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Chuck

**Banned Kit Manufacturers on MSW - Pirated KITS Prohibited **

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Ran across a model from a company called "CAF".  Is this one of the banned manufactures?

Yep.

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Many of you may be aware that there are some kit manufacturers that have been banned from Model Ship World.  These are mostly Chinese companies that rip off and duplicate other kits from reputable manufacturers.  We dont want to support such thievery. I have personally been ripped off by ZHL.   They stole my Confederacy plans and actually include it in their kit.  Its an awful kit to boot!!

 

Please make note that no build logs from these MFGs will be allowed on Model Ship World

 

And we have allowed some other kits which were original, but made by these same crooked companies to remain....BUT NOT ANY LONGER. I know of two others but after the great crash of 2013 they are now gone.  ..from this point forward.....NO KITS BY THESE MFGs WILL EVER BE ALLOWED ON THIS SITE. Here is the list of crooked ship model MFGs banned from MSW

ZHL 

Snail Model

XinFeng 
JD Model 
LHQK 
Shi Cheng

Huasong

woodenkit (Russian MFG)
YengFan 
Unicorn Model 
YQ 

CN

CF

shi hai

Moxing

WN

DU jiao shou

SC

DUJIAOSHOU

 

These include all of those kits everyone rationalizes in their head are not stolen but actually are....like the zhl Royal Caroline and Ingerlandman kits.   As well as many others.   The plans and building patterns for every aspect of those two projects were stolen from the same master builder in Russia.  He made the mistake of posting them online for all to see just like so many do here on MSW in their build logs and drafting forums (ie Triton).  And they were almost immediately stolen.  So you may not find a manufacturer who made the kit but I can find the original sources pretty quickly.  In fact....please PM me BEFORE you buy one and I will let you know who it was stolen from.  I have yet to find a wooden kit by a Chinese MFG that wasnt stolen.  

 

 

Our forum RULES to this regard.

 

Kits/Plans/Parts:  If a company/individual is known to have pirated either plans or designs from another source in order to profit from the original author's work...stolen really.  Use of those plans, kits or parts is prohibited on MSW.  Promotion of those pirated plans and or kits and or companies that sell them is also prohibited, whether on MSW or anywhere else.  If you are building one of these pirated kits on another site, you will still lose your privileges here on MSW. No links may be posted to sites that sell or promote pirated products unless approved by admin.

 

Thank You very much in advance.......repeat offenders will be warned....or worse.  If you are found to be building, buying, praising any pirated kit/company from the list of banned MFG's, or promoting the advancement of listed companies and individuals you will be promptly banned from MSW.  Don't even bring it up!  If you have a different opinion about this, it is not one that we share and you can no longer be an MSW member.

 

Should anyone disagree with this please send me a PM.  No public scrutiny or anything.....but we will simply agree to part ways.  I can remove you from this forum and all will be forgotten in short order.  But these are the rules and viewpoint of MSW/NRG and we have every right to not allow anyone on the site who doesn't share our values and ethics towards pirating...you are more than welcome to do it elsewhere.   So make a choice....please respect the rules or you will lose your privileges to continue on as a member of MSW.   

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I'd say that there is another issue here.  I contacted Max at ZHL about this, and he replied that he is acting lawfully under Chinese law.  That speaks volumes about doing business with many Chinese companies; they don't share the same ethical values as we.  That is unfortunate, especially since designers such as Chuck are getting ripped off.  So, I will never purchase one of these pirated kits.  It is a matter of living ethically.

 

Bill Morrison

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Thank You Bill.   Everyone who isnt a a thief thanks you.  I really thank you especially.  Unfortunately there is another forum (SOS) that is full of horrible, unethical individuals and they are looking the other way to save a buck and promote this behavior. A horrible group of bottom feeders actually.  :default_wallbash:  Its pretty shameful.

 

I just read on that dispicable forum that its OK for the Chinese to copy plans (say from Ancre) and make a kit because it takes time to trace it......and if they spend time then it makes it OK.  Especially if they change the scale.   And they rationalize it in this way to save a few pennies.  Its pretty twisted. But at least now they admit the plans were copied from Ancre and elsewhere.

