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Tjalle58

Thermopylae by Tjalle58 - Finished - Sergal - Scale 1:124

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Hi Denis. Again many good tips as usual. Thank you. Funny you mentioned black thread for the standing rigging, I was about to ask of that. I read it somewhere but on many pictures they don't use it. but it looks better so I have ordered it from Cornwall. I have done the topshroud on the fore mast but I will cut that off and use black thread instead. In the beginning I wanted to finish the model as soon as possible but I have realized that the look is more important so it will take the time it needs. I cut loose the deadeyes on one channel yesterday and tried the smaller ones on and it looks much better. I don't need to change channels though since they are long enough for the smaller deadeyes. At least that is what I am hoping for :) 

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good to hear you've made progress with the dead eyes....what size are you going to use?   due to the scale of this kit,  it is logical to go with something smaller than 5 mm.   spoken like a true modeler........don't settle for anything less than what will make YOU happy :) 

 

thread color is a personal taste really.......you've likely seen what I meant about the way companies gauge the diameter of their thread.  here is the stuff I use:

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a few folks use what is called EZ line.......there is enough stretch where you can have it taught,  but still loose enough that it won't distort the masts or yards.   this is important,  because if you rig the lines too tight,  it will bend them and make the ship look terrible.   I've mentioned this before {I don't mean to sound like a broken record} about how to find 'absolute zero'.   keeping the lines taught within this parameter will help to prevent other lines from fowling what is already done as well.   take a piece of the thread your using and hold it by both ends {doesn't have to be a big piece}.  while concentrating on it,  pull it so it is taught.....as taught as you can without snapping it.   slowly relieve the tension you've put on it,  until it goes limp....

....then pull it tight again and repeat.  do this as many times as you want,  to see what happens to the thread.   the point where it just begins to go limp is absolute zero.   you'll get an idea of how much tension the thread will handle,  before it distorts the masts and yards.  standing rigging should have more tension than running rigging...after all,  standing rigging is the support for the masts.  the natural order for taught-ness is stays,  shrouds,  and then running rigging..........to me,  the stays are the main supporters......the shrouds are too,  but can be slightly less,  and the running rigging have the least,  with the exception of those that have pulley assemblies.   what I mean by pulley assemblies,  are those that are of a pennant, two block configuration:

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there are many tutorials and books out there on the subject ;)    keep going,  your doing fine!

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I am going to use the deadeyes and chainplates that came with the kit. At first I thought they where too short but they will do. The deadeyes are 4mm but it's a huge difference. I have done one side and managed to brake two stroprings that goes round the deadeyes. I hope I can fix them otherwise I must try to order new ones from Sergal.

I ordered rigging thread from a shop in Germany, a swedish friend in this forum, Puckotred, recommended them so I will try it.

This evening I tried the anchors on and I totally agree with what you say in Popeys Pier, they are too big. I have to order smaller. Cornwall has 20 mm Amati anchors that are quite like the ones included.

Is it common that one need to replace parts with other? I had to order railing stanchions as well. Not that I'm complaining, just asking :) 

Edited by Tjalle58

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you'll find that some kit have parts that appear to be a little out of scale.  how the kit is designed,  and what the manufacturer keeps in stock as far as fittings go,  are just two of the factors.   if they had chosen to design this kit in a larger scale,  there wouldn't have been as much of an issue.  I also mentioned about the thickness of the plywood used to assemble the frame........they could have gauged it down to 1/8th and the construction of the frame would have been strong enough.  looking through the logs,  you'll see folks replacing parts for something that either more to scale,  or looks more like what would be seen on the actual vessel.

 

sounds like you've everything in hand  ;)   if you find smaller anchors,  let me know......20 mm was about the smallest I found too  ;) 

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The new dark brown trhread will look better than the old one so I have to change the topshroud that I allready made. But I think it's hard to get the deadyes in a a straight line so I modified Gary Brinkers  jig from his youtube tutorial. I hop it will work. Tips and tricks are welcomed :)

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something better would be to solder two pieces of wire together and fan them out at both ends,  bending them to fit into the top holes.   I took a picture of my little jig,  but I'd drive myself crazy trying to find it ;)    as long as you arrive with all the dead eyes having the same amount of spacing,  whatever method or jig you use will be fine.   I have my Thermopylae on the table.......but I haven't done anything yet.  I think it will be enough of an incentive to get the Nordzee finished and off the table........pretty sneaky,  huh!  :D 

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The first jig I used was worthless. Thae dead eyes just fell out from it all the time, thats why I thought I try this one. So far it is quite okay since I can adjust the pins to fit in the deadeye. I looked at Popeye's Pier but I couldn't find the picture of your jig, I thought I saw it there. Must have been somewhere else or another log.

