Providence 1775 by lmagna - Artesania Latina - Continental sloop kit-bashed from colonial schooner Independence 1776 kit - First wooden POB ship build

[John Allen]

6 hours ago, lmagna said:

terrorist Kitty got bored and passed out:

Lou,

 

Your Providence taking shape, looks great. You cleared the major hump, of melding the hull from 3 to 1. Easy going now.

 

Being a cat owner for many years your cute little terror is playing possum. Shes hoping you leave the room so she can do the claw sharpening thing on all that soft wood,beware my friend.

[lmagna]

Thanks for the warning John. What you say is totally true. It seems that the times she is resting is just a recharge for her next effort of getting in trouble and destroying something. What makes it worse is that the cat was the Admiral's idea and she just had to have her. Now it seems like a daily yelling at me about the latest action of the little terrorist!

[mtaylor]

Lou,

I'd say do what's most comfortable for you.  Either way works and once you hit that point, care in handling is key.  With POB, the externa hull is pretty much inflexible.

[lmagna]

Hi Mark

Thanks for the feedback. I suppose I am a bit apprehensive on both directions. I have done both procedures but never to MSW standards, and so long ago that it probably doesn't count as an acquired skill.

 

If I do the hull first including the bulwarks then I will have to do the planking of the decks inside of a bathtub so to speak. If I do the deck first then I will have to make up my mind now about the location and types of deck furniture and hatches. I think I am also a little afraid of that commitment as well.

 

I guess I will have to give it considerable thought while I finish fairing the bulkheads and stern.

Edited June 3, 2018 by lmagna

[Piet]

That hull shape looks rather nice Lou.  I'm surprised at the sharp entrance though, not expected to see for a ship of the mid 18th century.

Planking hull first or deck first is a toss up.  Some do deck first others do hull first.  I planked my VOC ship "Surabaya" hull first op to deck level. I needed many false frames above deck level because it is a frame on bulkhead model and the hull planking gave me the extra support.

 

Good to see you making progress.

 

Cheers,

[lmagna]

Thanks Piet

Thanks for stretching your day to stop in for a look.

 

For the most part I used the lines of three ships of the period and several others to arrive at the feasibility of the bow entrance shape. Because I was trying to duplicate a merchant hull with a more refined cut water of the mid 1700s I didn't want to get too extreme like on a couple of English Cutters or the present day Providence. Strangely enough the shape that most closely met my needs was the Sultana of 1768. I actually used the #1 and #2 hull template for the MS kit blown up by 22% as my guides to keep everything even between port and starboard. I could have reduced the flair between waterline and deck level by reducing the roundness of the deck at the forecastle deck but then I would have been doing the same thing they did to the present day Providence to make her faster. They altered the bow and hull so badly in the present day Providence that they made her unstable and had to reduce the sail plan area to keep her stable! 

 

So what you are saying is that you partly planked your ship up to the deck line and then installed the deck planks before doing the bulwarks? I don't need the rigidity, this thing is almost as solid as a baseball bat now but I am still being scared of a little by having to make final decisions on the deck furniture and openings arrangement  and hull planking will give me a little more time to arrange the whole thing in my mind. It also sounds like possibly a good compromise between the two methods. Or is that procrastination? 

 

So after I finish the fairing of the bulkheads and shaping the #10 bulkhead I will need to determine one other structural design question and proceed ahead. Thanks for the input Mark and Piet.

 

More questions to follow.    

[Old Collingwood]

Hiya mate,    I agree  you cant really go wrong how ever you tackle the next stage,  I found bending and spacing the first planking for the hull, to be the most taxing and difficult, and it wasn't until I purchased one of those (heat plank benders - looks like an electrical soldering iron but without the soldering tip).

But you could always do the build in different stages  like - putting the false deck in first then adding a few hull planks then start a few deck planks from the centerline.

 

Its really a veried situation without any particular set rules,  just try to mix the easy steps with the difficult ones.

 

OC.

[lmagna]

OK I have a question of people out there. Hopefully someone looking in will have some idea and even better yet some input on the matter.

 

In my original and continual research on building this ship some things were and are determined out of necessity by common practice rather than actual knowledge of what was done on the Providence in particular, as there is no record available that is definitive to the Providence.

 

I have already decided on the shape and structure of the bow and entry on this model based on lines and plans for other ships of the time and a research paper by Kellie Michelle Vanhorn  called EIGHTEENTH-CENTURY COLONIAL AMERICAN MERCHANT SHIP CONSTRUCTION.  

 

The area I am questioning is also described on pages 24-26 of her paper, with her calling them square and round tucks. The area below the stern counter, mostly above the waterline on either side of the stern rudder beam.

 

As far as I can determine the two styles of stern were almost interchangeable for ships of this type and size, and it made little difference if they were built for merchant or military use. Chuck's Cheerful clearly uses a version of the square tuck while the Sultana uses a rounded tuck. The other ships I have used as reference also seem to be pretty random in this area with no apparent preference. The Cheerful does seem to be unique in that she is the only one that seems to use framing around the square tuck of the stern and the planks along the side of the hull where they meet the stern.