 

Its quite a collection of bottom feeders and ship model company failures that have convened over there.  They are grasping at straws. 

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I must agree with Chuck that the SOS forum is full of ripped off kits and when I joined I flagged up the kits that where blatant copy's and got thrown off not a argument or a good discussion as to why this is a good idea to rip off designers and model companies just to make a fast buck. I would never go back to that site ever again 

 

Martyn

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Chuck,

 

I admire your skills and talent in designing and building top quality kits for us to enjoy.  You have done a wonderful service for us.  It sickens me to see your products (like the Confederacy) cheapened and ripped off. You deserve better, and you have my support.  I will start looking for these kits on eBay and commenting on them directly on the auction site.

 

Bill

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and to think that when the site first started,  I took on moderation duties there :(   there were the occasional ripples,  but it was a quiet site.  over time though,  I got too busy with other things I was doing,  and didn't visit the site as often as I should have.   when I finally got back into visiting the site on a fairly regular basis,  I failed to see what was going on.......for that Chuck.....I am sorry.   that's when I heard what happened to you over there.....that just fried my eggs!   I was directed to the thread in question and I had a look.  unfortunately,   your side of the argument was deleted,  but I read between the lines very well...I knew damn well,  who they were talking about.   I wrote "D" my letter of resignation and my reason for doing so,  and as a last thing to do,  I banned B.T.E. from the site.  I felt that what they did to you was wrong,  and that B.T.E. should have been reprimanded for starting the incident in the first place.  "D" and I exchanged two E-mails .....I told him that his decision to allow this sort of behavior,  is going to ruin the site's reputation.  he refused to do something about it,  so I bid farewell and haven't been back since.   this is probably PM fodder Chuck......but in light of the recent comments here,  I though you might get a small chuckle....even though the subject of all this is not funny.   I'm in your corner Chuck....actually,  it felt good sticking up for you ;) 

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Thanks Popeye...Yes I do think that the SOS forum is just desperate for eyeballs now.  That has been a sinking ship for some time now.  And by embracing the pirates and the morons who buy those kits,  I guess they felt they could get a modest bump in membership.  They have two failed ship model business owners over there now and it smacks of desperation.  Its pretty sad to watch except they are really nasty people who are obsessed.  They havent stopped bashing MSW, the NRg or me for months now.

 

I appreciate the support guys.  And so do all of the legit kit makers and authors.

 

Chuck

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Believe me, I learned my lesson with ZHL but now that I have Model Expo's kit for the Syren, Model expo could learn a lesson from ZHL ( as well as from Constructo, et al). Model Expo's kit is sub standard compared to ZHL and Constructo except for the instructions, which were written by you, Chuck and extremely detailed. Most of the material provided from Model Expo is poor.

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Maybe this is a question we are not allowed to ask on this forum, but I will ask it and stand corrected if it's too off topic.

How the hell does any country of the free world do business of any kind with another country who refuses to recognize laws condemning the theft of property from the rightful owner? 

Riddle me that, Batman.

With such blatant disregard for basic human rights, I just do not understand why we do business with them at all.

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On 2/24/2017 at 3:43 PM, jbshan said:

Another company decides this would make a wonderful addition to their line of model ship kits.  They buy one kit, do all the copying of plans and set up their manufacturing machinery (or contract it out), finally being able to offer 'the same kit' for a third of what the original company can offer, their development cost being about $1,000.

The original company sells only a quarter of the number of kits needed to break even, since 75% of that 100 customers has bought a pirated kit on ebay or amazon  In Heaven's name, why would that original reputable company, which did everything right, continue to lose 75% on every kit they produce?  Well, they can't, and if the trend continues they'll soon go out of business and we'll have nothing left except to scratch build, and most on here don't seem to feel they are up to that challenge.  I guess we'll have to switch over to railroads or just go fishing.

