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Chuck

**Banned Kit Manufacturers on MSW - Pirated KITS Prohibited **

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Yes indeed.....They deleted your post over there but they left about two dozen others where Ancre plans were copied......

 

I will say it again....I dont know why folks are members there which props up the site and in turn props up and promotes piracy.   

 

We we will always have your back with this and support you here at MSW and teh NRG!!!

 

Just a few days ago the owner of that site wrote this with a straight face...

 

Now, this is also on my heart:
Here at SOS, I want to reinstate that you have the FREEDOM here to build what ever you wish. We do not believe in controlling your hobby, what you build, where you bought your kit from, who manufactured it.

 

 

But if that is their policy its fine but dont pretend piracy doesnt exist....at least own it.   Instead of being a coward just say its perfectly fine to build pirated kits.....

 

If he had any guts this is what he should wrote.. and YES this image was actually posted on that forum and was greeted with "hoorays" and "I cant wait for this Chinese kit" and nobody said wait a minute.....that's unethical.

 

Now, this is also on my heart:
Here at SOS, I want to reinstate that you have the FREEDOM here to build what ever you wish. We do not believe in controlling your hobby, what you build, where you bought your kit it from, who manufactured it even if its pirated and stolen from a legitimate author or designer just trying to make an honest living....praise Jesus.

 

 

 

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I am angry too but let us remember that this isnt about China....its about pirated kits.   We will soon see some great projects and kits made available that from some folks in China that I know who are producing legitimate stuff.     Its something that will be a breath of fresh air here on MSW.   If its an original design and product....EVEN FROM CHINA or RUSSIA....we welcome it with open arms here on MSW and the NRG.  Just not the other stuff.

 

Chuck

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It is kinda hard to hold their feet to the fire when they immediately delete any and all posts that point out their lack of ethics and morality. 

 

Just a thought, but isn't there a US Federal Law against openly supporting the theft of IP, promoting the development and sale of counterfiet goods.  Maybe DOJ should pay the Emperor of SOS a "courtesy call".   BTW when I was in the service SOS was something smelly  served on a Shingle.  ;)

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Not meaning to discourage this campaign,  but the probability approaches 1.0  that the pirates and those who support them meet the clinical definition of being a Sociopath.  Sociopaths are not really human in any social meaning of it.  They are the predators.  They do not respond to persuasion or appeals to ethics.  They respond to pain and not much else.  We would all be much better off if they could be forever isolated from the rest of us.

It is to be hoped that the majority of their customers are not fellow sociopaths and are open to appeals to ethics, logic  and  the fact that eating our seed corn and poisoning our common wells will lead to famine and thirst for all of us.

Edited by Jaager

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Back in 2014 when I restarted this hobby, I joined 2 forums, this one and another whose name I couldn't remember. I rapidly decided to make this one my home😀

 

So I thought I'd better check SOS. They have no record of me, so that saves me the trouble of leaving!

 

While I was there I did check their "Rules and Terms" page - it just contains a load of self-serving BS! 

 

So I will continue to stay well away from their fetid site and any other piracy.

 

Richard. 

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Somehow, there's a twisted logic (at least it's logic in their minds) that they don't "support" piracy but allow pirated kits on their site.  It makes my head spin.   

 

IF the big tech guys are having and had a hard time to stop theft of their IP, what chase does any small company have?   Having said that, I do wish ANCRE would take a stand and condemn the pirated use of their plans for the Chinese kits.   There's an old saying:  We either hang together or we will be hung separately.  Those who buy those kits just don't care what happens.  

 

All this raises a question:  If the Chinese end up driving all the kit and plans developers out of business, who will they steal from? Where will new models come from?

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I had a look. Interesting.

There is a disclaimer and a thread on copyright issues essentially justifying piracy on grounds that is needed because Chinese people do not have access to the original kits and also that the work to produce pirated kits essentially elevates them to original work status. MSW is criticised for its stance on Piracy. 

