreciate your kind comment.

Good ideas Eberhard and Druxey, I will experiment with those techniques but I must admit I have never had much luck with concentricity when boring out  

 

cheers

 

Pat

Edited August 5, 2022 by BANYAN

[BANYAN]

Hi folks, this post is one for those interested in just how much scale rope would be required to fully rig a vessel in the mid-19th century (steam/sail).  HMCSS Victoria was rigged as a three masted Barque with a full outfit of fore-and-aft sails).  After transcribing a copy of her Rigging Warrant into an Excel Spreadsheet, I used some background formulas and pivot tables to calculate the various sizes of thread I would need and was very surprised with the result.  This may not surprise the more experienced modellers, but needing over 71 metres of running rigging scale rope was somewhat enlightening for me   (and that doesn't include some of the extraneous stuff like lacings, some rigging tackles, gun tackles, boat rigging (5 x boats) etc. 

 

Please note that I am using silver grey thread to simulate the wirerope rigging - using wire would simply destroy the rigging fittings at this scale.  I am posting an example of one of the worksheets (that for the Bowsprit and combined Jib Boom) the spreadsheet.

 

The scary bit - how do I make 0.1mm rope  I think I will just have to find some suitable sized thread, or simply round these out a bit and use say only 3 or 4 sizes but stick to the principle of lighter ropes to the upper rigging etc.

 

cheers

 

Pat

[wefalck]

Pat, are you making your own rope? If so, you could try some 18/0 fly-tying yarn (I found the Danish Veevus a good brand), which should you get down to 0.1 mm or even below, if you split the two-ply yarn and make two lengths of three-strand from three lengths of the two-ply yarns.

[mtaylor]

I don't see a problem using only 3 or 4 sizes of rope for running rigging or standing.  Many do that and no one ever goes around nit-picking thread sizes after a model is built.

[BANYAN]

Thanks for the feedback and comments Eberhard and Mark, and for all the 'likes'.

 

Eberhard, yep, hopefully I will be able to make all of it, but may resort to suitable thread if I have no luck with the smaller stuff.  I'll have a close look at that fly tying thread, but my concern here would be a colour match with the thread I have found for the silver/grey to simulate wire - this latter is a Gutterman cotton (long staple).

 

cheers

 

Pat

[Keith Black]

Pat, have you considered Gutermann polyester? I suggest polyester because of it's longevity versus cotton. Some say the poly thread has a shine to it, I can't see it. 

[BANYAN]

Hi Keith, thanks for the suggestion.  I have tried polyester, and still experimenting with Rayon, but I found the poly has just too much stretch in it - even PR stretching hasn't helped much, especially here with the wide range of humidity we experience.  I agree with you re shine though, especially if you use the 'glace' types.

 

cheers

 

Pat

 

 

[KeithAug]

Very impressive rope planning Pat. Is your rope walk a home design or a commercial unit?

[BANYAN]

Both Keith   I have one of Jim Byrne's Universal ropewalks which is very good at left hand lay but not so easy to make RH lay - need to source LH thread stock and a bit of mucking around.  This may be due to the fact I do not use it that often and have not yet developed the technique adequately for RH.  For RH I have been using the club's walking rope maker which, with a bit of techniques allows some very fine small scale (down to .25 so far) ropes to be made.  I am confident I can get 0.2mm but not sure about 0.1mm - If I can find suitably coloured fly tying thread/line as suggested by Eberhard, I will have a go with that.  The stuff I have used though is easily frayed so will have to experiment with make as well.

 

cheers

 

Pat

[wefalck]

Why doesn't the Byrnes ropewalk work not so well for RH rope? I would have that that this is just a question of cranking into the opposite direction. However, I am not familiar with this ropewalk.

 

One may need to unravel commercial thread, if the twist is the 'wrong' way around, but that is not too difficult usually.