Very good point there. Unfortunately this an issue present in all industries. Name any of it and you will see there is the original and all the other companies just following the original idea. But every business has to adapt all the time. You can't just sit relaxed that you did what you had to do in researching and designing. Other companies copied your plans? (It's not really stealing if you didn't patented  your work, I'm not sure it applies here). Fine, put better and finer materials in your kit so you can always be the "Original". Create better instructions, color pics in them, and so on.

 

I am a programmer and part time in the woodworking business. Trust me, in both these areas the same thing happens. It's just the idea generating the product that's stolen, not necessarily the manufacturing process itself (The term "stolen" is usually used by the original designer, the others are just "inspired" :) ). You always have to improve it so you can be the #1 reference in the industry. My English is not good enough, but I think you understand my idea.

 

My point actually is that you always have to improve yourself. It doesn't matter that other entities use your idea (can you solve it with legal means? Fine, otherwise get back to work). Do it better, after all you have the advantage of thinking it through in the first place, don't you?

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the admiral asked me this one day.......how can different model manufacturers make a kit of the same boat?.   mostly,  it boils down to the very construction of the model......how the hull is created,  the fittings,  even the art work.   some merely change a couple of aspects and call it good.  this has gone on since the first models came out......the only medium that staved it off the best,  was the model train industry.  it remained mostly scratch until scale classification was developed.   plastic model manufacturers fought back against it first by embossing their logos on inconspicuous areas of the model parts.   other mediums have a harder time....wood ship/plane kit manufacturers have it much harder,  having no way to do this.   it's already been proven that merely putting the copyright on the instructions won't stop these pirates from copying them and developing kits.  one way I though of would be to market the kit without the instructions.......in the box is the instructions to visit the manufacturer's site and download them using a specific code included with the boxed instructions.   as it is today though,  you can go to most ship kit manufacturers and down load them for free....kinda blows the idea out of the water.   Billing Boats does it,  but there are others that are not so easy.  I recently received two hulls from a friend,  that he bought from E-Bay.   he wasn't sure what ship they were to be,  but I quickly found out they are the A.L Marina II.   I wanted to get the instructions for them.......one is a waste,  but the other one is more intact,  and could become the model in question.  I contacted A.L. in order to get a copy of the instructions.........it was like pulling teeth!   not wanting to go through all that malarky,  I knew of a person on S.O.S. who is building the Marina II,  and asked him if he could copy the instructions for me.   sadly,  with all that happened with S.O.S.,  I won't be receiving the instructions......I will never go back there.   could this be A.L.'s method of copyright control?   it very well could be.   you get a set of instructions in the kit itself.....for instance,  it's a Billing's kit,  but as soon as you bring it home,  it becomes your kit....the intellectual property is still Billing's though.  it is unlawful to copy it and distribute it as your own...worse to send it off to a known pirate company.  sometimes I wonder if my cloning hulls from the parts panels would be considered piracy.   I have no intention to sell them,  nor do I follow the measurements written in the texts......the hull parts are the only parts I use.   so much for my rambling......I gotta take Gibbs out

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How the hell does any country of the free world do business of any kind with another country who refuses to recognize laws condemning the theft of property from the rightful owner? 

That's easy.

  1. If you're in debt up to your neck to a certain country, cutting them off will destroy your economy.
  2. If most of your citizenry is obsessed with (or dependent on) accessing the lowest possible prices rather than achieving value, they'll revolt if you cut off business from such a country, despite empty "buy local" rhetoric.

It's capitalism. Whatever people say, they're addicted to the low prices that come with buying products from such a country. You fix it at home by changing consumer behavior, not by trying to force people to do something they don't want to do (again, empty rhetoric notwithstanding).

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I received an answer from Max to a question I posed about whether or not his model of the San Felipe had been pirated from the Panart kit.  His response was that the plans and parts were, " . . . designed by a model company."  Z.H.L. is epitomizing the worst characteristics of capitalism; thievery and unbridled greed.  Capitalism might not be bad, just certain aspects of that system.