 

This site looks like it was set up as an advertising area to promote pirated kits from China, these are praised for their quality and customer support. I would not be surprised if it was directly funded as well.

 

Drink tea and keep calm as we say in this Kingdom.

 

 

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5 hours ago, lmagna said:

They do not limit themselves to international thievery Mark. They are just as quick to steal from each other, there is no honor among thieves.

I’m no expert on Asian culture but I think a large part of this issue is cultural- I saw it happen time and again dealing with the R/C hobby, they copied planes and radio technologies and you could even get the same stuff with different company badging - I think it’s just how they have always done business..... I have even considered trying something from China but the information here on MSW has made me think twice. I did however think that SOS was just staying neutral or was ignoring the implications- essentially leaving the choice up to each individual but this latest censorship and cover up has enlightened me and it is obvious they are at best unwilling to be accountable or hold people accountable for this piracy and worst case are actively supporting and perpetuating the extent of the problem.  I have been a member there for a year or so, but with the result of these latest posts I am deleting my membership there and I would like to call out to all of the other modelers at MSW that I have also seen on SOS to do the same, I feel like that is the most powerful message we could send to them, it probably won’t change anything except our own complacency and complicity in being duped by their disingenuousness......

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1 hour ago, ASAT said:

I’m no expert on Asian culture but I think a large part of this issue is cultural- I saw it happen time and again dealing with the R/C hobby, they copied planes and radio technologies and you could even get the same stuff with different company badging - I think it’s just how they have always done business..... I have even considered trying something from China but the information here on MSW has made me think twice. I did however think that SOS was just staying neutral or was ignoring the implications- essentially leaving the choice up to each individual but this latest censorship and cover up has enlightened me and it is obvious they are at best unwilling to be accountable or hold people accountable for this piracy and worst case are actively supporting and perpetuating the extent of the problem.  I have been a member there for a year or so, but with the result of these latest posts I am deleting my membership there and I would like to call out to all of the other modelers at MSW that I have also seen on SOS to do the same, I feel like that is the most powerful message we could send to them, it probably won’t change anything except our own complacency and complicity in being duped by their disingenuousness......

 

Well said, and well done, Lou.  

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7 hours ago, ASAT said:

I’m no expert on Asian culture but I think a large part of this issue is cultural- I saw it happen time and again dealing with the R/C hobby, they copied planes and radio technologies and you could even get the same stuff with different company badging - I think it’s just how they have always done business..... I have even considered trying something from China but the information here on MSW has made me think twice. I did however think that SOS was just staying neutral or was ignoring the implications- essentially leaving the choice up to each individual but this latest censorship and cover up has enlightened me and it is obvious they are at best unwilling to be accountable or hold people accountable for this piracy and worst case are actively supporting and perpetuating the extent of the problem.  I have been a member there for a year or so, but with the result of these latest posts I am deleting my membership there and I would like to call out to all of the other modelers at MSW that I have also seen on SOS to do the same, I feel like that is the most powerful message we could send to them, it probably won’t change anything except our own complacency and complicity in being duped by their disingenuousness......

 

That is great news, and MSW applauds you for doing so. If you can get any waverers you know who post there  to understand this in more detail, and the implications, maybe you could convince them also?

 

Piracy is crippling the creative output of people in our industry. Over at the 🤡 clownworld of SoS, they are actively promoting and cheerleading our hobby's demise. There are actually legal implications for it.

 

They really are dunderheads too...they try to blank the argument using the terrible analogy of a model of HMS Victory, for example. Chief clown thinks that, and has posted to this effect, that because a model of HMS Victory exists, every kit that follows it must in some way be a copy/pirate copy of the previous. He simply doesn't believe that companies will design their own models from the ground-up, using their own engineering design traits, reference and research whilst also following a legitimate copy of a ship plan. In his eyes, all these model components must be interchangeable......keel, bulkheads, bulwarks, etc. If he truly believes his own argument, then that says a lot about him.

