Providence 1775 by lmagna - Artesania Latina - Continental sloop kit-bashed from colonial schooner Independence 1776 kit - First wooden POB ship build

[popeye the sailor]

you're planking!   GOOD!!!     just do it..........there's no thought about what to do next,  just make sure that the frame is fared and go for it.  I plank the same way.......I do the wales first,  and then the thinner hull planks.  the wales look more transitional and build it.....so to speak.   there is no separation line,  as with gluing the wales on after the initial planking....just looks better in my view      I'm sure your bending your planks,  due to that blunt bow.  nice start so far!

[lmagna]

Hi John

"looks great considering what was in your minds eye"

Unfortunately there are places where that is not true and it seems I am always rocking between back tracking and Viking funeral! Possibly the only reason the Viking funeral has not won out is that I am cheap by nature, and the hull won't float yet! There is a flaw in the basic design that has been bugging me for a week now that no one has commented on yet but is glaring to me! I am just now getting an idea of how to properly correct it.

2 hours ago, Dowmer said:

I hope our conversations off line have spurred you on

Hi Dowmer

Our offline conversations have been invaluable, and now that we have cought up in history/research and concept are becoming even more so. There is nothing like a sounding board to help bring thoughts alive. 

 

The wood I used for the wales is not from the kit as the Independence did not have the wide wales and nothing was provided. I had to grab some thicker and wider stock from my stash/ The size I think was 6 X 1.5 mm verses the 5 X 1 mm supplied in the kit for first planking. Later I will still need to add a second planking over the wales to make them even thicker. The remainder of the hull will be done with the standard kit planking.

2 hours ago, popeye the sailor said:

I'm sure your bending your planks,  due to that blunt bow.

Hi Denis

You are right about that! The bend around the bow is a doozy! It is pretty scary and requires not only the bend, but a twist and a curve at the same time! I had to take it a fraction of an inch at a time to get it done. I am sure glad I had to fill in the bow with Balsa, as it has made it much easier. I still have a bunch of skills to acquire in order to do an acceptable job on the stuff still to come.

 

Thanks everyone for stopping in and looking. I need to go and do some stuff for the Admiral now.

 

Later

[Dowmer]

24 minutes ago, lmagna said:

Later I will still need to add a second planking over the wales to make them even thicker. The remainder of the hull will be done with the standard kit planking.

Lou, my pleasure.  I have enjoyed our conversations immensely. 

 

For planking here's some numbers for you from Steel's 1805 Shipwrights Vade Mecum so you know what you are shooting for plank thickness.  If you already have a source then disregard.  Only added so you can bounce it off your documentation and plank stock of what you have in your Lumberyard. :).

 

Taken for a 60 Ton Sloop which should be close enough.

Wales: 2 strakes 16" wide and 4" thick.  There was a 3"x8" rubbing strake over the top of the wales if you choose to use it as well.

Thickstuff under Wales: 3" thick tapering down to 2" for the rest of the bottom.

Topside planks: From the Wales to the Sheer rail 1.5"

 

 

[alde]

Don’t be to critical of yourself Lou. It’s looking pretty good. These aren’t skills that come naturally and take practice. Once the hull is fully planked and you can see the real shape of the hull it will all be worth it.

[lmagna]

1 hour ago, Dowmer said:

For planking here's some numbers for you

Now you done and did it Dowmer, starting to add authenticity and documentation to the build!

 

I do have a few questions though. when he uses "2 strakes 16" wide" does he mean combined width or total width? Where would the 3 X 8" rubbing rail be located on the wale, top,bottom, or somewhere in between? I always thought the wale WAS the rubbing rail hence It's location along the widest part of the hull above the waterline and thicker lumber. On the other sizes I am hoping they are all thickness measurements and not width as I really didn't want to go out and buy a bunch of lumber, (One of the reasons I started with altering the kit rather than starting from scratch). The wood provided is 5 mm wide working out to 9" scale width. All I can say at this point is that the 5 mm "LOOKS" OK. (Remember TLAR?)