 

Bill

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Bob:

Plastic might not be as popular as we would like here on MSW but nobody certainly has any objections to the media.  The NRG's Nautical Research Journal has featured plastic models on our covers as well as inside the magazine.  3 covers in the last year and a half - not bad 3 of 8.  This would not have happened just a few years ago.  Plastic is being accepted and encouraged.  The majority are wood oriented but we see more plastic guys all the time.  Hang in and give it time.

 

I don't think you have given MSW an adequate chance to judge the acceptance of plastic models - your PT boat posts received a lot of favorable comments.  That said, I don't think the other forum you mentioned is all that different regarding the numbers and interests of plastic vs wood but time will tell there too.  There are some great plastic oriented forums - Model Warships and Steel Navy to name two.

 

Just to show you there isn't a prejudice against plastic the NRG is actually a chapter member of the IPMS.  The IPMS is actually having more wood ship models entered all the time - they were the exact opposite but are changing with the times, just as MSW is.

 

Take care,

Kurt

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This it the updated policy on the banned kits and manufacturers effective September 19, 2017.

NRG / MSW POLICY ON PIRATED / RIPPED OFF KITS

 

& OTHER INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY

 

Many of you may be aware that there are some kit manufacturers that have been banned from Model Ship World.  These are mostly Chinese companies that rip off and duplicate other kits from reputable manufacturers.  We don’t want to support these business practices or the companies who practice them.

Please make note that no build logs from these MFGs will be allowed on Model Ship World, nor will discussions about them be allowed.

We had allowed some other kits which were original, made by these same banned companies to remain....BUT NO LONGER.  From this point forward.....NO KITS BY THESE MFGs WILL BE ALLOWED ON THIS SITE.

The list of banned ship model MFG’s

 

4HModel
CF
CN
DU jiao shou
DUJIAOSHOU
JD Model
LHQK

Love Model
Moxing
Nidale

RealTS
SC

Shi Cheng

Shi Hai
Snail Model
Unicorn Model
WN

Wo Niu

Woodenkit (Russian MFG)
XinFeng
YQ
YengFan
ZHL
 

 

The list includes kits many rationalize in their head are not stolen but actually are.  You may not find the manufacturer who made the kit in question but we can find the original sources pretty quickly.  Please PM Chuck Passaro BEFORE you buy one and he will let you know who originated the kit.  We have yet to find a wooden kit by a Chinese MFG that wasn’t produced in violation of US or other’s patent/copyright laws.  

 

Our forum RULES:

 

The following applies only to MSW members.  If you are not a MSW member do what you want – these rules do not apply.  Being a MSW member is not a right but a privilege and being a member of any group means you follow the rules set forth by the group.

Kits/Plans/Parts:  

  • ·         If a company/individual is known to have pirated either plans or designs from another source in order to profit from the original author's work, the use of those plans, kits or parts is prohibited from being discussed or shown on MSW.  
  • ·         Promotion of those pirated plans and or kits and or the companies that sell them is also prohibited on MSW.
  • ·         No links may be posted to sites that sell or promote pirated products unless pre-approved by admin.

Further:

  • ·         If you are building one of these pirated kits on another site, you will lose your privileges here on MSW.
  • ·         If you are found to be building, buying, praising any pirated kit/company from the list of banned Mfg's, or promoting the advancement of listed companies and individuals on another site you will be promptly banned from MSW.  
  • ·         If you are found to be promoting or condoning the practice of stealing the intellectual property of others on another site you will be promptly banned from MSW.  

These are the rules and viewpoint of NRG/MSW and we have every right to not allow anyone on the MSW site who doesn't share our values and ethics about pirating of others property.  This is not an attempt to police the internet, but our right to limit access to the many resources here on MSW to members who share our beliefs and support the protection of intellectual property rights.   

Should anyone disagree with this please send any Moderator or Administrator a PM.  We will simply agree to part ways.  We can remove you from this forum and all will be forgotten in short order.

