Lady Nelson by vossiewulf - Amati/Victory Models - 1:64

[vossiewulf]

Thanks Rick, with all the books on rigging I thought it wouldn't be hard to find, but it seems there isn't much coverage of anchors for smaller ships.

[Rick01]

Don't know if this helps but there is a mention of smaller ship anchors here. 

 

[vossiewulf]

1 hour ago, Rick01 said:

Don't know if this helps but there is a mention of smaller ship anchors here. 

Thanks Rick. My question is more about how they lashed the anchor up to stow it rather than the knot on the anchor; as that thread shows, there seem to have been only three or four options for knots, largely based on the size of the anchor. I really don't know much about how lashings were done other than lots of winds around, and was the double block that runs to the cathead there all the time, or just when they were fishing the anchor? I have some drawings of stowed anchors, but they're big bowyer anchors on ships of the line and I imagine the practice in cutters was somewhat different.

 

The evil @Chuck sent me very nice 2mm blocks, they have the same quality as the larger blocks. I can see how they're made, but I'm not sure how they're made without turning Chuck into a gibbering lunatic. I strung them on .008 line to prevent losing them one by one, this way I can lose them all in one shot

 

Anyway, he's forced me into serving .008" line and stropping 2mm blocks because they're the perfect size for a 3 pounder gun tackle. My first effort below was marginal, need to figure out better ways to do a couple steps. This may take a while

 

Edited March 8, 2019 by vossiewulf

[Rick01]

Going to be fun working on that bit of the gun tackle! I tried, failed and decided it was better to leave off than stuff up! As for the double block on the cathead I can't see that it would be taken down when not in use. Much easier to bring it up tight to the top and stow the rope having tied it off on a cleat or handy belaying pin. When in doubt I go for the "common sense" guess on the basis that 99.999% of those seeing it won't know if it is wrong. 😉

 

Rick

[vossiewulf]

19 hours ago, Rick01 said:

Going to be fun working on that bit of the gun tackle!

Thanks Rick, yes oodles

 

V2 using my new hyper-advanced 2mm block-stropping jig, which consists of two pieces of carbon fiber rod thinned down to .007" and stuck into a piece of basswood. Actually I guess it's semi-advanced because I know of no material other than CF that could do this, only CF has the rigidity and strength, next closest being music wire. But you'd have to have .007" on hand and it would be much more bendy. Trust me you want to have some CF rod in different sizes someplace on your workbench!

 

Anyway, V2 looks better but still with too much glue. V3 and onward should be usable.

 

[vossiewulf]

I made up one set of blocks and hooks, and although the hooks are as small as I can make them without going to more extreme measures (as you will see I already filed down one tip of round-nose pliers as far as I could), I'm not going to be able to fit these tackles as there just isn't enough room- even with the guns run out, the blocks would be butting up against each other. 

 

I'll look and see if anyone has photoetched eye hooks that are small enough and maybe grab some 32 gauge wire and figure out if I can make them smaller, but otherwise this was good practice for the rigging since nothing I need to do there will be as small and fiddly as this was.

 

 

[No Idea]

I have had a very enjoyable Sunday afternoon reading you build from start to the present.  I think your approach to using edged tools is absolutely commendable and your build is beautiful, there is so much to learn right here.  Having seen this I am very tempted to buy some carving tools from Mikhail and was wondering if there is a webpage to look at there tools?  I'm looking forward to the next update.

[src]

Vossie,

Those are some small blocks and hooks indeed! Congrats on even seizing them. I have enough trouble with Chucks 3/32 blocks.

Regarding your hooks, would it be possible to eliminate the ring and replace it with a straight end? You could epoxy them in like an eye bolt. A bit of judicious faux seizing and perhaps nobody will see the difference. Except you and those of us watching...... 😀 Just a thought.

Sam

[tkay11]

We had a discussion about this in August 2016 in relation to stowing the anchor on the Sherbourne. In the end I followed the diagrams from Harland's Seamanship in the Age of Sail.

 

The general discussion was at

 

I showed this on the model at

 

I hope this helps.

 

Tony

[vossiewulf]

10 hours ago, No Idea said:

I have had a very enjoyable Sunday afternoon reading you build

Glad you had fun reading it. As far as I know Mikhail doesn't have a web site, he doesn't really need to advertise- word of mouth keeps him fully busy. He only has a few options anyway, mostly having to do with the number of tools and the handle type, he does palm or pen handle. Send me a PM and I'll dig up his email address if you don't have it.

