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Chuck

**Banned Kit Manufacturers on MSW - Pirated KITS Prohibited **

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Its sad...very sad for the industry.   In fact SOS just welcomed another Company who pirates so many designs to their ranks and I can only guess thay will soon become a sponsor.  They have just welcomed with much fanfare Unicorn Models....To recap,   Unicorn Models has pirated no less than 4 Harold Hahn designs 100%....pure tracing of parts and copying of plans.  In addition, they have also pirated TWO!!! 

 

I repeat TWO designs from Jeff Staudt that appeared on the Model Ship Builder forum as a free download.  If its available somewhere then they will steal it.  Model Ship Builder is a partner site of theirs yet I guess they are so desperate for sponsors and members these people were welcomed with Hoots and Hoorahs by their moderators and staff....Its a shameful display of unethical behavior.   One that should be pointed out. This forum is used as a vehicle to actively promote this stuff....willingly and with much fanfare!!!

image.png

 

On the other hand,  (And I think this will show ERIC that we are ONLY concerned with the practice of piracy....NOT the smearing of any group of people) we are constantly communicating with many Chinese manufacturers to try and make them understand why this practice is so hurtful. 

 

Based on our relationship building, a banned Chinese MFG has sent us a formal apology for pirating our Triton Cross Section and they have promised us that they will cease production and sale of this design.  It is a very RARE admission....and a huge accomplishment for the relationships we are trying to create.  This is a great first step....now if they will only stop MFG and selling the other pirated designs the offer we will say that steady and welcome progress is being made.  We fight the practice of piracy and nothing else.

 

Consider this!!!  Had we NOT taken the stance to publicly educate model builders about this stuff with such a strong campaign, it is doubtful that we would have received an apology.   It is doubtful that any of the progress we have made would have happened.  If on the other hand we did nothing and instead promoted the sale and theft of these designs,  just like the SOS forum,  none of this would have happened.  There will soon be at least two projects or kits made available by these Chinese MFGs that are perfectly fine to buy and build here on MSW.   We hope to have many more.

 

These are those designed by TRIDENT and soon to be rolled out here by Jack (HJX) who is developing a kit of a 74 gun british subject as I write this.   This is the kind of kit development we are trying to compell these manufacturers to pursue instead of copying western designs like Ancre and Harolds Hahn an yes even Model Ship World designs.

 

Chuck

 

 

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9 minutes ago, John Allen said:

Be creative and post something inflammatory, colorful, and besmirching their lineage and profane then I think they will remove you. 

Why stoop to their level?

 

Just make a concerned comment in one of the build logs of a pirated model..

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Sadly it is what it is and is thievery that takes profits from those legitimate companies, and will not go away. The only way to combat that is to not promote, buy and continue to expose. Sadly there is no legal remedy. Patents are not protected, politicians are of no help, on model pirating look what there doing to stealing of our  and all other countries technology. Hell they have implanted moles in our corporations whose sole purpose is theft of trade secrets.

 

Don't forget a person related to uno numero received (I hope this is correct) 1500 patents from the Chinese Government.

Off my pedestal🤬 

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3 minutes ago, Gregory said:

Why stoop to their level?

That's not stooping being cordial and asking politely accomplished nothing, so you can accept or besmirch whatever gives you that warm fuzzy feeling.

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28 minutes ago, Chuck said:

Based on our relationship building, a banned Chinese MFG has sent us a formal apology for pirating our Triton Cross Section and they have promised us that they will cease production and sale of this design. 

Well done Chuck, seriously a great moment to recount when the 'pep talk' is needed dealing with a pirate (or a member of the public trying to understand price differences).

A manufacturer admitting they had made an error and would not repeat the practice is a powerful tool in this argument.

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Thank You...

 

In addition...we are trying to use our established relationships with publishers and designers and introduce these Chinese MFGs to them so a true legitimate relationship can be formed.  One where it might be possible for one of them to get approval from say ANCRE through an agreement which would allow these kits to be made legally.   We are currently trying to do some match-making with this.....