 

 

AGAIN, JUST TO BE PERFECTLY CLEAR

 

If you are not a MSW member do what you want – these rules do not apply to you 

You are more than welcome to do it elsewhere – But not here.

So make a choice....please respect the rules on this subject or you will lose your privileges to continue as a member of MSW. 

 

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Just giving this a bump!!!!  Have a great New Year folks!!!!

 

NRG / MSW POLICY ON PIRATED / RIPPED OFF KITS

 

& OTHER INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY

 

Many of you may be aware that there are some kit manufacturers that have been banned from Model Ship World.  These are mostly Chinese companies that rip off and duplicate other kits from reputable manufacturers.  We don’t want to support these business practices or the companies who practice them.

Please make note that no build logs from these MFGs will be allowed on Model Ship World, nor will discussions about them be allowed.

We had allowed some other kits which were original, made by these same banned companies to remain....BUT NO LONGER.  From this point forward.....NO KITS BY THESE MFGs WILL BE ALLOWED ON THIS SITE.

The list of banned ship model MFG’s

 

4HModel
CF
CN
DU jiao shou
DUJIAOSHOU
JD Model
LHQK

Love Model
Moxing
Nidale

RealTS
SC

Shi Cheng

Shi Hai
Snail Model
Unicorn Model
WN

Wo Niu

Woodenkit (Russian MFG)
XinFeng
YQ
YengFan
ZHL
 

 

The list includes kits many rationalize in their head are not stolen but actually are.  You may not find the manufacturer who made the kit in question but we can find the original sources pretty quickly.  Please PM Chuck Passaro BEFORE you buy one and he will let you know who originated the kit.  We have yet to find a wooden kit by a Chinese MFG that wasn’t produced in violation of US or other’s patent/copyright laws.  

 

Our forum RULES:

 

The following applies only to MSW members.  If you are not a MSW member do what you want – these rules do not apply.  Being a MSW member is not a right but a privilege and being a member of any group means you follow the rules set forth by the group.

Kits/Plans/Parts:  

  • ·         If a company/individual is known to have pirated either plans or designs from another source in order to profit from the original author's work, the use of those plans, kits or parts is prohibited from being discussed or shown on MSW.  
  • ·         Promotion of those pirated plans and or kits and or the companies that sell them is also prohibited on MSW.
  • ·         No links may be posted to sites that sell or promote pirated products unless pre-approved by admin.

Further:

  • ·         If you are building one of these pirated kits on another site, you will lose your privileges here on MSW.
  • ·         If you are found to be building, buying, praising any pirated kit/company from the list of banned Mfg's, or promoting the advancement of listed companies and individuals on another site you will be promptly banned from MSW.  
  • ·         If you are found to be promoting or condoning the practice of stealing the intellectual property of others on another site you will be promptly banned from MSW.  

These are the rules and viewpoint of NRG/MSW and we have every right to not allow anyone on the MSW site who doesn't share our values and ethics about pirating of others property.  This is not an attempt to police the internet, but our right to limit access to the many resources here on MSW to only members who share our beliefs and support the protection of intellectual property rights.   

 

Should anyone disagree with this please send any Moderator or Administrator a PM.  We will simply agree to part ways.  We can remove you from this forum and all will be forgotten in short order.

 

 

AGAIN, JUST TO BE PERFECTLY CLEAR

 

If you are not a MSW member do what you want – these rules do not apply to you 

You are more than welcome to do it elsewhere – But not here.

 

So make a choice....please respect the rules on this subject or you will lose your privileges to continue as a member of MSW. 

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Just giving this a bump for all of our new members (and old).   This is a very important topic....

 

Below is shown the original Corel Mystique kit....and an asian ripp-off.   Dont fall for the propaganda and cheaper prices.   Do the right thing and support your ship model designers and MFGs and Authors.  Dont buy fakes.  If you are thinking about buying the Mystique kit......BUY it from the folks who developed it and not from the folks who stole it from them.