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James - I'm not a member of that forum, but this thread sparked my curiosity. I read the post you refer to about HMS Victory and I must say I found it so disjointed and rambling as to be almost unintelligible. I had to smile when I saw that someone had responded with a "well said" post. Simply reinforces my already poor impression of anyone who would support the sort of blatant piracy promoted by that forum. I was surprised and disappointed to see that one of the moderators is someone I recognise as a former regular contributor to our forum - I assume he has been rightly banned now that he has gone over to the dark side.

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Hello Mikegr

1 hour ago, mikegr said:

if chinese kits are of bad quality then why they sell in such high prices

The problem is not the price although this is also a good point. The problem is that it takes months and years to design and make a new kit. The kit is an investment and it is the product of the designers work. 

So then another company, somewhere in another part of the world,  buys one of this new kit and copies it. Just blatantly copies it with no meaningful alterations, sometimes no alterations at all, even the instructions are simply copied. Then they start selling this ripped-off version at a lower price in the same small marketplace as the original manufacturer who did all the work.

 

That is the problem. It is theft and it destroys the incentive of anyone who is genuinely able to make a new kit because they know what will happen. 

 

In an ideal world it should not be possible for such activities to carry on but here we are. In practice the only safety valve,  the only brakes that can be used,  are market forces. That comes down to us, the target market , saying 'no' to pirated kits. 

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I am SOS member since my first time in this hobby in the beginning of 2019 and my inscription here. I am newbie and was unaware of the intellectual properties with SoS. But now, how can I be unsubscribed from the SoS site ? I do not find any way to remove my inscription, should I mail them ?

 

Thanks,

Michel

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Just now, Altima211 said:

I am SOS member since my first time in this hobby in the beginning of 2019 and my inscription here. I am newbie and was unaware of the intellectual properties with SoS. But now, how can I be unsubscribed from the SoS site ? I do not find any way to remove my inscription, should I mail them ?

 

Thanks,

Michel

There should be a way to contact a moderator and ask to be removed if that's what you desire.

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On 11/10/2019 at 10:37 AM, Chuck said:

I am angry too but let us remember that this isnt about China....its about pirated kits.   We will soon see some great projects and kits made available that from some folks in China that I know who are producing legitimate stuff.     Its something that will be a breath of fresh air here on MSW.   If its an original design and product....EVEN FROM CHINA or RUSSIA....we welcome it with open arms here on MSW and the NRG.  Just not the other stuff.

 

Chuck

That's interesting, Chuck. Are any of the following brands legit? YQ, MOHS, Crown Ship Models, Lu Hai Qing Kong, Yuan Qing Models. 

Keep up the great work and thanks. 

hipexec

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1 hour ago, CDW said:

There should be a way to contact a moderator and ask to be removed if that's what you desire.

I did that Monday the 11th, and haven’t heard anything back yet or been removed..... I will ping them again and see what happens. 

BTW - contacting them is the only way to delete your membership - it’s at the very bottom of the home page, “Terms and rules”

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On 11/12/2019 at 6:40 AM, ASAT said:

I’m no expert on Asian culture but I think a large part of this issue is cultural- I saw it happen time and again dealing with the R/C hobby, they copied planes and radio technologies and you could even get the same stuff with different company badging - I think it’s just how they have always done business..... I have even considered trying something from China but the information here on MSW has made me think twice. I did however think that SOS was just staying neutral or was ignoring the implications- essentially leaving the choice up to each individual but this latest censorship and cover up has enlightened me and it is obvious they are at best unwilling to be accountable or hold people accountable for this piracy and worst case are actively supporting and perpetuating the extent of the problem.  I have been a member there for a year or so, but with the result of these latest posts I am deleting my membership there and I would like to call out to all of the other modelers at MSW that I have also seen on SOS to do the same, I feel like that is the most powerful message we could send to them, it probably won’t change anything except our own complacency and complicity in being duped by their disingenuousness......

Not only Asian but in the greatest part of Asia even to Middle East.