 

Keep it coming, I am in desperate need of the education!

2 hours ago, alde said:

Don’t be to critical of yourself

Hi Al

I have to be critical of myself as you guys are far too nice to tell me if I am producing a complete piece of junk, and if I am not careful I WILL get lazy and accept stuff that I know is wrong or I have the ability to do better. I know that there are others who can do it better, (Almost anyone) but I am talking about always trying for MY best, whatever that is. There is also the possibility that once the hull is fully planked it will be too late! That's my nightmare!

[Dowmer]

2 minutes ago, lmagna said:

I do have a few questions though. when he uses "2 strakes 16" wide" does he mean combined width or total width? Where would the 3 X 8" rubbing rail be located on the wale, top,bottom, or somewhere in between? I always thought the wale WAS the rubbing rail hence It's location along the widest part of the hull above the waterline and thicker lumber. On the other sizes I am hoping they are all thickness measurements and not width as I really didn't want to go out and buy a bunch of lumber

Lou, Good questions and I am by no means an authority.  I suppose I showed my shallowness of knowledge LOL :).  There are no doubt plenty of people following this thread that are more experienced than me, but I'll give it a go.

 

I read Steel as two strakes for a total of 16".  So two 8" planks.  Specifically the document says Main Wales broad: 1'4" , Number of strakes: two.

A 16" plank is pretty wide although doable back then but two 8" planks makes more sense to me. Especially sense it says Wales broad, not strakes.

 

What I'm calling the rubbing strake is called in the book Thickstuff upon the Main Wales: one.  3" thick and 8" broad. 

I understand it was placed at the top of edge of the wales because after this the next line says  Stuff of Topside.  Diminishes from thickstuff upon the wales to under the edge of the sheer strake: 1 1/2"  So the Thickstuff upon the wales would have to be on the top edge for the "topside stuff" to be adjacent to it.  Does that make sense?  What you said about the wales being a rubbing area is true, but it also served other functions like strengthening the hull.  I think the rubbing strake or "thickstuff upon the wales" was just added protection and stiffening.  On larger ships it shows "two" strakes.  One at the top and another at the bottom of the wales if you look at some contemporary models like in the Rogers Collection.

 

19 minutes ago, lmagna said:

On the other sizes I am hoping they are all thickness measurements and not width

Yes, thickness measurements

 

21 minutes ago, lmagna said:

The wood provided is 5 mm wide working out to 9" scale width. All I can say at this point is that the 5 mm "LOOKS" OK. (Remember TLAR?)

 

That sounds about right and reasonable to have a 9" plank.  I think you are OK Lou

 

If I messed this up, then someone please chime in.

 

 

[alde]

Lou, planking is one of those things we all scratch our heads over. There are so many tutorials explaining it in different terms that it gets confusing. That’s were a kit or plans with pre spiled planks comes in handy. Once you see how the planks are formed and lay on the hull it all clicks. The little paper back booklet put out by Model Shipways is a great reference. Have you used tic strips yet? Once I learned that little trick things kinda made more sense to me.

[lmagna]

1 hour ago, Dowmer said:

I read Steel as two strakes

I was afraid of that. If I had used two of the 5 mm kit planks like I originally looked at I would have been pretty much right on. By going to the thicker planks I also had to use the 7 mm wide planks so now I am at about 24" instead of 16"! Too great of a difference to stay. That means I will either have to cut off 1/2 of the lower strake plank or remove it and replace it with a narrower plank. That's what I get for building first and asking later. Hopefully that won't happen too often, but knowing me it almost surly will!

 

I have the MS book on planking along with Lord knows how many other sources if instruction. I am relatively sure I can do it, in fact I KNOW I can do it by just cutting and fitting. I have done that method of planking even though it was over twenty something years ago, but a hull is a hull. It is just the doing it in the approved manner that is an unknown approach for me. If I was planing on making it a double planked hull I could still do it the "old" way. Why would it matter at this stage? But i am still hoping my efforts will be adequate.

 

Looks like another one step forward and two back time.  