 

corel-models-.jpg

zhlmyst1.jpg

 

NRG / MSW POLICY ON PIRATED / RIPPED OFF KITS

 

& OTHER INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY

 

Many of you may be aware that there are some kit manufacturers that have been banned from Model Ship World.  These are mostly Chinese companies that rip off and duplicate other kits from reputable manufacturers.  We don’t want to support these business practices or the companies who practice them.

Please make note that no build logs from these MFGs will be allowed on Model Ship World, nor will discussions about them be allowed.

We had allowed some other kits which were original, made by these same banned companies to remain....BUT NO LONGER.  From this point forward.....NO KITS BY THESE MFGs WILL BE ALLOWED ON THIS SITE.

The list of banned ship model MFG’s

 

4HModel
CF
CN
DU jiao shou
DUJIAOSHOU
JD Model
LHQK

Love Model
Moxing
Nidale

RealTS
SC

Shi Cheng

Shi Hai
Snail Model
Unicorn Model
WN

Wo Niu

Woodenkit (Russian MFG)
XinFeng
YQ
YengFan
ZHL
 

 

The list includes kits many rationalize in their head are not stolen but actually are.  You may not find the manufacturer who made the kit in question but we can find the original sources pretty quickly.  Please PM Chuck Passaro BEFORE you buy one and he will let you know who originated the kit.  We have yet to find a wooden kit by a Chinese MFG that wasn’t produced in violation of US or other’s patent/copyright laws.  

 

Our forum RULES:

 

The following applies only to MSW members.  If you are not a MSW member do what you want – these rules do not apply.  Being a MSW member is not a right but a privilege and being a member of any group means you follow the rules set forth by the group.

Kits/Plans/Parts:  

  • ·         If a company/individual is known to have pirated either plans or designs from another source in order to profit from the original author's work, the use of those plans, kits or parts is prohibited from being discussed or shown on MSW.  
  • ·         Promotion of those pirated plans and or kits and or the companies that sell them is also prohibited on MSW.
  • ·         No links may be posted to sites that sell or promote pirated products unless pre-approved by admin.

Further:

  • ·         If you are building one of these pirated kits on another site, you will lose your privileges here on MSW.
  • ·         If you are found to be building, buying, praising any pirated kit/company from the list of banned Mfg's, or promoting the advancement of listed companies and individuals on another site you will be promptly banned from MSW.  
  • ·         If you are found to be promoting or condoning the practice of stealing the intellectual property of others on another site you will be promptly banned from MSW.  

These are the rules and viewpoint of NRG/MSW and we have every right to not allow anyone on the MSW site who doesn't share our values and ethics about pirating of others property.  This is not an attempt to police the internet, but our right to limit access to the many resources here on MSW to only members who share our beliefs and support the protection of intellectual property rights.   

 

Should anyone disagree with this please send any Moderator or Administrator a PM.  We will simply agree to part ways.  We can remove you from this forum and all will be forgotten in short order.

 

 

AGAIN, JUST TO BE PERFECTLY CLEAR

 

If you are not a MSW member do what you want – these rules do not apply to you 

You are more than welcome to do it elsewhere – But not here.

 

So make a choice....please respect the rules on this subject or you will lose your privileges to continue as a member of MSW. 

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On eBay under Community (go to bottom of page) they have a place where you can ask the VP of  Seller and Market Place Operations questions.  I asked why eBay lets counterfeit kits be listed and sold.  Go there and put in you questions and comments.  Maybe if enough of us chime in we might get some sort of response to the problem.  I think this is especially true if manufactures add their voices to the complaints.

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Just a short addition to the above post.  If you run across an auction for a counterfeit you can report it to eBay by hitting the "Report item" button located above the item number in the description.  One of the options is counterfeit items.  Maybe enough people start reporting these kits ebay might take notice and do something.

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I just tried the "Report Item" and they have no category for copied manufactured items, unless the seller says it is made by someone else, not them, Ie. it is a Rolex watch. The only copywrite category is for software.

 

As these people do not claim that the kit they are selling is, for example, an Amati kit, there is no way to report them.

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