[BANYAN]

Eberhard, with this machine it is even more important to get it set-up right.  It works really well to make LH lay, but to do RH, the feed spools need to be wound differently, and if you do not use the correct initial lay of the stock thread, it twists and kinks madly as it is made up.  It can be done, but it takes a LOT of patience and a lot of fussing about (in my experience, and also experienced by a couple of others in earlier discussions in this forum).  The machine is beautifully made and a credit to Jim (as with his other machine tools), it is just a lot more complicated to set-up and use to make RH laid rope which sort of detracts from it other primary features (being able to produce long lengths of rope) in a minimal foot print (only a couple hundred mm).  I will report back after I have experimented further with it as I think I have found some LH laid stock BUIT much too big for my purposes - unfortunately everything in the Victoria is RH laid (as she has wirerope instead of cable laid shrouds and other standing rigging).

 

cheers

 

Pat

[wefalck]

Ah, Pat, I didn't realise that the Byrnes is one of those 'end-less' machines. That makes things indeed more complicated. However, as you obviously will need a lot of LH rope, it may be worthwile to reconfigure the machine. 

[KeithAug]

19 hours ago, BANYAN said:

It can be done, but it takes a LOT of patience

Maybe it works better in the northern hemisphere where it was made😁😁  bath drain effect 😁

[BANYAN]

Work progresses: I have now completed and fitted the lower studding/swing booms in their brackets etc - I will post a photo later.  In the meantime, I have started on the fore-and-aft booms.  I am about 75% complete on the fore-boom.  At this scale (1:72) these do not turn out very big as you can see.  I have had to resort to Turkish Boxwood for the jaws as everything else was breaking.  It took me a while to develop a method for making them, but persistence paid off.  I have started on the mast furniture, with the first hoop completed and to show the method, the outer one under construction.  Due to their flattish overall shape, the only way to get these on is to use strip brass, bend to shape and join the band under the jaws once blackened.

 

I have yet to shorten the length by about 5 or 6mm at the outer end - I have left a little on as I have yet to cut-in a sheave slot and I wanted some 'meat' left on so I can do this a little easier.  I have also started on the spider band; the band is made and drilled for three eyes which I will solder into these holes then smooth the inner side of the band.  The hole has been drilled for an eye under and over the jaws just forward of the hollow for the throat halliard and downhaul.  The last thing will be to put in some simulated bolts through the jaws and boom.

 

cheers

 

Pat

 

[BANYAN]

I am also trying to find some information on the rigging chain used.  The Rigging Warrant expresses the sizes as say 9/16" which is the correct way and is the 'wire' diameter (thickness of the metal not the link).  I have found some rules-of-thumb for determining the ship's anchor cable sizes, but not how to determine the overall size of each chain link.  In the following drawing I am trying to determine the opposite to what they are - i.e. I have the wire diameter but need a link length and width (the latter in particular).

 

Brady (The Kedge Anchor) 1852 - as shown in the table below - informs that chain used for rigging was called 'short link chain' in this period, but again gives it as 'diameter' - has anyone come across a 'rule-of-thumb for determining the chain link overall link size similar to that as shown for an anchor cable (third pic)? NB - this rule of thumb is for modern cable.  I need this to determine the sheave size which in turn drives the sheave slot size - wider but shallower sheave grooves were used with chain.

 

Any info/pointers would be greatly appreciated.  

 

Cheers

 

Pat

 

[wefalck]

Interesting question, indeed. I had a quick look into 

 

*MIDDENDORF, F.L. (1903): Bemastung und Takelung der Schiffe.- 401 p., Kassel (reprint 1977 by Horst Hamecher).

 

while he gives dimensioned drawings and tables for virtually everything you can think of, there is nothing on the chains themselves. At that time they must have been already standardised industrial products. However, he mentions in passing, that chains running over blocks should be short-link chains. That seems logic, because they would run smoother around the sheaves, than longer-linked ones.

 

I think an inside length of the link of 2.5 times the wire diameter would look right for short-link chain.

