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Chuck

**Banned Kit Manufacturers on MSW - Pirated KITS Prohibited **

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57 minutes ago, Dubz said:

so this does drive home my point and support the idea pirate hunters become pirates

This unnamed individual has gone to extraordinary lengths to try and build what is known as a tu quoque argument (from the Latin for "you also"), i.e. folks on this forum who have taken a strong stance against IP theft (which apparently earns one the "pirate hunter" moniker) must surely be guilty of the same kind of offense as that which is attributed to the "pirates". The strategy is ludicrous on its face. On the one hand we have well-documented instances of certain manufacturers violating US and EU copyright law coupled with their defenders in the ship modeling community who thus far have demonstrated a sometimes comical inability to grasp both what is protected by copyright and how it is protected; on the other hand we have well-known and respected companies and designers with long track records of producing designs based on plans held by the NMM and elsewhere, and it is spuriously implied that these designers have either deliberately or in ignorance failed to negotiate proper licensing agreements with the original copyright holders in order to produce new kits, all in the complete absence of any evidence that this might be so.  

 

So no, the point has not been driven home, nor even made in the first place, neither is the idea supported -- except in the minds of certain unnamed individuals.

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I have a suggestion for the forum.  Along with a list of banned manufactures how about a list of Chinese, Russian, etc. companies that produce legitimate kits?  I have seen mentions of such but have no idea (other than Master Korabel in Russia) who these are.

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26 minutes ago, VTHokiEE said:

That list may need a slight update, I noticed Vanguard was not on the list

True. We update it from time to time. Like just now, for instance. 😉

 

EDIT: Just gave that page a thorough going over to fix and/or add links. Everything should work now!

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On 11/10/2019 at 8:06 PM, G. Delacroix said:

In addition to problems of creations, I can doubt of my next projects thinking to find them in kit (or hacking plans) even before the cost is amortized because, to propose this work to modelers, we must to invest in big costs,  printing monographs "à la française" is very expensive.

 

''MasterKorabel'' manufacturer from Russian are on your side!
It is unacceptable that your work be used without permission.
I realized that your comment was deleted on that forum? 

It is unacceptable!
NO modeler in the World has the right to ignore you!

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I am pleased to announce that the ban on all CAF kits and products has now been lifted.   I have been working with Tom at CAF along with Ancre to bring some resolution to the issues that facilitated the ban.   

 

Please see this topic and welcome CAF and Tom to MSW.....Also feel free to start a build log of any CAF kit you might be interested in.   

 

This should also prove to any naysayers out there that that MSW and myself only have an issue with the practice of piracy and the infringement of intellectual property rights.  Its the act we are against and NOT the people.   We have been working on this together for several weeks now.

 

 

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I would also add this notation.   I will always work with any Chinese company.... or any other for that matter who has willingly pirated kits and now wish to rectify the situation.   So if Snail, ZHL and even Unicorn are reading this topic.  Just reach out to me and I will do everything I can to help you contact the parties victimized so you can make things right.   

 

This is the important thing to do for the hobby.  Just contact me through my website or through the NRG office.  My email is also below.

 

Chuck

cpassaro123@gmail.com

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1 hour ago, Chuck said:

I am pleased to announce that the ban on all CAF kits and products has now been lifted.   I have been working with Tom at CAF along with Ancre to bring some resolution to the issues that facilitated the ban.   

 

Please see this topic and welcome CAF and Tom to MSW.....Also feel free to start a build log of any CAF kit you might be interested in.   

 

This should also prove to any naysayers out there that that MSW and myself only have an issue with the practice of piracy and the infringement of intellectual property rights.  Its the act we are against and NOT the people.   We have been working on this together for several weeks now.

 

 

 

Fantastic!!!

 

A massive welcome to @cafmodel. Looking forward very much to seeing your kits built here on MSW.