 

There is a lot of diplomacy going on behind the scenes that you guys cant see!!!  But rest assured...THIS IS ONLY about the practice and NOT the people.  It takes time and it takes patience to to have these communications.  It is also not just my efforts,  its a group effort with Jim and Dirk doing some incredible work reaching out to all involved.  We are not just bashing the CHINESE or RUSSIANS here...we are actually trying with much effort to solve the problem as best we can.

 

Chuck

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54 minutes ago, Cathead said:

Don't know how many times I need to repeat that I'm not talking about James or Chuck, but apparently it needs repeating again if I'm getting the all-caps treatment.

I'm trying to understand what you are referring to, and who is " James " ?

 

I don't see any posts in " all caps "  quoting you or addressing anything specifically you have posted..

 

Are you responding publicly to private messages you have received?

Edited by Gregory

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James is presumably 'James H' who is a site administrator and almost the father of this site originally.

I also don't see anyone going full 'caps' so am a little surprised.

 

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Its OK folks....Lets keep our eyes on the prize here.   

 

If anyone is attacking anything other than the practice of Piracy I would ask that they refrain from doing so or even publicly posting about the politics and culture of these countries.  Lets keep it laser focused.    AND please understand that Eric is correct in pointing that out as some folks do get carried away.  We are working on it to the best of our abilities.   

 

This topic is for the sole purpose to point out what is pirated and what companies should be avoided.  Also, it provides a place to educate the truth behind sites like the Ships of Scale forum who promote and reward those who do pirate kits and designs from a whole lot of people....including many many of our sponsors.   By SOS blocking and failing to allow any discussion that this practice actually exists needs to be pointed out.  They are outright disingenuous about it. Otherwise new folks entering the hobby would never know about them and to no fault of their own might fall prey to them. 

 

This is what the discussion should be limited to...thanks. 

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2 hours ago, Chuck said:

And I think this will show ERIC that we are ONLY concerned with the practice of piracy....NOT the smearing of any group of people)

Was referring to the above. Chuck is correct that we should back down here and stay focused on the issue at hand. 

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As we have all read, use of the digital technologies that have allowed the development of organizations like Amazon and EBay are disruptive.  In my youth, ship model kits were bought directly from a few US manufactures or from established local hobby shops.  I also remember when our local Department Store stocked the “yellow box” Model Shipways kits.  This restricted distribution allowed some form of control.

 

With everything sold on line now, it’s the “Wild West”.   There was an article this week in the Wall Street Journal about the sale of fake, pirated, and sometimes dangerous merchandise sold through Amazon’s Marketplace where Amazon  acting as a broker takes little responsibility for what is sold.  This rapidly growing segment of their business has caused tremendous harm to a number of legitimate suppliers.

 

Living not too far from our Northern Border, the local press routinely reports on confiscation of pirated merchandise coming into the country, but these major shipments are relatively easy to inspect.  I suspect that it is next to impossible for our Postal Service to inspect even a small percentage of packages arriving from overseas and if they did, shipments would be held up for years.  Enforcement by the Federal Government is no longer a practical solution.

 

The onus is therefore on us to act responsively, to not buy pirated stuff.  The nice thing about model shipbuilding is that it takes months if not years to create a project.  While everyone appreciates a bargain, the increased cost for the real thing spread out over the life of the project is very low.

 

Regarding SOS’s policies, this is by no means the only idiotic thing on the web.

 

Roger Pellett

Edited by Roger Pellett

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4 hours ago, Chuck said:

...we are trying to use our established relationships with publishers and designers and introduce these Chinese MFGs to them so a true legitimate relationship can be formed.  One where it might be possible for one of them to get approval from say ANCRE through an agreement which would allow these kits to be made legally.   We are currently trying to do some match-making with this.....

 

This is something I was hoping for !