 

Anchor-chains, when running around sprockets (or any other type of chain used with sprockets) would need somewhat longer links to accomodate sufficiently sized fingers.

 

----------

* BTW, Middendorf designed and rigged, among others, the only five-mased ship PREUSSEN.

Edited October 24, 2022 by wefalck

[BANYAN]

Thanks Eberhard, appreciate your time looking.  Pity there isn't as much info available in contemporary literature.  As you say, it should have been somewhat standardised by 1855.  Thhe tid-bit on short-link chain on rollers is useful.

 

The reason I ask, is that Victoria used chain for the tye (among other rigging that ran through blocks).  For the topmast, gin blocks were specified for the chain tye in the Rigging Warrant, but no blocks are listed against chain for the topgallant tye.  This infers a tye sheave cut into the mast at the topgallant stop.  BUT as chain needs a wider sheave, and the mast diameter at this point is only 5.3" diameter, that would seriously weaken the mast.  The chain is specified at 9/16" wire diameter but I would really like to find a rule of thumb for the chain width and for the slot.    Fincham provides a rule of thumb for slot length (1 and 1/6) sheave diameter but I can find nothing on width for rope or for chain except for a comment by Fincham that the sheave for chain is shallower in the groove, bigger in the mouth and overall wider than for a rope sheave pully.

 

cheers

 

Pat

[rwiederrich]

And I thought I was being detailed in my research.  You’re dedication to even chain/sheave mating is epic.   I simply used the smallest LPI I could find and used it for the tye, then made the gin Bloch to match. 
 

You’re amazing. 
 

Rob

Edited October 27, 2022 by rwiederrich

[BANYAN]

😁Thanks Rob.  Actually, I am not too concerned with the model as I have also used smallest chain I can find.  Simply trying to establish whether a sheath will have been cut into that part of the mast (TG stop) or a Gin/Other block used - but nothing listed against the chain Tye for TG in the Rigging Warrant.  If a slot, there was not much meat left in the cheeks as a chain sheave was wider than for rope.  I am leaning towards a block, even if not listed.

 

cheers

 

Pat

[BANYAN]

Eberhard, after a little more searching I have found a website that provides some guidance even if for steel short-link chain to Australian standards (Haosail Website) - iron links were probably a little larger?  After applying the rules-of-thumb from Fincham, and using the table details for link width based on 8mm which is close to 5/16" chain listed in the Rigging Warrant for the TG tye), I arrived at the following.

The overall dimensions for the Tye sheave slot were 6¼” long, 1 13/₁₆” wide.  As the topgallant section of the combined mast is 5 ^5/₁₆” where the slot is cut, the width would not have left much ‘meat’ on the spar (about 1¼” either side) - noting they were also copper lined. 

 

I think this would seriously weaken the mast which still had the pole (Royal) extension above it.  Even though the Rigging Warrant does not list any blocks associated with the TG Tye, I think I will use a gin block as that is what is used with the Topyard Tye.

 

I would appreciate any further thoughts or suggestions?

 

cheers

 

Pat

 

 

[Vladimir_Wairoa]

On 8/5/2022 at 3:59 AM, BANYAN said:

Hi folks, this post is one for those interested in just how much scale rope would be required to fully rig a vessel in the mid-19th century (steam/sail).  HMCSS Victoria was rigged as a three masted Barque with a full outfit of fore-and-aft sails).  After transcribing a copy of her Rigging Warrant into an Excel Spreadsheet, I used some background formulas and pivot tables to calculate the various sizes of thread I would need and was very surprised with the result.  This may not surprise the more experienced modellers, but needing over 71 metres of running rigging scale rope was somewhat enlightening for me   (and that doesn't include some of the extraneous stuff like lacings, some rigging tackles, gun tackles, boat rigging (5 x boats) etc. 