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It’s great to read that efforts to explain issues, and educate people about implications and impacts of certain behaviours have paid off. It also shows that, when informed politely and quietly, a lot of people will react positively and in good faith. So much more positive than pretending issues don’t exist, or escalading fights on social media.

Heartfelt congratulations to Chuck for his efforts, and to Tom for changing his business practices, and Mr Berti for entering into these negotiations.

As a side note, I went to visit CAFmodel’s website after this post. I could see that the pages linking to the Ancre-based models are inactive atm. I also saw an aircraft page, with a 1/32 SG-38 wooden model : most likely I will order this one sooner rather than later, and would never had considered such an order before. I hope that Tom will conclude from my little experience that behaving fairly can bring additional business ;) !

Hubert

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Thank You.....yes he took them off his site until the new arrangement was finalized.  I am sure they will be back up there in a little while.   I had asked him to remove those before entering into discussions with Ancre as a sign of good faith.   Which he did.

 

Chuck

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Welcome to CAF on the forum!

 

A huge shout out to Chuck for all the work he did to help realize CAF’s dream of becoming a legitimate producer.  

 

I have met the owner of CAF, Tom, and he is a very young and talented designer.  I saw his work in Shanghai and having his work becoming properly licenced is a great thing for our hobby.

 

Chuck has been instrumental — thank you!

 

cheers,

 

Kerry

 

Kerry Jang

Vancouver, Canada

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I am new to the

forum, found this very helpful. I am looking for a cross section model , almost thought of the black pearl but I will keep looking for something from legitimate mfgr.if anyone has a suggestion I would be grateful

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4 hours ago, wayne mcmullin said:

I am new to the

forum, found this very helpful. I am looking for a cross section model , almost thought of the black pearl but I will keep looking for something from legitimate mfgr.if anyone has a suggestion I would be grateful

Here's a search I ran for you showing all the kit cross-section builds...  https://modelshipworld.com/search/?q=cross section&type=forums_topic&nodes=10&search_in=titles

 

I hope this helps as there 42  build logs for various ships.   Be advised though that Artesania Latina is out of business but there might be some available from various places.

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22 minutes ago, wayne mcmullin said:

thank you for this link found very helpful, will probably get the Constitution cross section. Have you ever seen a lengthwise cross section model- one side open with interior other planked.

Stock is probably limited because they are out of business but you may want to take a look at the Bounty by Artesania Latina, 1:48 one side of the ship is left unplanked. 

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6 minutes ago, VTHokiEE said:

Stock is probably limited because they are out of business but you may want to take a look at the Bounty by Artesania Latina, 1:48 one side of the ship is left unplanked. 

Check our sponsor Ages of Sail they might have it.

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I just wanted to repost some evidence that can not be disputed that ZHL does in fact pirate kits verbatim.....100% copies of other MFGs products.   ZHL does not merely use the information as reference or for guidance as is currently being misrepresented to new model builders on the SOS site.....They didnt use the original drafts and then coincidentally managed to reproduce these plans and images exactly by some supernatural ability.  This should be obvious because these are fictional ships and no original drafts actually exist.  There seems to be some interest from these new builders because of the obvious price difference between the pirated ZHL versions and the legit original products.   They are asking which is the better kit....what the differences are between them, etc...these are perfectly fine questions to ask.    The honest answer however is not to tell them that the ZHL is 100% better by misleading them that they are actually different kit designs....with different plans.

 

They are identical....no difference at all in design or in the plans....they were stolen.

 

If they really wanted to educate their members they would at least be honest and acknowledge what ZHL has done so these new model builders can make an educated decision.  I do believe however that ZHL just changed the scale and size.  But that fact is even open for an honest debate.