Another very tricky part is to seize the shroud lines round the mast? 

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I am going for a weeks vacation in an hour. I will miss my modelling :) but I will bring my computer so I can follow this blog and hopefully read some more tips about seizing :) 

Enjoy your week, I will do that in Barcelona. Sagrada Familia is allready booked :) 

Edited by Tjalle58

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I like what I see and you are braver than I am I have only built the frame and yet to plank(Pride of Baltimore).I have the Thermopylae but in the old Revell plastic kit and why I looked in for hints there in the coming months. ;)

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8 hours ago, Javlin said:

I like what I see and you are braver than I am I have only built the frame and yet to plank(Pride of Baltimore).I have the Thermopylae but in the old Revell plastic kit and why I looked in for hints there in the coming months. ;)

Brave or maybe stupid :) This model is way out of my league. Last week I added Pride of Baltimore to my wishlist. Do you have a log on that one?

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19 hours ago, Tjalle58 said:

Brave or maybe stupid :) This model is way out of my league. Last week I added Pride of Baltimore to my wishlist. Do you have a log on that one?

No log just have the frames done and sanded ready for some planks.I am working a plastic kit of the USS America and got HISmodel decks on it and I have the Thermopylae in plastic going to get my feet wet with those as rigging goes. ;)

Edited by Javlin

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She's a good model but that scale is hard to work with, especially for a beginner. Having said that I say good on you and well done.

Here's the one I made, you might be able to get ideas from it even though it's behind glass and I don't have it anymore so can't take detailed pics.

1339349462_Defender90project245.jpg.45e77f00a592877c01349c242c79fe61.jpg

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javlin......you can get a lot of the same info from the Revell Cutty Sark .    these two models are clones........with a little research,  you can alter the model to look more like the Thermopylae.  here is a site that will give you a good idea.

 http://www.powerhousemuseum.com/collection/database/?irn=211834&img=132358

if you want to compare the instructions,  I've posted them here.

http://cuttysarkdrydock.wordpress.com/

 

looks like the Sergal kit Bedford :)   really nice looking model!   I quite agree with you......the scale of this model needs to have been made larger,  and definitely not a beginner's kit.   very nice looking model though when complete.

 

Edited by popeye the sailor

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Hi Forum Friends. It's been a while since I popped in here but I have been struggling with my Thermopylae :) The top shrouds are finished and I have started to prepare the booms. (Tying ratlines can be a little bit boring :) ). I have a question as usual. One boom is supposed to be hanging on a hook according to the instruction. My dilemma is: When I lift the boom with the inner halyards the boom will, of course, come off the hook. On the other hand I can start with the outer halyards (is halyard the right word?) to keep it down. How would you solve this?

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I also recieved the new smaller anchors and they look much better then those who came with the model. Denis, they are 20mm and i bought them from Cornwall. Maybe a bit too small actually but I will keep them.

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Edited by Tjalle58

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thanks Klas.....I mentioned that size....looks good :)    you may want to cement the stock in place though....it seems to have fallen  ;)    short of trying to bend the hook to capture the ring on the yard bracket,  you could cement it in place.    since the rigging is similar,  here is the halyard and lift diagram for the Revell Cutty Sark

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these yards are in the raised position,  so this is how the lifts will look when rigged.  I'd have to look at the Sergal diagrams to see how they have it,  but the lower topsail yard is a fixed yard.    it does sit on a pivot point so it can be moved by the braces.  it is held in place by a brace,  called a crane.  here is a picture of the assembly,  as shown in the Cutty diagrams:

1524174444_Cuttysheetpage3.thumb.jpg.8c4e8265bad2d613676c27760820b22a.jpg

this is a plastic kit.......but what this shows is important to note.   looking at the upper top sail yard,  you'll see that there are two locations for it.....one in the lowered and one in the raised position.   it gives you this choice the rest of the way up the mast for the other yards.  I just figured these might help you with the yard arrangement.   those are the lifts that your working with........the halyards are for the upper top sail yard,  the topgallant yard,  and the royal yard.  the main mast will be the same,  but there is also a sky sail yard in addition to the others.  

