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Thistle17

PBR Mark 1 River Patrol Boat by Model Shipwright Guild WNY - Scale 1:6

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We are nearing the point where we have to decide on the conformal coating for the hull. It is taking a good deal more attention to fair the hull than we expected. We are still betwixt and between glassing the hull and using some other conformal coating such as they use on "Bitchin Rides" on the Motor Trend Channel for cars. I have sent them an e-mail but they have not responded. The material appears to have a reasonable open time, is yellow in color, and can be leveled with what appears to be large screed boards. It is not Nitro Stan nor is it any of the 2 part levelers that are termed "Easy Sand". These cannot be used over large ares as they set up way too fast. The glassing approach we would fall back on is likely to be the modelers fine mesh cloth with the attendant 2 part gel/hardener.

 

Does any body know the product i.e. the yellow compound used in auto body fairing? I get blank stares at the auto body supply houses.

Joe

 

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There's a ton of brush on and spray on conformal coatings available.  Almost down to "close your eyes and pick one".  Watch the credits at the end of "Bitchin' Rides" and see what they list.  You might need to tape it and play it back in slow motion to see it, though.

 

A lot of electronic manufacturers still use a brush on conformal coating that's epoxy based.   Been awhile since I've been around one to remember what was being used.

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Mark I have contacted them twice through there web site Kindig It Design but have yet to hear from them. In looking more completely on line my use of the term "conformal coating" may have been inappropriate. That comes from my days working with electronic circuit boards which were coated to reduce the effects of environmental conditions. That product material was never meant to be sanded once applied and if the board was repaired it had to be patch coated again.

 

If I do not hear from them in the next 2 weeks we will revert to the hobby mesh fiber cloth and we will glass it. I just hate working with it because of VOCs.

Joe

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Use epoxy with the fiberglass cloth.  West System is the best but very pricey.  I have used it for model hulls and their dispensing plungers work great in getting an exact mix.  Works just like the polyester resin without the odor.

Kurt

 

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Thanks GrandpaPhil I knew someone had an answer out there. I did try once more at the Kindig It web site and this time they have an auto response of who to reach for subject specifics. That wasn't an access for me before. I am off and running to see if that will fit the bill! Thank you very much.

 

And here is the PDF for usage. One can use it on wood and it has a reasonable open time before it starts to setup. http://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/649535O/3m-golden-extra-filler-01127-01177-01277-01317.pdf

Joe

Edited by Thistle17
More info

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Hello,

 

Sorry for jumping into this thread late but the issue of getting boat drawings from the Navy caught my attention. I work at Combatant Craft Division where all these riverine craft drawings are kept in digital format. I am seeing what can be done to get public release for these drawings, manuals, reports, photos, etc. but that might be a long row to hoe.

 

I cannot release any of this myself.  But, what I can do is give specific drawing numbers for FOIA requests in hopes for a better outcome.

 

For example there are about 14 drawing for the PBR Mk1, and it appears you got 3? There is nothing sensitive in those drawings that should preclude you from getting all of them.

 

I may have missed it in the thread, but I'm curious, what was charged for getting the three drawings?

 

Regards,

 

Tom

Edited by 12Bravo20

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Tom:

That is very good news indeed. We were quite puzzled when we tried to get the drawings the first time around that it was so difficult. Even when one of our group who is retired ex-Navy in the ship building end of things tried. I am going to relay to him your findings/observations. he is away in sunny Florida right now so it may take a bit of back and forth exchanges.

 

You are kind to offer help. Also the Navy gave us the drawings there was no charge.

 

Joe

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Back to getting the hull ready for painting. I was at the museum today and experimented with the 3M Golden Edge FILLER. Therein is the operative word. It is no easier to apply than the 3M Platinum Plus Glaze. There is the other key word. It's open time is about 3 to 4 minutes as described in the worksheet. It dries rock hard and can be applied up to 1/4 inch thick. It is tough to hand sand but does give a decent substrate finish for a surface glazing. I had to resort to drywall sanding sheets of 80 grit to bring down the surface as it clogs regular sand paper quickly. As a surface re-enforcement it is quite good for a display model it is overkill in my estimation. We will revert back to the 3M Platinum Plus Glaze prior to finish painting.