Edited June 28, 2018 by lmagna

[John Allen]

Lou, 

 

My 2 cents from a nobody (still an apprentice). Lay the one on 1 side lay 2 on the other see which one is more pleasing to your eye. Just a light tack can be readily removed. (if you need more wood tear up one of the bosses wooden utensils.)

[lmagna]

Sorry John

It's a little late for that now!

 

I spent the last couple of nights hacken and whackin and in general making splinters just in case I need kindling for that Viking funeral. I stripped the two lower wale planks and after cleaning up the residue laid new new 5 mm planks. As I don't have planks this size that are as thick as i needed I double planked them to bring them up to the same thickness as the first wale I had left in place. I now have wales that are 18" wide instead of something like 24" when I was supposed to have 16"! I can live with two scale inches off. (About 1 mm) the planking is not as tight as the original but I will need to add additional thickness later anyway so i can deal with that then. It was only after I did all this that I realized that I could have just left it all alone and just added the proper sized wales over what I already had and been done with it! No need to do all the stripping! Sometimes it's hard to see the forest for the trees!

 

In addition I have not been happy with the entire quarterdeck look since I installed the wales. It just didn't look right. I was also concerned that I had raised it too far. While standing on the main deck, the quarter deck was about shoulder high to a 6' man. Not quite high enough to walk directly in without ducking or having a raised entry. I could have kept this, After Millar had designed the present day Replica with a full height quarter cabin. But almost all the admittedly small information I have about the Providence is against this kind of cabin. So in order to make a somewhat long story a little shorter. I ripped up the entire quarterdeck roof and returned it to it's original height. This makes the height of the quarterdeck above the main deck only about 3.5 feet and to me it looks much more proper. I also left the Poop deck about 12" higher so now there is a raised poop section where the helmsman will work. That arrangement makes me feel much better about the entire rear half of the ship, and the two stage quarterdeck with the raised tiller platform was really quite common in 1767.

 

So now that the chips have settled down a little i am pretty much back to where i was  a few weeks ago! I need to visit the hobby shop as I don't think i have a large enough piece of thin ply to make a new sub-quarterdeck. When I get that done I will start planking for real and make it all start looking more like a real ship. At least that is the intent. We will have to see if the skill is there to make it happen.

 

I should have some pictures next time. Until then thanks for stopping in and looking.    

[Dowmer]

Nice work Lou. Sometimes its tuff to see the easier solution. I think the ship will be better for it in the long run. You are making some wise yet logical choices. 

[Old Collingwood]

Thats a great start with the planking lou,  its is a scary stage  and I remember feeling it had beaten me with my build,  but remember the first planking can help to mold into how the planks sit, even if they turn out a bit rough or not fully sitting next to each(not a problem - the second planking will cover that)   also with the wales you canfiddle around with those as you need - adding even small  strips if you need more width, or even laying some thin strips ontop if you need to increse the width of the wale.

I found with each adjustment I felt my way around my build - getting to know her profile and shape etc.

 

I believe you can always add more planks ontop in thin layers to clean things up or add more width.

 

OC.

[DocBlake]

The planking is looking good Lou.  The only way to do it is just do it!  The first planking will teach you a lot about how the screwy hull shape wants to take the second planking!

[Piet]

You are on the right track Lou, keep plugging at it.  Question: are you single or double planking?

 

Cheers,

[lmagna]

Thanks Dowmer and OC, Glad to see you drop by again Dave and Piet.

 

One of the possible problems is that I am not really following any plans such as you would in a normal kit or even scratch build. The Independence kit did not have wide wales and the only contemporary painting of the Providence indicates that she did, so I had to do my own and of course made them too wide. Dowmer and Al provided me with the correct information and as the difference was too much to ignore so I had to do a mulligan. I was really quite happy with the original planking except that I had done it wrong!

 

The second problem is that I am hoping that I will not have to do a second planking. I know blasphemy, but as this will be a painted model and I am not using anything but kit wood, it seems a waste of time  to do a second planking  unless I totally hose the first.