 

Does anyone out there have knowledge in this area of design that would lend favor to one design over the other for this particular build?   

[lmagna]

Thanks OC

 

I think I will try a combination approach, planking from the wales down and then planking the deck before I add the bulwarks above the deck line.

 

As the bulwarks are precut plywood on this model, I will probably install them temporarily as a guide for the wales and lower planking, and remove them for the deck planking, making the final installation after the deck planking is finished.

 

At this point I only intend to do one layer of hull planking as it will be painted and I am just using kit wood anyway, nothing special. If I screw it up too bad though there is a possibility that I will have to do the second layer to cover up the first disaster. At this stage I can't really mix the easy with the hard steps as it is all the first time for me in this area and they are all intimidating steps for me!

 

Thanks for the input and advice, it is truly valued. 

Edited June 4, 2018 by lmagna

[Old Collingwood]

4 minutes ago, lmagna said:

Thanks OC

 

I think I will try a combination approach, planking from the wales down and then planking the deck before I add the bulwarks above the deck line.

 

As the bulwarks are precut plywood on this model, I will probably install them temporarily as a guide for the wales and lower planking, and remove them for the deck planking, making the final installation after the deck planking is finished.

 

Thanks for the input and advice, it is truly valued. 

No problem my friend.

 

OC.

[lmagna]

1 hour ago, canoe21 said:

You are very lucky that your terrorist cat has not found your old Ship Yard to terrorize !!!!!

Hello Lawrence

Thanks for stopping by and looking in. 

Kitty has stopped in to the building yard. In fact she pretty much ran me out of the yard I had set up in another room by pretty much knocking anything and everything off onto the floor. I was finding parts of older built models in other rooms! I finally not only had to move the building area but I had to box up all of my older built kits and put them away to stop further damage! She still grabs stuff from the new location now and then but so far the model is not advanced enough to look like a toy or be all that delicate. So far she is limiting herself to just grabbing a bent paperclip or small piece of scrap wood now and then.

 

On this build I am afraid I am breaking most if not all of the rules. I am not really trying to modify the kit but rather using it as a base for an entirely different ship. So far I have not only altered the hull and decks but she will be rigged as a sloop rather than a schooner. Not everything is freelance though. There are a few "rules" I have to follow relating to a very few things that ARE KNOWN about the Providence, and some others that would have to be considered logical if not factual if the build is to be accurate to the concept. As an example, although this is a Colonial sloop built in the mid/late 1700, it is modeled after the Hudson Bay sloops not the better known and documented Bermuda sloops like the AVS kit. Based on this there are things I may have to do that if left free lance I would prefer not to do, and others that I would like to add for aesthetic reasons that would not be proper for the Providence. There is A LOT of reading between the lines to try and determine which is which.

 

Again it's nice to see you here. I have been following your Oliver Cromwell build and even though it is POF I am sure I will learn from your build just as I have from so many others.   

Edited June 5, 2018 by lmagna

[popeye the sailor]

glad to hear your getting back in the saddle again.   about the bulwarks........if the bulkheads have the bulwark posts,  I would think you could start planking at the top......but before you do,  you would need to frame out all of the gun ports and plank around them.   a lot of folks start at the deck line and go downward towards the keel,  saving the bulwarks for last, since there is a lot of fancy cutting to do.

[mtaylor]

Lou,  it's a bash build. You're doing great and making some tough decisions along the way. 

 

Pity there's no cat repellent.

[alde]

3 minutes ago, mtaylor said:

Pity there's no cat repellent.

They do tend to mellow as they get older but that could take a couple of years. Of course in the meantime there is always a squirt gun. 

[lmagna]

Hi Guys

Good to see you looking in.

Home stuff has bit into some build time in the last few days so not much more done since the last pictures. Right now I am trying to recover from removing my old bed/mattress set and carting the new mattress and box spring set up the double spiral staircase at the entry of my house so I would have a place to sleep tonight. I think it was not long ago when I said I would rather sell everything than move it all if I ever leave this house. I double that now! 

 

Terrorist Kitty is not a super problem with the Providence in the new working location, (YET) but a couple of days ago she reduced a needlefelt doll my wife made earlier this year at a week long class in Texas to little fluffs of wool that would have looked just right on Piet's Java diorama! As for the squirt gun treatment, this cat taunts you when you go for the water squirter! She thinks it's a game. When she was REALLY SMALL, (about 2 pounds) she learned that she could fly to the top of the entertainment center, about six and a half feet from the floor, and knock over dolls and plants my wife has up there. We started using the squirt gun and it even worked a few times and she would jump down. Now days she jumps up there and looks at you over the edge challenging you to get to the squirt gun before she can jump down and get under the couch to avoid the water! She usually wins even against the kids with their refined X-Box reflexes!

 

I'm going to install the plywood bulwarks temporally and lay the wales and lower planks with that as a guide, and probably get the hull fully planked before I do the deck. that will give me a little more time to work out deck openings and access points. I will install new bulwarks after I plank the decks that will match the new locations of the decks and the required gun positions. Right now I need to finalize my mind on doing a flat or rounded stern tuck planking. 