 

Please note that I am using silver grey thread to simulate the wirerope rigging - using wire would simply destroy the rigging fittings at this scale.  I am posting an example of one of the worksheets (that for the Bowsprit and combined Jib Boom) the spreadsheet.

 

The scary bit - how do I make 0.1mm rope  I think I will just have to find some suitable sized thread, or simply round these out a bit and use say only 3 or 4 sizes but stick to the principle of lighter ropes to the upper rigging etc.

 

cheers

 

Pat

this is impressive Pat. I guess I will have to proceed similar way with my clipper for not crying later on.:) Thanks for suggestion 

[BANYAN]

While I have been continuing to research the rigging outfit, another member has completed a remake of one of the lifeboat-cutters.  The Victoria carried two, one of 27' the other 30' - the remake was to correct the length of the second one as we found that info a little later.  I have still to add a vermillion painted rubbing strake, the falls hook on/slinging points and a few details, such as boat badges, masts, ropes, bailers, etc. 

 

These boats had cork, covered with canvas, floatation in the bow, stern and along the sides which is why they look so 'full/thick'.  

 

cheers

 

Pat

[Jim Lad]

Nice looking boats, mate!

 

John

[KeithAug]

21 hours ago, BANYAN said:

another member has completed a remake of one of the lifeboat-cutters. 

What are they made from Pat? I cant work out whether they are wooden or printed.

[BANYAN]

Thanks John.

Hi Keith, the whole is made from wood.  The hull was carved from a block then hollowed out to shape; then the lining simulating cork covered with canvas) added.  I have still to add duckboards, lifting gear etc.  We have omitted the tholes at the moment as they are so small art this scale - but I am tempted to do this when I add the pre-painted (vermillion) rubbing strakes and boat badges in the bow.

 

I have yet to come to grips whether hanging loops would have been included with the rubbing strakes, for men to hang onto or assist their scrambling into the boat.  The UK Life Saving boats were starting to show them, but not evident in the NMM model.

 

cheers

 

Pat

[Louie da fly]

While researching flags for the Cerberus, I came across this article which outlines two flags used for Victoria's navy prior to 1870, and probably flown on the HMCSS Victoria. Thought you might be interested.

 

https://prov.vic.gov.au/explore-collection/provenance-journal/provenance-2012/crown-and-kangaroo-victorian-flags

 

Steven

[BANYAN]

Hi Steven, thanks for the link.  I was aware of this as the author lives near me and we have discussed this quite a bit.  I think his research is spot on for the flag and I am using it in the Victoria.  Thanks for taking the time to put this up.

 

cheers

 

Pat

[wefalck]

Pat, I noticed a veeery long hiatus since your last post on VICTORIA. Any idea, when work will resume?

 

[BANYAN]

Hi Eberhard; many thanks for the consideration.  I am slowly getting back into it.  I still have issues with my hands shaking (not Parkinsons) which slows me on many days, but my GP is trying some new meds which may help further.  Due to me laying off for that and a few other factors I sort of lost the 'mojo' (desire) to work on the model and became easily distracted in doing other things in the workshop    I must say that your, and a couple of other modellers, recent updates helped motivate me.  

 

In the past week or two I have restarted work on the spars with the three booms almost complete.  Then I'll start on the gaffs and the upper masts (all upper masts are 'in one' with a combined top, top-gallant and royal mast).  In the meantime I had to continue my research on them, the rigging and the sails which has been progressing steadily.  I needed that sorted to finish the drawings to allow me to make up the spars.  I am still trying to work out ways to make the upper mast as the royal sections in particular are very slender at scale (under 2mm) and I need to insert/show an embedded lightening protection 'copper path' in all spars.  This will be pretty delicate and I am still not sure if I can pull that off.  Anyway, long story short - slowing increasing my time in the workshop doing model related work, but as the parts are repetitive at this point there is not much that is new to put online - but I will put-up some updates sooner rather than later (I know I have said that before  .

 

Again, many thanks for thinking of me; much appreciated.

 

cheers

 

Pat