Providence 1775 by lmagna - Artesania Latina - Continental sloop kit-bashed from colonial schooner Independence 1776 kit - First wooden POB ship build

[Piet]

Looks like you got it pretty well under control Lou - so far.

In my humble opinion I find kit building a lot more difficult then scratch, especially when bashing the kits as you do. The pore power to you my friend.

 

Cheers,

[lmagna]

1 hour ago, Piet said:

Looks like you got it pretty well under control

Looks like I have at least one person fooled! I can't help but feel that this is just a train wreck waiting to happen! The only reason that it has gone this well is more that this appears to be the perfect model for this bash more than anything I have done so far.

 

John

I will never get tired of looking at your providence, and being jealous!  Not only is a fantastic model but even if I can build something as nice I will never be able to bring it alive like you did with your figures! There is no way those figures look like they are only 1.5 inches tall!

[lmagna]

Further refinements, and re-determining main deck length and shape

 

Today was a bit of a mixed day and not much actual cutting took place. My first job was to get the dockyard crew to correct the alignment between former poop sub-deck and the quarter sub-deck. They had been glued together about a pencil mark off and it was driving me crazy! It took two more tries to get it right! The old mark-1 eyeballs must be getting old! In the process of doing this I discovered that #8 bulkhead was WAY off! It was located exactly where it was supposed to be, in the profile slot designed for it, and it is of course laser cut, but it is too narrow and would have to be moved aft by possibly ¼” or more to maintain proper fairing bow to stern. This was determined by using a ships curve, something I had not done before. I will need to look into this some more. I can’t help but think I am missing something and the people at AL would not have been this far off. 

I then went to the main deck and removed all the posts that I had left when I altered the deck heights. I had originally left them in place with the idea that they would be useful when I added the bulwarks later. It looks like this won’t be the case as I needed the clear area to draw in the new deck length and bow shape.

 

I used the ships curve again and established the new shape and at the same time shortened it by the ½” needed for an overall deck length of 65 feet.

I pretty much spent the rest of my time working out the requirements for the #1 and 2 bulkheads that will have to be altered, moved, or both to accommodate the new overall length. Initial tests using paper templates are encouraging even though it was a little hard to be precise without having the use of three or possibly six hands!

 

At this point it looks like I will only have to deal with the alteration of three bulkheads. #8 because of some unknown as yet factory error or mistake on my part, and #1 and 2 that as expected due to the alteration of the bow. I may find out other things later but I am keeping my fingers crossed.

(Next, cut and chop!)

[lmagna]

As a side note.

 

I received an email from Mystic Seaport Museum today regarding a request for some information and I made over a month ago! They were not able to provide me with the documents I was looking for but did send me a couple of museum links to stuff that I did not have and will come in useful later in the build.  Some of it confirms things I already felt were true and as usual also raised a few more questions that I will need to ask about later when I get to that part of the build! 

[mtaylor]

Looking good, Lou.  AL does have it's screwups and I see you ran into one. Been at least one kit where port side didn't match starboard side on the bulkheads.   I, sadly, don't remember which ship it was though.   What I see from your photo says it was more than just a "little" off....

 

 

[Piet]

Hey Lou, #8 bulkhead doesn't seem too big a problem. There are two ways to tackle that. One, and possibly the easiest is widen the slot towards the discrepancy side and back fill the slot. The second one is to cut new bulkhead profiles and glue them to the errant side of the bulkhead, then fare it.  You most likely figured that out already but just in case.

 

Yeah, Mystic Seaport is rather busy and I'm glad they responded. They are helpful folks and like to help as much as they can.

I'm sure you'll get to the shape of your hull as envision it

 

Cheers,

[lmagna]

Hi Mark, Piet and John, glad to see you guys. I think I was needing someone to hold my hand and make me feel better!