IMG_1122[1].JPG

Edited by Thistle17

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Slowly but surely we are getting there. Today I applied the Rage filler shown in the accompanying picture after machine fairing the Golden Edge  (greenish) compound previously applied. The Rage product (light blue compound) is also a filler but it has properties that make it much easier to use. It is a less viscous compound and it has a slightly longer open time for working. When it comes time to sand it is much easier to sand and that alone makes it preferable. Here is the port side almost ready for final sanding. It will then be primed and glazed and if need be primed again.

IMG_1128[1].JPG

Edited by Thistle17

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We are still here but not as active as we wish. As I am sure you all know life can get in the way. In any event we have an important update regarding reference modeling material. A good Samaritan on the west coast was able to get all the PBR drawings declassified through contacts that provided an avenue into the archives. The drawings we obtained were of good use but did not have what I would describe as next level detail. For example the drawings and dimensions of the forward tub for the 50 caliber guns. Well we have them now and we will have to give credit to our colleague Joel on the west coast. Our lead "general contractor" is now converting those drawings to 1:6 scale for our use. This windfall is going to save us so much time. We are truly grateful!

 

So Tom we are all set and thank you for your efforts.

 

Since February little has been done on the model but will start up again as soon as this week. We have to finish the starboard side fairing but after that it we will begin the inboard floor and skins.

 

We do have some additional pressure afoot. The Military History Society Museum, which hosts us, is expanding. In the new addition there is a display area for this model that awaits us. It will be in somewhat of a diorama presentation, at dockside, in the process of being loaded up for a mission. No pressure eh?

 

Joe

Edited by Thistle17

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Yes, we have been off the radar since April. Too many projects, not many hands on deck and oh so little time have contributed to a slow down in the build. However I will lament no further as 4 of our group has been diligently but sparingly been at it since April. So in the attached photo is somewhat of a milestone for us. We have completed inner skins and applied a false deck forward of the control station. We have added the bulkwarks that will form the platform aft of the control station that conceals the engine fuel area. We have also added the aft rail and some of the side rail. In process are the engine air intakes (the dark area in the plan above) with one trial fitted today. The open area forward is the beginning of the twin gun turret which will be added in much more detail in the coming weeks. As soon as the air intakes are completed the contoured deck will be fashioned all the way to the bow. It is quite oddly shaped and we have had to constantly refer to the photos supplied by our friends at Patriots Point. As soon as we are satisfied with the deck construction the unit will be prepped for spray painting of the hull with primer. We have to get to that point soon as we are not permitted to use spray equipment even in this storage area.

IMG_1322[1].JPG

 

IMG_1318[1].JPG

Edited by Thistle17
Bad photo

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I revisited this last post as the reference to the fuel tanks was bothering me in terms of the amount of space forward of the newly placed bulkheads. I stand corrected the fuel tanks are under the deck area where the pilot would stand ( god help those guys as these boats had no armor to my knowledge around the tanks). The open space is actually access to the engines.

Joe

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We moved the model to my workshop late last week and we find it much easier to work on. Lighting, room around the model and access to my woodworking tools (both hand and machine) make for smoother operation. Also the storage area at the museum was not air conditioned so summer work there was uncomfortable. The shop, literally is now a "model shop", stays at about 67 degrees with a RH of about 58%. That is the good news! The bad news is I have lost half my work area to this very large model!

 

Once set up here we began anew. The photo of the aft section shows a propped up configuration of the air intake on the starboard side and in the foreground are the sub assemblies for the port side. There will be final fit and set in as soon as we get the "rails correct.

 

The photo of the bow section shows the forward template set on top of the false deck for the "rail" around the deck. It rises from station 11 (at the engine compartment) from near zero height to the bow where it is nearly an inch high. We are planning on building it up out of 1/4" basswood and hand tapering it to drawing measurements. Notice the brass  measurement blocks in the background. They will help define that height as we plane down the "rail".

 

We did encounter a problem when we applied the bow template shown in the last photo to the bow area. Somehow our bulkheads at station 3 forward did not capture the flare out at the deck of the hull. It is extreme. No doubt this was to minimize water spray on the open seas at high speed. Underneath the template is a 1/16" thick basswood copy of that template attached to the false deck. It will guide us in fairing in the hull in the aforementioned area. Luckily it is at the correct level of the sheer line. Also the bow itself was found to be more bulbous that our first try at it. Out came the belt sander and now it is near true to form.