 

So with the hope that these new members will at least check in here as many seem to be dual members of both sites......here you can see that ZHL even copies the plans of these other manufacturers and then simply replacing the name Mantua......or whatever with the ZHL name.  They literally just blatantly copy the plans and parts.  These kits are identical in every respect except for the fact that ZHL did not do any R & D or actual design work.....they just scanned and copied everything .....and now they simply profit off of their obvious pirating.  I really do wish someone would ask the admins and staff over on the SOS site to explain or at least acknowledge this as a fact.   If they want to support and allow this pirating that is their own prerogative.  But at least be honest about it........so unsuspecting model builders can make an informed decision.

 

soliel royal.jpg

 

pirated.jpg

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56 minutes ago, Chuck said:

I just wanted to repost some evidence that can not be disputed that ZHL does in fact pirate kits verbatim.....100% copies of other MFGs products.   ZHL does not merely use the information as reference or for guidance as is currently being misrepresented to new model builders on the SOS site.....They didnt use the original drafts and then coincidentally managed to reproduce these plans and images exactly by some supernatural ability.  This should be obvious because these are fictional ships and no original drafts actually exist.  There seems to be some interest from these new builders because of the obvious price difference between the pirated ZHL versions and the legit original products.   They are asking which is the better kit....what the differences are between them, etc...these are perfectly fine questions to ask.    The honest answer however is not to tell them that the ZHL is 100% better by misleading them that they are actually different kit designs....with different plans.

 

They are identical....no difference at all in design or in the plans....they were stolen.

 

If they really wanted to educate their members they would at least be honest and acknowledge what ZHL has done so these new model builders can make an educated decision.  I do believe however that ZHL just changed the scale and size.  But that fact is even open for an honest debate.

 

So with the hope that these new members will at least check in here as many seem to be dual members of both sites......here you can see that ZHL even copies the plans of these other manufacturers and then simply replacing the name Mantua......or whatever with the ZHL name.  They literally just blatantly copy the plans and parts.  These kits are identical in every respect except for the fact that ZHL did not do any R & D or actual design work.....they just scanned and copied everything .....and now they simply profit off of their obvious pirating.  I really do wish someone would ask the admins and staff over on the SOS site to explain or at least acknowledge this as a fact.   If they want to support and allow this pirating that is their own prerogative.  But at least be honest about it........so unsuspecting model builders can make an informed decision.

 

 

 

Shared to my Facebook page.

 

 

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Chuck,

 

I joined over there recently just to see what their views were and to see if I could stir up some controversy.  When ever I raise a controversial issue on this subject I get an immediate response from the administrators and then lots of "bravo's" from members.  The absence of logic beggars belief.  For example:

 

1. There is a lot of talk about "freedom" (to build what you want).  "We fought wars tor such freedom",

. But when I pointed out that we are not free to commit murder or rape or to steal or commit domestic violence there was a stony silence.

 

2.  There is an individual over there who has done quite an an authoritative series of posts on Copyright and Licensing including quotations , letters and costs from  NMM.  He gets praised for explaining all this but nobody seems to make the connection between these issues and piracy.

 

3.  There is a thread on "the future of the hobby" but nobody except me has pointed out that Piracy stifles innovation and that this could have a major effect on the "future of the hobby"

 

I guess I will get banned in the end.

 

John

Edited by bartley

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Hi Chuck,

 

There is a clear case that ZHL have infringed the copyright of Mantua by copying their design of the San Felipe kit verbatim.  As copyright owners, Mantua will be able to successfully sue ZHL, since China respects and supports international legislation on patents and copyright.  I encourage Mantua to commence a legal action.  Do you know the people at Mantua, and if so, what is their decision about this? 

 

They could also commence a class action in which other pirated kit manufacturers join them in suing ZHL.  Have such discussions between legitimate kit manufacturers taken place? I encourage such discussions since costs of legal action would be shared.

 

If a legal action is commenced against ZHL then it would also be possible for the copyright owners to take legal action against agencies such as that forum that advocates model piracy and EBAY for promoting and aiding ZHL to profit from their copyright theft.  A cease and desist notice can be issued by a solicitor once legal action against ZHL has commenced.