There is no excuse for producing a duplicate kit that been developed by someone else. Should not even be discussed, it is a blunt thievery and directly impacts original manufacturer financially. But there is a number of kits that are actually developed by Chinese companies from scratch, particularly the admiralty style models, which are unique and not available from anybody else. Lumber Yard timbering sets are not even close, and Ancre with SeaWatch  are not producing any kits. My understanding that such kits are created basis plans and monographs, pirated or perhaps even legally purchased, and the only thing that gets them into the pirate list is that royalties are not paid to the authors. I really hope progress can be made in this respect by Chuck and don't see why the Chianese MFG's would not agree to pay for the rights or percentage from each model sold to take care of this seemingly simple issue.

I say Chianese, since Russian MFG  have no such kits, they develop their plans and kits themselves or pirate the whole thing (I only know one) . There is nothing to negotiate there. 

Edited by mitbok

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And just in case anyone is unaware of this (hard to imagine how it might be possible, though), SoS is not by any stretch the only social media group that turns a blind eye to IP theft. Facebook is rife with such groups, as evidenced in the accompanying screen capture. And in case anyone is wondering, no, ZHL does not have a license to produce kits of Disney IP.

Capture.PNG.4ab8060191d5cc8035858730cd0e2985.PNG

The owner of the FB group shown above was in fact contacted by several of the group's members over his tacit support for IP theft. Not only did he blow those concerns off, he took one of SoS's admins on as an administrator of his group.

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On 11/10/2019 at 11:38 PM, mtaylor said:

All this raises a question:  If the Chinese end up driving all the kit and plans developers out of business, who will they steal from? Where will new models come from?

    The answer to that is simple and has been evident in other industries.  There will no longer be any new kits and once the small companies have been run out of business, the pirates will just raise their prices on the old ones.  Then everybody loses except the pirates! 

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Ok, I posted this in two separate sub forums on SoS, we’ll see if this gets any action:

 

Did you guys get my request to delete my membership? After the lack of your accountability and subsequent cover up attempt concerning G.Delacroix’s latest complaint about copyright infringements and another Chinese rip off of his design I have concluded that you (SoS) are culpable in the blatant support of said infringement and piracy. 
It is obvious that you either don’t care about or are in cahoots with the detestable practitioners that are ripping off the valuable resources of legitimate designers in this hobby.
 It was my understanding that you (SoS) did not support such practices and left it up to the modeler to decide on the legitimacy of a product, but your recent refusal to acknowledge or investigate the legitimate claims of G.Delacroix and even removing the evidence of that claim speaks volumes about the intent and direction of this forum.
I do not wish to be associated with or be in support of the illegal and morally reprehensible practices that are prevalent on this forum.

Please remove my membership forthwith 
Lou Griffin   (ASAT)

 

 

I’ll let you know if that gets a response.....

Lou

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Dude...they will deffinately delete your account now because that also means that those posts go away!!!  But good on you for doing it.

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7 minutes ago, ASAT said:

Ok, I posted this in two separate sub forums on SoS, we’ll see if this gets any action:

 

Did you guys get my request to delete my membership? After the lack of your accountability and subsequent cover up attempt concerning G.Delacroix’s latest complaint about copyright infringements and another Chinese rip off of his design I have concluded that you (SoS) are culpable in the blatant support of said infringement and piracy. 
It is obvious that you either don’t care about or are in cahoots with the detestable practitioners that are ripping off the valuable resources of legitimate designers in this hobby.
 It was my understanding that you (SoS) did not support such practices and left it up to the modeler to decide on the legitimacy of a product, but your recent refusal to acknowledge or investigate the legitimate claims of G.Delacroix and even removing the evidence of that claim speaks volumes about the intent and direction of this forum.
I do not wish to be associated with or be in support of the illegal and morally reprehensible practices that are prevalent on this forum.

Please remove my membership forthwith 
Lou Griffin   (ASAT)

 

 

I’ll let you know if that gets a response.....

Lou

As I can't see those posts, I presume they removed them immediately, although you're still showing as a member.

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Actually it looks like SOS deleted your posts but not your account.  Next time take a screen shot because they will deny that it ever existed.  I did see it however......they just deleted it that fast. LOL.....:blink:  Looks like you are there to stay.....