5 hours ago, src said:

Regarding your hooks, would it be possible to eliminate the ring and replace it with a straight end?

as far as I can see, what is correct is the block having a seized eye to which the eye hook is attached. If someone can show me an alternative arrangement being used I'd be happy to do that.

 

1 hour ago, SpyGlass said:

somewhere on here I think I posted a couple of pics of an anchor stowed as you are asking about - i shall have a look in my picture files again tomorrow if you cant find them

Thanks  It looks like Tony has provided some good drawings and pics, hopefully those will resolve the confusion for me.

 

1 hour ago, tkay11 said:

We had a discussion about this in August 2016 in relation to stowing the anchor on the Sherbourne

Thanks Tony, very helpful

 

[vossiewulf]

I got some 32 gauge copper wire and managed to make an eye hook roughly half the size of the previous ones, but it's still not good enough, as below. There just seems to be not enough room here, if I had known this I would have positioned the ringbolts for the train tackle inward at least one plank width.

 

But at the same time I also have to wonder whether they really used train tackles for 3 pounders, they seem small enough that handspikes and muscle were enough.

 

So I'm gluing in the guns finally and working on the anchors, and have made buoys. If I'm doing buoys I suppose I should put them well up in the shrouds as Chuck does for Cheerful, he says that's what they did. But it looks pretty odd, I have no idea why they would have done that other than maybe the goal was to throw the buoy as far as possible and the elevation of being up on the shrouds helped. Also I guess a line has to run from the buoy coil all the way to the anchors, will have to see how to do that.

 

And I don't see a spot to belay the anchor-fishing line that comes from the blocks on the cathead, so I'll have to add a cleat on the cathead, or belay them to the timberheads next to the catheads, but that is where I was intending to put the stopper lines. I wish I know more about what I am doing.

 

And I need to get back to mounting the rudder, all the parts are done. I just have been avoiding it because it will be tricky to get right and I haven't thought of a good clamping/jig arrangement to make it easier.

 

[BANYAN]

Vossie, I can understand you are wanting to recreate the actual becket, hook etc but at this scale, and as suggested above, a small 'cheat' may be called for.  With your fly tying skills see what the following might look like: 

 

I am not sure of the era  or whether iron bound blocks may have been available?  If not iron bound, predrill one end of the block to the size wire you are making the hooks from.  Then pass a 'wrap' (strop) of cordage around the block with no becket either end.  Before tightening the strop, put a length of 'seizing' (fly tying thread) between the strop and heel of the block at the undrilled end, tighten and glue the ends of the simulated strop to the block (or use a single hitch and glue) to secure it.  On the other end of the block (drilled) glue in the end of a hook (made with no eye) with sufficient 'shank' extending to wrap a few turns of the seizing/fly thread.  The other end (with the fly thread dangling) is used to tie the block to the eyebolt on the carriage.  If two hooks are required repeat the hook 'cheat' both ends.

 

At this scale it would still look like a stropped block unless closely inspected - the wrapped thread around the bit of hook shank simulating the becket.  This may save a fair bit of 'length' on both blocks and maybe give you enough room?  Worth a try even if not authentic?

 

cheers

 

Pat

[vossiewulf]

Ok Pat, I will give it a spin

 

[src]

4 hours ago, vossiewulf said:

 I wish I know more about what I am doing.

That's half the fun;venturing off into the unknown! I feel you though, I struggle with the same thing on my build. Hang in there you will figure out something that works for you.

Sam

[popeye the sailor]

really nice progress Vossie........    the cannons look great!

[Gregory]

This showed up in another discussion..

 

Eyebolt No Collar

 

Might be what you need for making smaller hooks.

[vossiewulf]

2 hours ago, Gregory said:

This showed up in another discussion..

 

Eyebolt No Collar

Thanks Gregory! I'll order some.

[Gregory]

Make note!  The spru has several sizes, and there are only ten of the smallest size...

[KeithAug]

On 3/13/2019 at 8:29 AM, vossiewulf said:

I got some 32 gauge copper wire and managed to make an eye hook roughly half the size of the previous ones, but it's still not good enough, as below

Isn't it annoying when your fingers are just too big. Very nice work despite your finger problem.

[vossiewulf]

Haven't had much time to work on this, spent most of yesterday on a conference call because Barclay's screwed up a maintenance release and started failing all their transactions, lots of impact to our merchant base.