Edited July 1, 2018 by lmagna

[lmagna]

OK here it goes. Time to show some of my pathetic progress. I was going to do it last night but the kids and puppy got in the way and before I knew it it was nappy time.

I pretty much went over it above but mostly all I did was correct the width of the wales and alter the quarterdeck so that when I plank the sides the the deck will be at a more proper height above the main deck without having to run at a steep angle to the stern. 

I only have the old quarterdeck banded in place as I was unable to get the time yesterday to get a new piece of ply. As soon as I get the new piece and mount it I will start planking in earnest. I am much happier with this deck arrangement and think it is more period authentic than what I had before.

 

Hopefully i can start doing some doing instead of redoing for a while.

 

Thanks everyone for looking in and bearing with me. 

[Dowmer]

Nice, even a little progress is still forward movement. Like you said, once you have the new quarterdeck secured things will speed up.  

 

Something to consider, if you are going to stain or dye your Wales black you might want to do that before your other planks go on to reduce the mess. Of course if you are painting then you can mask and it isn’t much of a problem. I’ll shut up now. 

Edited July 1, 2018 by Dowmer

[lmagna]

Thanks Dowmer

I went to the hobby shop to get the wood and guess what? Closed! How dare them be closed when I was able to sneak out unsupervised for a few minutes! After all it's not like us retired people get all that much time each day!

[mtaylor]

The curse of local hobby shop strikes again...  They do that here also.   But we do have a HobbyLobby being built.    As for your hull... looking pretty sweet.

[Piet]

That's some nice looking progress Lou. That wale has a nice, sweet, gentle curve.

 

Cheers,

[alde]

Hey, she's taking shape Lou. Pioneering can be slow but modeling something like Providence will be worth while.

[lmagna]

2 hours ago, mtaylor said:

The curse of local hobby shop strikes again

Hi Mark The only problem with that is that Hobby Lobby prides itself as being a Christian organization and NONE of their stores are open on Sunday.

 

Thanks for the encouragement Piet and Al It really dose mean a lot to me.  

Edited July 2, 2018 by lmagna

[alde]

Lou, do you have any decent hobby shops on your side of the water? The only one we have is dedicated to RC and plastic models. They have some basswood,  balsa and plywood and of course some tools and paint but not much else. I usually get everything in the mail.

[lmagna]

Hi Al

 

i have one about two blocks away that used to be almost strictly trains but over the years has had to expand it's inventory. It has an OK selection for what i need and I am pretty sure that he would order stuff if I asked.

 

Then we have a Hobby Town a couple of miles down the road, and a pretty good size hobby shop in Lynnwood that was started by a friend of mine years ago, bought out a few years ago by the son of another old friend who died  a number of years ago and is still doing pretty good business even though it is not a chain. In fact it might be the best stocked store in the area. I don’t go there much anymore as there is really no need for me to go that far. Oh yeah, and Hobby Lobby at the south edge of town.

Edited July 2, 2018 by lmagna

[John Allen]

7 hours ago, lmagna said:

Then we have a Hobby Town

Lou,

Nice progress I believe it will turn out much better than what you perceive.

 

No such animal as a Hobby Shop, Hobby Lobby has a little bit of something and a whole lot of nothing, Hobby Town might have a couple of Constructo models some basic tools, paint, glues, etc. I asked the guy at the local one (I had found some 2mm brass rings 1 packet) when he would get more. He said that was it and when what meager accessories he had were sold that was it. He said he made more money on the R/C.  Model boating supplies took up to much space for a lower return.

 

I do understand the marketing aspect of these stores and it is to make money on profitable items. The last time I went in 2 employees and owner were grouped around a large Drone explaining to a customer how it worked, I asked for some help they said just a minute after 5 minutes there trying to sell this guy I walked out. I don't think they even knew I left.

My point after this long diatribe order on line get free shipping, no aggravation. Do not know but the big cities may have decent shops.

[lmagna]

3 hours ago, John Allen said:

the big cities may have decent shops.