 

Mark,

I'm not sure that it was AL that made the mistake. After all of the fairly drastic alterations I have made to the hull it is more than likely it will turn out to at least partly be my fault. Additionally the kit could have been off by by say less than .5mm at the original deck level but I raised it by at least 10mm, so that almost invisible amount becomes very noticeable at the new deck level.

 

Piet

You are very correct. I ended up using your first method of moving the entire bulkhead further aft and I think it turned out pretty well. You will be able to see in my next update.  

[lmagna]

Modifying bow, moving bulkheads #1,2. and 8. Making fine adjustments to bulkhead # 4

 

Today I made the big jump and altered the bow shape and shortened the entire ship by another ½”.  I also moved #1 bulkhead from position #1 to position #2 on the profile piece. With the new shape I created for the forward main deck this worked out almost perfectly as a new #1 bulkhead location. I could have possibly left out bulkhead #2 as laying a stringer in place as a test seemed OK but the more I thought about it I decided to play it safe and relocate #2 for the added hull strength in the bow. I determined the new location and cut the new #2 slot. Now I was looking at a number of “used-to-be” slots that were now sitting empty! So I took some time and made filler pieces for these empty places and glued them into position.

I then did some fine modification of #4 bulkhead for a more accurate fit of the sub-deck.

 

Then it was time to move aft and take a look at bulkhead #8. As I had noticed before this bulkhead was considerably smaller than it should have been in relation to the adjoining bulkheads. After making every measurement I could think of, I decided that the easiest way to deal with it was to move it further toward the stern. This would do two things in my mind. First off it would bring the dimensions of the bulkhead into line with the rest of the hull without need to alter the shape of the bulkhead. Secondly I felt that this method would gave me a better “fudge factor” later in case I was still wrong after I fair the bulkheads for planking. If it ends up too big I only need to slide it slightly forward, if still too small I can either shim the outer surface or cut the profile notch even deeper. Today I moved it aft almost 5mm when I chickened out and stopped!

(Next the stern and transom)

[John Allen]

9 hours ago, lmagna said:

I chickened out and stopped!

Lou,

 

Kudos on all the refinements got dizzy trying to imagine all in my minds eye. If i started cutting and rearranging bulkheads and shortening transoms and bows I'd probably make so many mistakes I'd end up with a rowboat.

 

Keep on it's really turning out well sticking to the end.

[lmagna]

Thanks John

It really isn't as bad as it looks. The kit is so close to what is needed that everything has surprisingly fallen into place quite well, and each alteration has kind of just presented itself as I got to each point. I'm not enough of an engineer or smart enough to have figured all of this out in advance. Besides who says that the whole thing may not end up as a rowboat? I would at least hope for a viking ship so I can send it to sea and light it on fire if that happens but only time will tell. Some of the scariest stuff  for me is still ahead. Stuff that I have never done before that will be WAY beyond my present pay grade.

 

Like I told Don a while back, at this stage it kind of looks like scaffolding for a building, and that could always become plan B!

 

Thanks for the encouragement though it really means a lot to me. 

Edited April 30, 2018 by lmagna

[Piet]

Looks like you got the situation in hand Lou. Don't you love this tweaking here and there?

 

Cheers,

[mtaylor]

What Piet said, Lou.  Scratching is fun... but you need the additional sub-skills of cursing, tossing stuff against the wall, burning the evidence, etc....  

[lmagna]

1 minute ago, mtaylor said:

but you need the additional sub-skills of cursing, tossing stuff against the wall, burning the evidence, etc

Now THERE are skills I am well versed in!

[lmagna]

Stern and transom

 

Today I cracked the whip and made the building crew straighten up a few sloppy areas. I attached the two main sub-decks to each other so that they could now be handled as one assembly. I also fared the edges of the sub-quarterdeck to not only match the bulkheads but form a smooth line from amidships to the stern. This only required about 1mm of trimming along each side. So far so good!