Have been in many places every year from Dubai to Philippines and  I 've seen from 3 usd fake Adidas T-shirts to 50 usd fake Smith & Wesson.

To make it worse, Its not only China, its also India, Pakistan, Indonesia...A market well over 2 billion people...

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8 hours ago, HIPEXEC said:

Are any of the following brands legit? YQ, MOHS, Crown Ship Models, Lu Hai Qing Kong, Yuan Qing Models. 

Rich,

YQ (which is also Yuan Qing) is on the list on page 1 of this thread. The others I am not familiar with, but Chuck is more up-to-date on this continuously evolving threat than I am, so perhaps he'll know.

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On 11/14/2019 at 2:07 AM, mikegr said:

If chinese kits are of bad quality then why they sell in such high prices?

Because if they can sell ripped-off kits with no intellectual property investment to gullible or amoral Western customers for a similar price as the real thing, they make more money. Why wouldn't they? Capitalism only works when consumers pay attention; when they don't the system starts to break down and stuff like this sneaks through.

 

As much as I hate this practice, I do think it's important to try and separate the specific pattern here from a too-broad brush. Discussions like this can easily drift toward nastiness and commenters should remember that their own countries/cultures have their own flaws that others see and dislike (such as the perception, right or wrong, that the US is an arrogant bully that wants to protect its own power while restricting other countries from achieving the same status). I work with a lot of Asian clients through my editing business and they're just as diverse as anyone else.

 

This shouldn't turn majorly political, I just feel strongly that we should be careful to criticize the practice and the norms behind the practice while not painting China or any other culture/region with a brush broader than is warranted. Chuck accomplished this and others should keep it in mind.

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35 minutes ago, Cathead said:

Because if they can sell ripped-off kits with no intellectual property investment to gullible or amoral Western customers for a similar price as the real thing, they make more money. Why wouldn't they? Capitalism only works when consumers pay attention; when they don't the system starts to break down and stuff like this sneaks through.

 

As much as I hate this practice, I do think it's important to try and separate the specific pattern here from a too-broad brush. Discussions like this can easily drift toward nastiness and commenters should remember that their own countries/cultures have their own flaws that others see and dislike (such as the perception, right or wrong, that the US is an arrogant bully that wants to protect its own power while restricting other countries from achieving the same status). I work with a lot of Asian clients through my editing business and they're just as diverse as anyone else.

 

This shouldn't turn majorly political, I just feel strongly that we should be careful to criticize the practice and the norms behind the practice while not painting China or any other culture/region with a brush broader than is warranted. Chuck accomplished this and others should keep it in mind.

 

The difference is that in the West, we generally have excellent consumer protection and copyright laws that protect customer and developer. If the consumer wants to go off-piste and buy from a country which cares little for intellectual property, then more fool them. Their choice also hurts the hobby they claim to love. Mass copyright/intellectual property theft is not something we see in the west. This is typically, and largely, centred around China and Russia. And no, we aren't saying all kits made in those countries are pirated. Look back through this and you'll see that clearly stated.

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sad that there is no way to stop it :(   ...and to think,  I was involved with them when the site first started up....influential with the set up.  I left when this problem first surfaced.......my conversation with the owner fell on def ears,  so I told him I was out.   these glimpses are the first time I saw the site since I left.........strayed so far from their first conceptions.  I recall when you were banned from there Chuck.........I I banned those involved in your defense.........it made for a very interesting departure ;)   I feel bad for anyone who have had their ideas harvested like vegetables.   this is home :) 

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James, I wasn't referring to folks like you and Chuck. I was referring to the tendency for this discussion to become a broad-brush condemnation that goes beyond the issue at hand. People should certainly know that this issue is particularly rife in places like China with weak laws, I just think the language used by some commenters edges up against a line I'm personally uncomfortable being associated with.

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9 hours ago, ASAT said:

heard anything back yet or been removed

Be creative and post something inflammatory, colorful, and besmirching their lineage and profane then I think they will remove you. 

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