Hi John

I think your experience is not limited to hobby shops these days. I think it happens in virtually any store you go into if you choose the right time and place. I think it has happened a little less in hobby shops around here, at least for me, as most of the hobby stores are kind of Ma and Pa types of establishments and #1 they want to stay in business. #2 they tend to hire people who have some knowledge about the hobby. And #3 they realize that customer relations and service are a good way to achieve #1. Unfortunately getting a shop to carry an extensive line of ship kits and parts is probably not going to happen outside of the plastic stuff available. Not all that many owners have the money to buy a large stock for what amounts to being an niche market and have tens of thousands of dollars of his capitol tied up in stock that moves every few years. You have to admit that this is not normally a fast moving hobby, (Unless you are Popeye). 

 

So I tend to buy local what I need if they have it and on line when they don't. I don't feel guilty for buying online or even buying from over seas if that is what it takes.

 

I do have a bad habit though of acting as my own hobby store and stocking kits, parts, and supplies for projects that i would like to build someday rather than take the chance that I may not be able to get them at my store, or even on line at the price I found when the time comes to actually need them. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Roger Pellett]

The term “fast” with regard to sailing ships is complicated and depended on the situation.  In light air it could relate to a vessel’s ability to ghost along.  In this case, a light small vessel with minimal wetted surface area could have an advantage over a large heavy frigate.  In heavy air the frigate with its much longer waterline length and greater stiffness allowing it to carry sail would give it an advantage.

 

Point of sail was also important. Small sloops and schooners could often sail closer to the wind than square riggers, so they were hard to catch if upwind of their larger prey.  On the other hand a small sloop chased off the wind in heavy air by a frigate would be in a dangerous situation.

 

Roger

[lmagna]

6 minutes ago, Roger Pellett said:

The term “fast” with regard to sailing ships is complicated

I agree Rodger.

 

For the most part I have been trying to use the term "fast" in regards to the fact that almost everyone who commanded the Providence/Katy commented about her speed.

 

I the case of John Paul Jones, he did not consider himself a master of the sloop rig and twice turned down the command of the Providence for this reason even though he desperately wanted a command of his own. So when he finally accepted command he relied heavily on one man who not only had experience on sloops but on the Providence in particular, John Rathbun. The combination of the two men and ship almost made them unbeatable. When they found themselves being overhauled by the Frigate Solebay, after trying everything they could think of to escape, Rathbun came up with the idea of making a sudden change of tack at the very last minute and evading the Frigate on the new bearing. This and a couple of other episodes in the life of the providence showed that she could be caught, (Although she never was).

 

The Lady Washington is considered to be a kind of sister ship to the Providence by some and while still rigged as a sloop, beat the Columbia not only around the horn, but to the Pacific Northwest by several weeks.

 

The Constitution was considered fast for her day but we all know how narrowly she escaped capture from the British fleet in light winds.

 

Thanks not only for dropping in but for the comments.   

[KenW]

I just checked in on your build of this odd shaped boat. 

Looks like you doing well so I think I will just follow along.

I enjoy reading the results of you historical research.

Cheers.

[lmagna]

Thanks for looking in Ken

 

How do you consider her odd shaped? In many respects she is still the same model you are building, even though I consider the AL Independence as just a larger scale model of the MS Sultana.

 

At this point all I have really done is remove the raised forecastle, lowered the main deck by 12 scale inches, and shortened the overall length to reflect what are considered the actual dimensions of the Providence. I admit that these dimensions are mostly based on a single painting, a couple of historic references and some research done on the late 1920s and the resulting models in several museums, but they are what I have. 

 

In most respects at this point she is intended to represent what some refer to as a "traditional" Rhode Island sloop with some possible concessions for both speed and firepower. Please feel free to correct me if I am in your opinion heading into Never never land. There is much that no one knows about this ship. I am trying to fill in the gaps as best as I can by using common period practice to come up with a more realistic concept than has been done with the present day replica Providence. I have tried to reason out and justify every step I have made so far.

 

I will be watching your build very closely and hopefully gain additional knowledge from what you do as well.