 

I then went to the #10 bulkhead that forms the stern and begin work on the required shortening of the false stern timber to conform to the shortened former poop deck. It was at this time that I discovered that the #10 bulkhead is also out of alignment port to starboard! I will have to make some more cardboard template and figure out what happened, just like on bulkhead #8. Hopefully the cure will be simple! Bummer, another sleepless night! Believe it or not I had trouble sleeping last night, partly because of the issue with #8 and what I could do about it! This is VERY unusual for me. While I wake up and have to turn because of other reasons several times a night, I NEVER have trouble sleeping or getting back to sleep!

 

I went ahead and shortened the stern timbers, as whatever is needed to straighten out the bulkhead will not affect their length and angle requirements back there.

 

Not much point in posting pictures as it still looks pretty much like a refugee from a building scaffold but progress is being made.

 

(Next: Troubleshoot and correct #10 bulkhead)

Edited May 2, 2018 by lmagna

[popeye the sailor]

but NO viking funerals....too much smoke     look'in good my friend   

[lmagna]

Correcting stern frame #10

I thought I would just combine several days of progress reports into one post. Fopr the most part they are like the last post kind of boring and again I won't bother with pictures as it all pretty much looks the same.

 

After making a quarterdeck template and a bulkhead template and folding them in half in an attempt to discover why #10 protruded so far to the starboard side. My deck piece after cutting the sides down to match all of the proceeding bulkheads was perfect port to starboard with only a couple of places where the lines did not line up. Less than .5mm or about the thickness of a pencil line! Good enough for me! I then did the same for #10 bulkhead and found that it wasn’t off from the keel either! I was totally at a loss. Eventually I discovered, more by accident than by any insight by me, that if I moved just the stern of the quarterdeck ever so slightly while leaving the forward portion of the deck on its locating pin that I could eliminate almost all of the problem without altering the alignment of the other proceeding bulkheads. Again it was possibly less than .5mm but the shift did wonders. There will be additional work needed when I get everything glued into place and locked down but at least I now have a workable solution that can be planked over.

 

I then went to the stern timbers and spent what amounted to several hours getting them the way I think they should be. Part of the slowness was that I didn’t really understand how this area was designed to be planked and I got it wrong at least three times and had to cut it apart and start over each time to correct for my misunderstanding. It looks a little more ragged than it should due to all the do-overs but it now looks plank able, to me at least. Again there will need to be some fine tuning when the whole thing is glued together and everything is a little more solid.

 

Things are getting a little scarier to me now. I looked in the box today for almost the first time since I started working on this kit, and almost all of the laser cut parts are now missing! About all I have left is a bundle of sticks! I have never planked a period ship before so it looks like soon I will be seeing if I have even a fraction of the skill so many people on this forum show almost every day in their builds! Really intimidating stuff to me!

_____________________________________________________________________________________

 

I finished roughing in the stern and locating #10 bulkhead. I then went to the bow and installed some of the filler pieces that were supplied in the kit. I will probably add additional pieces from scrap also.

 

Virtually all of the bashing for this part of the build is now done. Everything that needs moving, raising, lowering, shortening or reshaping has been done. All that is left is fine tuning and shaping of very fine areas and getting the hull ready for the next step, siding and planking. This process will probably take several days or possibly even longer depending on how much I get to work on it. I doubt I will bother taking pictures or logging it as not only will there be little to see, (Taking off a mm here and a mm there is kind of like watching grass grow!) but will also probably be a bit boring to even read about. So for you people who are following this I will forgo you the pain and just wait for follow-ups until this part is done.

 

I also took time to locate the new position for the mast as of course I am converting a schooner to a sloop. Most real life ships would have been done the other way around in order to reduce the needed crew size and add more sail area at the same time.