 

I have three pics. One is done puddening, which is very probably the most ridiculest sailing jargon word I've come across. It took me several tries with various types of normal and fly-tying thread before I got something usable. The anchors are done, just need to rig them to the ship.

 

Pat, as you see I've tried your suggestion on the blocks, I think it may work  I will make the single-block version tomorrow and see if we have enough room now for a proper train tackle.

 

And I also made V2 of my rigging posts, now with 100% more cleats.

 

[BANYAN]

Glad to hear it may work out; main thing is to satisfy yourself that it looks right

 

cheers

 

Pat

[vossiewulf]

So as you see it looks like I have to give up the becket and the eye on the line and just seize the line directly to the single block, but it will work. It's distressing that I have to make significant compromises on the accuracy of the rigging; unlike with airplanes where I know based on scale what I can and can't do, I really don't know what you can get away with at what scales in ships.

 

It's also distressing as that means you can't do really good rigging below 1/48, and 1/48 is monstrously big models. Well at least you can't do really good rigging without making yourself a range of specialized super-miniature tools, which I may have to do.

 

Even so, with the nice blocks and line from @Chuck and the right size fly line, the tackles will still look nice and of course only a tiny minority of the people who will look at it will have any idea that anything is missing. It was originally @src's suggestion to eliminate the eyes and beckets but @BANYAN twisted my arm into giving it a try. You're both right, you have to be an eagle-eyed ship modeler to see that things have been simplified and the deck will look much better with the train tackles in place, thanks

 

 

[src]

Vossie, those look great to my eye! Kudos to you for wanting to do things "right." Something I have been trying to tell myself as I learn this hobby is to think of how far away scale-wise we are working on is. From 64 feet away I think those are quite convincing Under the circumstances you've done quite well and persevered, next build will be even better.

Just my two cents for whatever that's worth.

Sam

 

[BANYAN]

Vossie, the rigging detail is very neat and trim; looks good.

 

For what it is worth (note for future builds), there may not have been a ring on the eyebolt as the block's tail hook would just as easily engage with the eye of the eyebolt itself - gain a couple of mm by removing the ring?   Also (too late now of course) but the eyebolts may have been set back a bit further also?

 

cheers

[vossiewulf]

Sorry Pat thought I had already responded but left it in the editor- I considered removing the rings but it wouldn't have bought enough space to return the beckets and eyes, that's where I was saying something is generally amiss here as there just fundamentally isn't enough room. My understanding of the recoiled/loading position was that the muzzle of the gun was inboard, but here we have less distance between the end of the carriage and the ring than the length of the carriage itself, which means there's no way the muzzle of the gun is going to be inboard after firing and securing with the train tackle. So either the carriages and guns are too big for this ship or the rings need to be considerably nearer the deck center line. And that wouldn't work on one of the guns that's backed up by a big grate.

 

So I've gone with the simpler rig, not to say that they're simple to make now, it's still brain surgery but doing so has made it look at least vaguely like those tackles could have been used to do something.

 

For anyone intending to build Lady Nelson, had I to do it over, I'd move the big grate more toward the stern to clear the one gun it interferes with, move the windlass to the other side of the grate, and move all the train tackle eyebolts much closer to the center of the deck.

 

I'm not making an effort to make the coils perfect and in the same place, my intent is to have it look not like it's ready for inspection but cleared for action. 

 

Speaking of that, shouldn't there have been... I've forgotten what they're called but the trays for cannon shot someplace? Admittedly you can carry a 3 pounder round in one hand but I would still think there should be some ready supply on deck somewhere.

 

 

Edited March 25, 2019 by vossiewulf

[KeithAug]

Very smart looking deck, lovely detail.

[BANYAN]

That looks pretty good Vossie.

 

cheers

 

Pat

[vossiewulf]

So many hours for "pretty good." Sigh

 

Guns done, on to rigging the anchors. After looking at the pics, I'm not done with the guns, it seems the left side breeching rope eye on the pictured gun got turned 90 degrees somehow.

 

Edited April 1, 2019 by vossiewulf

[Cabbie]

Howdy Vossie

Definitely a great looking build, another one of those builds where I would swear

that I was standing on the wharf looking down into a ship.

Cheers Chris

[BANYAN]

Sorry Vossie, you need to get used to us Aussies - our typical response to being asked 'how are you',  is "not half bad mate" - so 'pretty good' is a 'real compliment'    -  Glad I didn't say 'That's not bad mate' - I may have been run out of town    

 

cheers

 

Pat