 

Thanks,

Rob

 

 

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John...there are several posts asking about zhl and even these Two kits in particular.  Please feel free to help educate those new folks inquiring about them by pointing out these details and posting those images of the copied plans. At least they will get some info to help them make an informed decision.  The staff there has falsely claimed that they are against piracy and want to educate their members.   They even stated as such in that long, rambling topic their staff wrote on copyright which is illogical and riddled with errors.  Its like reading a report on how cigarettes are healthy for you which was published by the tobacco industry.  So feel free to help them out on the education front.

 

https://shipsofscale.com/sosforums/threads/zhl-model-kits.4284/#post-85380

 

And for the record, I have never claimed that anyone pirated my Winnie plans.   Even the pirates are smart enough to wait until I have posted all of them.  I am sure it wouldnt be too long after I complete the project though.   

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The problem with suing is that the one who is being sued can just declare bankruptcy and walk away, leaving the legal bills on the other side to pay their own, as the lawyers will get their money somehow. You need very deep pockets and lots of spare time to gather the required disclosure evidence, and in the end, you probably will not be any better off, more likely tens of thousands worse off. The offending company (who is suing or falsely suing) will fold and then reappear under a new name, or perhaps as a new family member as director.

 

At least, that is what I have been told, but this is the UK.  I would rather keep my money for developments, it's a safer gamble...

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Thats why I urge more education.  And i urge anyone willing to help educate.  I know a few people that post here how they hate piracy and would never support It.  In this very topic actually.  Then six months later i read on SOS that they bought a zhl kit or other pirated kit.  Its mind boggling and that is what upsets me dearly.  Its all lip service for many.   They chase the lower price.   I cant get upset over new folks in the hobby buying them because they have no idea what they are buying.  

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18 hours ago, Chuck said:

I just wanted to repost some evidence that can not be disputed that ZHL does in fact pirate kits verbatim.....100% copies of other MFGs products.   ZHL does not merely use the information as reference or for guidance as is currently being misrepresented to new model builders on the that forum that advocates model piracy site.....They didnt use the original drafts and then coincidentally managed to reproduce these plans and images exactly by some supernatural ability.  This should be obvious because these are fictional ships and no original drafts actually exist.  There seems to be some interest from these new builders because of the obvious price difference between the pirated ZHL versions and the legit original products.   They are asking which is the better kit....what the differences are between them, etc...these are perfectly fine questions to ask.    The honest answer however is not to tell them that the ZHL is 100% better by misleading them that they are actually different kit designs....with different plans.

 

They are identical....no difference at all in design or in the plans....they were stolen.

 

If they really wanted to educate their members they would at least be honest and acknowledge what ZHL has done so these new model builders can make an educated decision.  I do believe however that ZHL just changed the scale and size.  But that fact is even open for an honest debate.

 

So with the hope that these new members will at least check in here as many seem to be dual members of both sites......here you can see that ZHL even copies the plans of these other manufacturers and then simply replacing the name Mantua......or whatever with the ZHL name.  They literally just blatantly copy the plans and parts.  These kits are identical in every respect except for the fact that ZHL did not do any R & D or actual design work.....they just scanned and copied everything .....and now they simply profit off of their obvious pirating.  I really do wish someone would ask the admins and staff over on the that forum that advocates model piracy site to explain or at least acknowledge this as a fact.   If they want to support and allow this pirating that is their own prerogative.  But at least be honest about it........so unsuspecting model builders can make an informed decision.

 

soliel royal.jpg

 

pirated.jpg

I'm a member of both sites.  I copied your text and posted it on that forum that advocates model piracy.  They have a forum for copyright infringement, I posted it there.  Coming from the software industry I know pirating is a way of life for Chinese business, for some reason they seem to think there is nothing wrong with doing it.

 

I think it is very wrong to say members of that forum that advocates model piracy "endorse" or "embrace" stolen intellectual property, more likely some member (certainly not all) simply don't know.

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