Using a sample of six sloops and cutters of American and British origin, I measured the mast location on the plans available and converted that to feet. I came up with a maximum distance from the bow of almost 24 feet and a minimum of about 18’. I threw those two numbers out and ended up with three ships at 19.5’, one at 21’, and one at almost 22’, so I opted to locate the mast at 19.5 feet from the bow. I also increased the size of hole in the new location to accommodate a 3/8” diameter mast instead of the smaller diameter schooner masts. Of course the new location just HAD to end up almost right on top of one of the bulkhead locations!

Hopefully all this stuff won’t take too long and I will be able to show some before and after pictures in a while.

 

At  this point I had spent enough time on the after part of the hull so that almost all of the frames under the quarterdeck were of the right size and even so there was really no reason to spend any more time back there. So I went to the bow and midship area and spent pretty much all my time there. As I had lowered the midship deck about 1/8” and the original forecastle about half an inch, with the exception of bulkheads one and two, all the other bulkheads needed to be narrowed by about 1mm on each side at the new deck level.  Bulkheads 1 and 2 had been moved when the bow was shortened and basically required their own fine tuning for proper shape. The other bulkheads 3, 4, and 5 were about 1mm wider in each side than they should have been and were reduced accordingly. I then fared in the whole hull bow to stern and cut the bearding line into the profile strip.

 

Hopefully next will be some before and after views, (Does this angle make me look fat?) and then on to more interesting stuff to read about and see.

[popeye the sailor]

I can see your point about not taking pictures.......but for someone who is trying to do something similar,  pictures would be a big help.   it may also give an idea to someone who can't figure out a certain problem with their projects.  just putt'in it out there  

 

missing parts.......did ninja kitty strike again?!?!?!!

[Old Collingwood]

Good start Lou,  hope the minions are helping - they can be mischievous  if you dont keep them busy.

 

OC.

[lmagna]

Hi Denis

There will be plenty of pictures when they start showing something different or unusual. When I wrote the above stuff I took pictures as well on each day, but when I went to compile them with the day-to-day progress, it was even hard for me to tell what was different from the last pictures I had posted. When everything you are doing is removing a millimeter here or half a millimeter there it is hard to make it stand out even in the closer pictures. When you are doing planking or ratlines or even cannons it may be fiddly and even tedious, but at least you can show the progress.

 

"missing parts.......did ninja kitty strike again?!?!?!!"

 

Not before when I posted the above, but when I drilled the new mast hole and fitted the locator piece under the deck I was unable to find the second one! (Remember this was a schooner and had two masts) I took a flashlight and looked everywhere without luck. I found a stick from my normal work area in the other room that she had obviously been playing with but no mast locator! Probably wasted a half an hour!

 

 

 

Hi OC

Nice to see you here. I have been following both your builds and playing squirrel, stashing away bits here and there that I hope will help me in a short time when I have to start doing the REALLY hard stuff that is completely new to me. (Don't tell Denis, but I do the same with his builds).

 

The Minions are so-so but they work cheap. Besides they give me someone to yell at when things don't go like they should. You don't expect ME to take the blame do you?

Edited May 3, 2018 by lmagna

[lmagna]

Thought it was time to do a little update on this log.

 

I have not been doing anything over the last couple of weeks as I have not really been myself and I was kind of unable to deal with much in the way of a normal life, or really concentrate on anything for more than a short time. Pretty much just wandering around like a zombie most of the time. Of course real time life has a way of forcing its way to the forefront and imposing real time needs whether you are ready or not. So in addition to chores, bills, and other everyday necessities I forced myself to get back on the bench and get some modeling work done as well. I am still only doing short sessions so progress is a bit slow but it is progress and is also helping mentally. I found that posting and following others on the forum has also helped so here I am.

 

On my last update I told Denis that I would wait to do follow ups until there was more to show, as all that seemed to be going on was little adjustments here and there that didn’t even show up  in pictures so why bother? Well almost immediately my little adjustments here and there became a “What on earth did I do to myself!”