 

 

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Looks like I have been banned for “undermining the forum activity” Geez, what a rebel.... funny (not) that ripping off legitimate designers doesn’t undermine their forum but speaking out about it does.....   

It’s ok with me, far as I’m concerned it’s “Mission Accomplished”. I hope they remove my forum name, I don’t want to be associated with them at all....

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1 hour ago, JerseyCity Frankie said:

Anyone know which model ship related Facebook pages are run by ships of scale?

As far as I know, they only have the one SoS page, but they have been industriously cross-posting across all of Facebook Land.

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Hi everyone!

First of all, many thanks to Mr. chuck for his actions (against piracy). I personally agree with and support his ideas.

Maybe I didn't look every post very carefully,so I can only answer some of questions because of where I am. 

 

Yes, there are infringing and pirated products and behaviors in China at present. But it is a fact that Chinese officials do not support piracy. On the contrary, in recent decades, it is true that in terms of legislation and protection of intellectual property, legislation has been gradually improved and management strengthened. For one obvious example, a friend of mine who run a retail store was sued by the court for selling pillows with cartoon pattern of "big mouth monkey", and he was fined 7500 yuan, about 1080 US dollars, while the value of pillows he sold was only 4 US dollars. He didn't even know that "big mouth monkey" was a trademark of West or anything, but if it was more than ten years ago, he will not be prosecuted at all. Because I have been running a retail store for more than ten years, and in the past five years, the government's management of pirated products may be no less than that of Europe and the United States, because if you sell counterfeit or pirated products, customers can directly demand 10 times of claims for goods, and often more than that, because even if you sell only one yuan of counterfeit goods, the claim can start at 2000 yuan. The official punishment is more severe, starting from 5000-20000. So if you have friends around you who have been to China, you can ask him if there are any pirated or fake goods in the regular stores in China? Fake and pirated products in China are often hidden in informal stores or online sales channels.

But why are there so many pirated kits? At least these products are pirated kits according to West standard.

One reason is that there are so many companies in China that produce kits,  maybe the number of Chinese companies alone can be the same as the number of Companies in Europe as a whole. At one time, there are more than a dozen companies making "pirated kits", which is really a very bad negative impact. Secondly, there are some differences between China and the West on the legal definition of tort. I'm not a lawyer or a judge. I'm not sure which is pirated or not. But those companies that directly copy West are obviously Pirated Kits. Some of them refer to the drawings or products of west company, plus some of their own designs. If they do not directly use the drawings or designs of west company, they are not infringement in Chinese law, which may be different from west. No prosecution is another reason why pirated products have not been eradicated. Because of the cost, it is impossible for West's companies to sue pirates in China. But if you have evidence, once you sue these pirated companies, your odds may be as high as 99%. As the ship model kit is ”too cold“ as a product, I expect that on more than 10,000 people in China will know about this product. It is estimated that there will not be more than 100 people who are very skilled and can accurately define whether the infringement is committed. For example, when I was making ship models in my shop, in the whole eight years, there was only one person who told me that he knew ship models, and almost all people thought that I was making "assembled plastic toys". Therefore, Chinese officials will not take the initiative to punish pirated companies, and they hardly know the product, let alone whether it is infringing or not. It's just like west won't take the initiative to help China catch the embezzlers who escape from China. 

 

Why does China have pirated kit, but west has little even no?

China began to understand kits through the popularity of the Internet, because it is very difficult to buy West kits in the Chinese market, even now, but China has a large market, and many of them are young people, they are very immature compared with adults or the elderly, many people will play and buy kits in large quantities, whether or not they can finish the production in the end, secondly, many famous boats almost no available kits to be developed, especially those from Ancre, France, so it gave birth to "pirated kits". To be precise, these kits were designed by themselves, but they did not pay the licensing fee. It is said that Ancre refused to authorize Chinese companies to develop these kits .Although this cannot be the reason for these companies to develop "pirated kits", it may be the market rule that "there will be manufacturers if there is a market". If there is demand, there will be a manufacturer. No one will sue him for the cost, but in Europe, it is estimated that you produce pirated kits today, and the police will come to you tomorrow, so ...