 

It is still not ready for the "prom" but maybe just maybe it soon will be. We have called in some volunteers who will be working on the helm area and the forward gun turret. In regards to the latter there were no dimensioned drawings for the detail of that area. So yet another volunteer used the dimensions of the model 50 caliber machine guns to create a working drawing.

 

My earlier lament about "few hands on board" seems to have had some effect.

 

Joe

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Edited by Thistle17

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I'm a bit late to the party on this interesting log. I didn't see it mentioned that the PBR Training Center was located in my "cruising waters" up until around 1997. I wouldn't think your initial impression that most all of them were left in Vietnam was accurate by a long shot. (Somebody may have confused PBRs and Vietnam with PTs after WWII.) PBRs on training exercises were all over the Bay and sloughs around Mare Island in Vallejo, CA. Mare Island had a whole flotilla of them. I believe there was also a PBR base in Subic Bay well after the Vietnam era.

 

Mare Island, the first Naval Shipyard on the West Coast, established in the mid-Nineteenth Century is now decommissioned, but has preserved its extensive historical record. They have a good museum there which covers PBRs. and They also have one on display at the Mare Island Museum. The Mare Island Museum may well be a good resource for you.

 

There's a lot of information on the restoration of a very early (Hull #2 out of the Uniflight plant, I believe) now privately owned in New Zealand. There's a ton of photos and plans on their website, including a photo of a builder's model with the owner of Uniflight. See: https://www.pbr722.com/history#!

 

9039c6_9a788b4fa21a4dd9951df82e663267bb~
 
PBR training flotilla at Mare Island Riverine Training Center. (All PBR and Swift Boat crews were trained there through the late 1990's.)
 
9039c6_7c41824c4b0e4153b66c291cad0ebd32~
Edited by Bob Cleek

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Bob thank s for your input. Your input is valued and I stand corrected. I had picked that erroneous information up on another site. It is somewhat ironic that we should receive your input as I was handed a listing of PBRs in either individual or group hands  just yesterday. I believe the reference you cite is one in the same source. And this Mare Island reference is one to follow up on. How did that get by us?

 

Again thank you.

Joe

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Build development moves on and the hull is beginning to see the addition of more detail. The "rail" earlier cited is proving to be somewhat of a challenge in that the lamination method and the curvature fairing, especially when considering the tapering of the inside curvature to it's desired uniform top dimensions is required. Sections are being made up of the 1/4 inch basswood and dry fitted to the hull. At the moment I am contemplating a build up lamination off the bow (much like a hull frame) and shaping much of it "in hand" so to speak. Pictures of a starboard assembly to follow.

 

While the stern detail is proceeding, without episode, one of our members has begun the aft tripod for the 50 caliber machine gun. We have a decent redrawn and dimensioned picture of the tripod and this is supplemented by one of the archival photos we have in our drop box. However the photo attached does not give sufficient detail in regards to how the gun is mounted to the tripod. If someone out there has a better photo source it would be helpful if you could give us the reference.

 

Posting update 8/11/2019: We are extremely grateful to our colleague on the west coast, Joel L., for supplying excellent archival photos of the gun mount and radios for our model construction. For those interested he has sent an archive reference for study. USN PBR Build Photos.pdf. Included is early build information of the very first PBRs.

 

I am now told that this is a Mark II PBR.  Yet I have to believe that the mount save the lower level is of little difference to the Mark I.

 

Joe

mL_JfBwJ.jpeg

14.JPG Mrk I's had a tripod mount

Edited by Thistle17

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Well here it is September and it has been over a month of no postings. Summer's end whizzed right past and I have to report that we had a somewhat uneventful  build with the exception of the beautiful metal work by one of our members in his execution of the aft gun tripod. His replication is in brass and silver soldered joinery. Darkening was somewhat problematical for him as even though his work was well cleaned it did not take the darkening solution method well. He ultimately resorted to painting. He has yet to add the final gun support and armor shield but one should be confident that the end result will be nothing but spectacular. Obviously that is it in the 2nd attachment.