 

   but yea,  you could attach it with a bendable hook,  or create a U shaped brad {made from a piece of brass rod},  to fasten it to the mast.   I did order the brackets for these yards,  but I think they are too big......I'll have to try them and see.   once I cut the yards,  I should know more.  I hope I gave you an idea ;) 

Edited by popeye the sailor
added text

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Hi Denis! Thanks for the tips. I didn't think of cementing the stock so I will do that. I thimk I have to cement the yard in the hook but isn't it a strange construction? But when it is assembled noone will notice so I guess it.s going to be good. How are you doing with your Thermopylae? 

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the Revell instruction diagrams may not be totally correct,  but they are better than what Sergal shows.   in some cases,  rigging can become part of the ship's structure.   standing rigging sometimes acts as a basis for the running rigging.   say you have standing rigging that pulls a yard or mast in the downward direction.   it may distort the way the yard or mast should look.......that is,  until you add the lifts, which pull the yard back up to where it is supposed to be positioned.   this is one reason why this scale is so terrible for a ship of this type.........you can lose so much detail,  especially if one is not adept in working with such a small scale.   even the manufacturer of the kit leaves out so much.......they can leave the builder with so many questions,  like how things work,  for instance.   I'm sure that bracket assembly is a lot more intricate,  than Sergal shows.   some will insert a brass pin in the mast where the yard should go,  and then rig the jeers and halyards,  the lines that hoist the yard into position.   the lifts mainly keep the yard horizontal,  but are also used to position the yard as well.   now,  for this type of yard assembly and attachment,  of course the rigging is different,  having no halyard to rely on.  some folks can make the fittings and add the detail that missing........some can't.   to have an understanding of the part in question,  it's function,  and all that affects it,  is an important learning curve........once you know that,  you can better come up with a solution to any problem you encounter.  the more you dabble in the medium,  the more you will learn.   it will make you a better modeler :) 

 

as for my Thermopylae.......she is on my main table,  waiting for me to get busy on her.   I've been messing with a couple  other projects at the moment, but I've been ribbing myself to get the Nordzee finished and out of the way.

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I have the masts already assembled.......now to fit the brass on them and paint.   I want to try those fittings I got.......I hope they will work out OK.   if not,  I might look at cornwall and see what they have.   this model would be so much better if it was at a larger scale......UGH!    it's pretty sad too,  'cuz it's not a bad little kit.......it's just that Sergal didn't stay within the scale of the kit.   some of these parts are out of scale and don't work for the model.......anchors,  railings,  the lack of life boats,  are just a few of the misgivings.  for anyone who wants to try scratch building,  this kit would be perfect.  the itch to finish the Nordzee is becoming too much to bear........I hope I can find an opening to get her done very soon ;)    I had other ideas for the main table as well.

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sorry 'bout the picture.......I took it this morning after reading your post.   I was going to replace the Nordzee with one of three other projects......seen up above.   from left to right......#1  is the fishing boat from the Holiday Harbor project.......hoping it will turn out like another Andrea Gail.  #2  is the Half Moon {Halve Maen}......I'm almost at the rigging end of the project.  #3....and then there is the Trawler Syborn........so close to being finished,  it's scary!   I have been looking for the right life raft containers for the scale.  I was going to have a couple of life boats,  but there isn't too much of a stern deck....it may become too crowded.  hopefully,  I will find a quick end for that project.....it's only......what?.......four years in the making,  I think.

   life goes on here at Wenzel's Wharf.......I've been seeing a dentist,  taking care of a problem I should have dealt with earlier.  yesterday I had two more teeth removed and was fitted for dentures.  four more to go,  and then I will have false teeth  ;)   I feel pretty good since I started seeing this guy........due to some bad experiences,  I haven't seen a dentist in quite a while.   but it's time to take care of business.  I think that as this happens, I'll feel more myself and will want to spend more time at the tables {I have two........I'm a confirmed glutton for punishment}.

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Hi again :)

Wow Denis, that was much intersting to read. To start from the end: I allso had to replace a number teeth a while ago so I have five implants. Works perfect, you don't feel the difference :) 

 

This ship has really challenged my patience. It must be the first time a ship has been renovated I don't know how many times even before it has been built :) And as you say, there has been thousands of questions. I guess it is a bit easier if you have been working on ships so you allredy know the functions of everything but as you know, I have no experience. For instance my friend from this forum, Puckotred, used to work on a ship. He has given me a lot of good advices.