 

 

What can I do?

I can't do anything to prevent Chinese people from making "pirated kits". I'm sorry that there are so many people in China who are making "pirated" or "infringing" kits. But don't be pessimistic. In the process of intellectual property development in China, one of the most interesting and sensational events is the case of a Chinese car company imitating British Land Rover. At that time, a Chinese automobile company "counterfeited" the appearance of Land Rover. Everyone knew that they had counterfeited Land Rover, but that company successfully drilled the loophole of the law and won the lawsuit. But it turned out to be a surprise. It is said that the counterfeit car sold for only a few digits in 2018. So the mainstream of China doesn't agree with piracy. Instead, all (government agencies, media...) are promoting originality and technological progress. In my region, there are  $3000-6000 awards for applying for invention patents in the European Union and the United States. 

This award is nearly 6000 US dollars in Shenzhen, the hometown of Huawei in China,I don't know if you've heard of this, but it's true. Because maybe I will apply for a patent from EU for my POF kit to protect a technology. It costs nearly 8500 US dollars to apply for EU patent in China and about 5600 US dollars to apply for USA patent. 

But I don't know if my technology, which can solve the problem of POF kit, can be regarded as a patent requirement...

 

Maybe the only thing I can do is to develop kits legally and original by myself-that is to use commercially authorized design and processing software, obtain development authorization or cooperate with the author of West to develop kits . This is another way, maybe it can affect some Chinese companies (take the way of original or legal development)I am very grateful to Mr. chuck. I almost slipped to the other side... Mr. chuck gave me the opportunity. I studied Mr. David's swan class book and designed kit of Atlanta with reference to his book. When I almost finished her hull and was about to start entity verification, Mr. chuck and my German friends advised me not to make this project, even if I started designing from NMM drawings and didn't copy Mr. David's drawings, it would be considered as plagiarism. So I terminated the project. Now the new design of 3rd rate is based on the original draught of NMM, and my UK friend (the cooperative company) has obtained the written commercial development license from NMM. The original development of POF kit uses many technologies that others have not yet used to solve the problem of POF Kit - it seems that many companies have not yet been able to break through the technical problem of POF,or they don't want to make POF for other reasons.After all, kit making is not a high-tech product. If it can be developed successfully, I hope to bring new products to folks. My wish is that ordinary players can make high-quality full frame ship models-And it doesn't need very high skill...that's my idea... I will probably invite artists to carve figurehead, and then use CNC to copy these sculptures. . .

 

Jack

Edited by hjx

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Being very new to this hobby I was excited to find MSW and am astounded at the help I've received on here and privately by members who freely give their time to support and guide me in my endeavours.

 Alas, I'm now also disappointed to learn sos , which I joined thinking it to be just another modeller forum to learn from, actually promotes pirated kits. I intend to remove myself from their sight straight away.

i remember reading earlier to steer clear of pirated kits and the ethical reasons why I should. If I'd have read further does it also mention which forums support and ignore such practices. People can choose for themselves how they morally and ethically go through life , but had I been aware of the sos practices I certainly wouldn't have joined.

It would be great to make each new member aware of sites that promote such poor practices.

 

cheers

peter

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Thanks peter and we do try to educate as much as possible.  If in doubt about a kit or site anyone may contact me or other staff here and we can give you all the facts about them before you buy or sign up.

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I tried to remove myself but funnily a lot of buttons don't work when u try that. 

Next idea was to just delete my log, strange again with the back button rarely doing its job ,yet any text left now looks like it's written by an illiterate caveman that makes no sense what so ever. I did manage to delete all photos which was good before the YOU HAVE BEEN BANNED sign came up.

Heres the hilarious part, the ban only last 24 hours. Tomorrow I'll leave a lovely comment to those knob jockeys and kick em straight in their plum hammock.

cheers

peter

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