 

The PBR itself has had some build up in the aft section with the addition of the air intakes, the engine hatches and  build up of the bow and fore rails atop. They await planning and shaping from the bow to station 11 (i.e. 1inch high to deck height respectively). The open area, mid deck, is reserved for the forward gun tub which has been assigned to another group member.

Joe

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IMG_1356.crp.jpg

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Weather in upstate New York has been superb for the opening of the fall season so it has been hard to get back to the shop and work on the PBR. We forced the situation today though. Most of the work has been focused on shaping the "rail" that surrounds the bow to about 2/3 of the vessel. As stated earlier it starts out at 1" at the bow tapering to 0" at the mid point of the engine covers. I resorted to using my hand power planer to achieve the appropriate taper of the rail after marking off the taper using battens. I then smoothed the outside face roughly on my oscillating sander table and then used hand sanding to gain a satisfying contour. The inside was another matter. It has a taper from top side to its bottom. The complication is the taper is not uniform. Topside thickness was outlined using a template. Bottom side was also defined by its sister template. Using a spoke shave the inside taper was roughed out, moved to the oscillating sander and finally hand sanded close to finish dimension. Some Easy Sand was applied to void areas but for the most part it is ready for finish sanding, final fitting and install. As it turns out this depiction doesn't really show the taper well. Hopefully one gets the idea though.

 

Joe

IMG_1366.JPG

Edited by Thistle17

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If truth be told there was likely a smarter way to incorporate the upper rail as described previously. Note the grid work added to the sub deck to raise the actual deck to its proper height forward of the helm. The rail that will not be evident inboard need only have been beveled where it is visible and a good deal of the inboard shaping would have been unnecessary. One lives and learns. In any event the grid work will be skinned over and faired into the visible rail assembly. Another observation we made today is that the bow section of the rail has a slight rake outboard when we inspect the supplied photos given to us by the Patriots Point folk. That too is on the schedule to be modified prior to attachment of the bumper strip.

 

Also the air intake covers have been attached and the "rail" that advances forward from the covers is being integrated. It will terminate upon the rear members of the "grid work". That will be depicted in the next post.

 

Joe

IMG_1375.JPG

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Exceptional weather here in upstate New York. I mowed the lawn Sunday and snow-blowed the driveway on Tuesday after an 11 inch snowfall! The only good thing I can say about the weather is it drove us inside for the remainder of the week and Jim, a fellow group member and I were able to install the remainder of the internal rail works and the bulkhead for the helm today. We will trial fit the helm this week hopefully as that has been prepared off site by another group member. I must say without Jim's engineering support in terms of drawings and cataloging of all archival pictures we would not have had a relatively smooth go at this project. Jim comes naturally to this role as he is an ex Navy officer that had oversight responsibility for nuclear power plants on some naval vessels.

 

Beyond the helm work to be addressed we will now begin the process of infill for the true decking that runs from the bow towards the air intakes. This will include the forward deck skin and the forward gun turret deck frame out and top sides. The turret is to be farmed out to yet another group member. For those that might be visiting for the first time the model is just about 55 inches long.  

 

Don't be too critical of the overloaded work bench behind the model as this should be cleaned up before Thanksgiving. The table that the model sits on will hopefully have wheels before too long and this will enable parking it out of the way when other house projects take hold.

 

I have a question to ask. We are using Rage Easy Sand at the moment for infill. You will also note we are using spackle compound (sparingly as it were) as well. I for one am not fond of the latter becuase of its long term durability. The Rage is much stronger but it tends to set up a bit too fast (it is a 2 part compound) to achieve really satisfying results such as fillet radii without a lot of careful and long sanding. Anyone got some other ideas for a glazing compound?

 

Joe

IMG_1402[1].JPG

Edited by Thistle17

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Today we dry fitted the helmsman cowling and the forward decking. Forward of the cowling is the beginnings of the gun tub. The ring is the base support for the gun tub. Structure for the  deck above that will soon be added and that entire area will be decked over. While fitting the cowling for the helm we also determined the inner support/finish members that will be needed to complete the operational area of the helm. The control station (not shown) and the cowling were built off line by another member, Matt, following drawings supplied by our "building supervisor". Given the variability that could creep in base and off line development, assemblies have fit quite well.

Joe

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Edited by Thistle17

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