Edited June 7, 2018 by lmagna

[lmagna]

Not much to take pictures of but I have been making some progress. I have been sanding and checking and then sanding and checking again, then measuring and sanding and.................... In general just making a big mess that needs to be vacuumed up but is almost invisible in pictures. So far I have almost completely fared all the frames and installed the quarter deck and stern piece so everything is all one piece for the first time since I started.

 

I decided to go for a round tuck stern as It seems like no one else has much of an opinion on what would be more common on small ships of this time and design, none of my research seems to care either, and the original kit called for a round tuck before i modified the stern. Now if I can just carry it off. I have never done planking on a ship like this and the whole concept pretty much has me terrified, Along with just about everything else left to be done on this build. It's ALL new territory to me from this point onward.

 

One thing that I no longer need to deal with is the ship's boat!  I have been working on this in my head and on paper for a while to design and build a 4"(+-) ship's boat that would fit between the mast and quarterdeck cabin! Master Korabel announced today that they will be producing a boat that will measure in at 102mm! Just a little over 4"!! Their products are first rate and I am sure it will be better than anything I could scratch build any day. Happy happy joy joy!!

Hopefully I will have something to look at in a week or so.

[mtaylor]

I saw that also, Lou on the ship's boat.   I hope it works out.   

[lmagna]

Hi Mark

Assuming they get it built and marketed as I am almost certain they will, it is as if they were designing the perfect boat for my build! 

 

102 mm was exactly what I was looking for in length, (About 16') I was thinking of about 40 mm in beam as in a Jolly Boat' but 33 mm works also at 5'. Now all I have to do is decide on whether to carry it on davits like they do on the Avos, (Not sure if that was communally done in the mid/late 1700s) or put it on deck behind the mast. 

[Piet]

Just check'n in with you Lou. Great news on that ship's boat, saves you some time.

 

Cheers,

[lmagna]

Hi Piet

Nice to have you drop in, it will not only save time but i am sure it will look better than anything I would hve been able to do from scratch.

[DocBlake]

Anxious to see the start of the planking!

 

 

[lmagna]

11 hours ago, DocBlake said:

Anxious to see the start of the planking!

That makes one of us Dave! 

 

The whole prospect has me more than a little terrified. The only planking I have ever done was about 25 years ago on an Icebreaker tug hull and even though I didn't follow the rules as I know them now from this site. the hull came out OK.

 

But this time I "Know better" and trying to do it the right way, in public so to speak, has me very nervous! I have all the bulkheads faired and I need to add some attachment pieces at the stern for the planking.

 

I also need to do a little back tracking on the sub-quarter deck as I didn't get one side right, and I have a warp along the edge that I didn't catch until I glued it down!  So I need to get it apart again and increase the camber on that one side of the bulkhead and glue it back down!

It possibly would not be seen later If I went ahead, as it can only really be seen when you look down the deck sheer line, and that would not be visible after planking. But it might also become more visible, in which case it would be even harder to deal with. If it was a low spot I could just fill it in at this point and all would be good but it seems to be that somehow I did not get enough camber in that beam so the deck is too flat! 

 

Thanks for dropping into check up on me.

[alde]

You’ll be fine Lou. Just don’t glue until your happy with the way the plank lays on the frames and takes the bends. Once you start using the tick strips and fitting planks things will start feeling better. Can’t learn until you jump in.

[lmagna]

1 hour ago, alde said:

Just don’t glue until your happy with the way the plank lays on the frames and takes the bends

Easy to say, hard to do. I keep laying my test plank everywhere I can from deck line to keel, bow to transom looking for places that don't flow! But  am almost certain that there will be something somewhere that will bite me in the backside that I will not notice until it is glued in place. Probably won't even notice it until I am three planks down the hull!  It would almost be easier to fill in the rest of the spaces with Balsa blocks making it a solid hull and plank over that!

[alde]

Balsa filler may not be a bad idea. It will go easier.

[lmagna]

Thanks Al

I will at lest try and do the planking thing as others have done. At very most I may have to rip it all apart again or go the Viking funeral route. Like you say I need to just jump in and get on with it.

[mtaylor]

Balsa filling is a good idea especially with a blunt bow. Then again, for any bow.

[lmagna]

Hi Mark

I already had to fill in the bow because of the stupid I pulled a while back on how I chose to shorten the over all length of the hull. I did some more tweaking and tuning today and I think I am at least getting an idea on how it has to come together in my head. If I can keep it together there when I start laying blanks in a week or so then I should be able follow it through. I am beginning to think that even if I don't do a proper job it will at least be functional and I will be able to cover it up in some way or another. 

[Old Collingwood]

Great idea with the boat lou,   I loved building one of my small boats from my previous Vic build (the pic of the boat is in my avatar)

 

It too was a small kit form built up from a center keel with ribs then a few small sections of thin planks, then I added all the inside work - I realy enjoyed building it.

 

OC.

[lmagna]

Hi OC

 

There are a few kit-within-a-kit things with ship builds I think. The ships boat(s), the transom, and some of the deck details. Not much going on at the bow on this ship but others like most of your builds do.