 

When I started what I thought was the next step of fairing the bulkheads in preparation for the dreaded planking to come, it became apparent almost immediately that I had made a BIG mistake when I shortened the hull by cutting off ½” of the bow rather than cut out ½” from the amidships area like I should have. I knew better so that made it even worse! By moving the first two bulkheads I altered the hull lines so much that there was not going to be any way to maintain hull lines from the wales down! After getting over the OH NO! I determined that the only way to recover without having to start all over would be to fill the first three spaces with balsa wood and sand the whole thing down as if I was working with a solid hull.

 

When I begin this build I was shocked at how much the kit looked like an enlarged  MS Sultana so I took the station forming templates from my Sultana kit and enlarged them by 22% and made two templates that would allow me to properly form the new bow and keep it even on both sides.

The work has gone fairly quickly and now is at the stage where all I need to do are some fill in places and fine tuning of the shape side to side. Still a little ways to go but it looks like I shouldn’t need to start over at least.

 

It has been so long since I did any work though I had to chase off some local livestock that had wandered in before I could start. 

  There is still some more shaping to go and it is still hard to do full sessions at building, but I will try and keep at it and be back soon with hopefully some more progress. Thanks for stopping in and looking.

Edited May 17, 2018 by lmagna

[John Allen]

2 hours ago, lmagna said:

Thanks for stopping in and looking.

Lou,

Looks like 3 boats are melding into one, now to be called the real Providence. Kudos

[Piet]

Hi Lou, I just caught up with you. Sorry to hear about you slow down condition but fully understand. Yep, kit bashing brings a few problems with it but it's challenging and fun. I'm glad you figured out how to manage the problems that cropped up. She's taking shape and that's the main thing.

Keep at it my friend.

 

Cheers,

[lmagna]

Thanks for stopping by John and Piet.

 

Right now it is just one kit, the  AL Independence, that is making the ultimate sacrifice. All I will be using from other kits and sources will be plans and stuff like that. when I am done with the hull it will be pretty much a scratch build from that point on using the other information.

[Old Collingwood]

20 minutes ago, lmagna said:

Thanks for stopping by John and Piet.

 

Right now it is just one kit, the  AL Independence, that is making the ultimate sacrifice. All I will be using from other kits and sources will be plans and stuff like that. when I am done with the hull it will be pretty much a scratch build from that point on using the other information.

Great progress Lou   and I feel your pain about our little hobby, some times it felt to me like I was making One step forward and two steps back, also I am in the same boat (excuse the pun) of having to canabalise on build to construct another.

 

OC.

[lmagna]

Thank you OC

 

I suppose I could have built from the plans available for the Replica Providence built in 1976 but I felt there were too many concessions made for 20th century regulations and desires made after the fact.  I wanted to build something a little more period correct if possible, and the AL Independence seemed to fit the bill the closest. The bow goof was of my own doing and could have easily been avoided with a little better forethought.

 

As Piet called it earlier this is a 'concept' build and subject to more interpretation than most people like for a named vessel. But I am stuck with what I have and I REALLY want to build a model that I at least feel can be called Providence.

[popeye the sailor]

good to see you back at the table.   

[lmagna]

Thanks Denis

 

May be on and off for a while but I will try and keep it going. Those darn Minions refuse to work alone!

[alde]

I'm looking forward to watching this one come together. These little colonial era ships are beautiful. 

[mtaylor]

On 5/18/2018 at 12:53 PM, lmagna said:

Thanks Denis

 

May be on and off for a while but I will try and keep it going. Those darn Minions refuse to work alone!

Minions?  You have minions?!!!!   

[lmagna]

Hi Mark

Yeah I'm out of town for my anniversary right now. Those guys are probably back at the ship yard undoing everything. 

 

Hello Al

Nice to see you. As you know I also like the ships from this era, but I am especially fond of the history of the Providence. I hope I will be able to do it justice. It's not as complex or as intricate as your build but I have enjoyed it so far.