 

I have studied the instructions and compared with pictures, especially Cyril Hume's model. He has totally different sollutions than Sergal and I guess mine will be somewhere in between. I think I have a quite good understanding of all the halyards and lifts and stays now and their function.

Anyway, I'm on my way. The last change I had to do was the lower shroud. I had thread them wrong through the crosstree and assembled the deadeyes so I had tu cut out the platform in order to thread them right. Well well, I can almost say I built this ship twice. I think next model will be easier since I have learned a lot from this, especially about planning the work ahead.

 

How do you prepare your masts and yards? Do you assemble all the halyards and lifts before you assemble the the mast to the ship? I started with that on my foremast but I was afraid that the lines would be entangled. But it's a bit tighter when the mast is in place, isn't it?

We talked about jig for the deadeyes before. But i kept my jig and I think it works fine. You can see it in the picture.DSC00714.thumb.JPG.b61b91c73cca51f1273ba6ba963e030d.JPG

Have a nice day and weekend. I will continue updating this post when the foremast is finished :) 

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And one more (stupid) question :)

I read in Ship Modelling Simplified than one should never run rigging lines on the forward side of the yards. Correct me if I am wrong but that must mean that one has to be more careful than me when gluing the blocks to the yards?DSC00715.thumb.JPG.53dfaefd9987d22ee5f497baf62ba468.JPG

Obviously I must have done something wrong here but in this case I will run the lines on the forward side because this is going to be too ugly.

I must concider this ship as a learning object only, and try to make it as good as possible. But I will remeber everything when I build the next ship and be much more careful and plan ahead and all. Puh 😂 😬

 

Edited by Tjalle58

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Tying these stays between the foremast and Main mast through the rings in the deck and around the mast and tie together a little bit up. Wow, that was tricky but with a lot of patience and right tools I managed to fix it. I will repeat the same procedure between the Main mast ant the Mizzen mast but I can remove the main mast so that will be easier. My Good, this is fun :) 

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I wish you all a nice day, and please feel free to comment and make suggestions and advices. I need it :) 

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As I mentioned before this model is for learning. Now I have learned why I should wait with the shrouds until last :).

Now I am trying to tie the halyards around the belaying pins who are hidden behind the shrouds.

This is so tight so I don't believe it :) 

DSC00723.thumb.JPG.ca63eb548ea3d85fcda8ab955c240835.JPG

 

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yes.....it is a tight fit.......and it gets more interesting as you add more lines ;)   folks who build a lot of sailing vessels have special tools to work with, like long forceps and scissors.  I've even heard about using a needle threader for rigging the dead eyes and blocks {I still do it the hard way}.    when rigging blocks on the yards,  most decide the orientation of the yard,  and tie them so they will hang in the desired position.    heck,  I don't even know all the particulars yet....we're always learning.   you should do the standing rigging first,  since some of the running rigging is going to depend on it.

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Hi Denis! Interesting is the word :) I have this rigging tools, like crochet hooks and a tweezer and it´s actually working. But it is tricky. And challenging. I have to get the line in place and stretch it and then put a drop of super glue. After that I can continue with wrapping around the pin and glue again. So I guess I can do the shrouds on the mizzen mast before I do the running rigging.

On my next ship I will plan more carefully where to hang the blocks and direction and so on.

Speaking of next ship, I told you before that I have been "bitten by the bug" when you asked me. So I bought two halfbuilded ships this weekend, Vasa and Robert E Lee. So now I don't have to buy anything for two or three years :) .

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yea........orientation is everything.   most folks set the yards up on Styrofoam,  so they don't move,  others use the 'helping hands',  while others yet,  have alternative methods to arrest them.  using CA is particularly troubling,  due to it habit of soaking into the thread,  solidifying the thread very quickly.            one needs to be sure that the block is set in the direction of it's 'pull' when rigged,  before the cement is applied.   I use white glue as much as possible for this instead......makes re-positioning a little bit easier.  so........partially built,  eh.........two tickets for the dark side?!?! :)   you'll get plenty of scratch building experience,  depending on their condition....not to mention how complete they are ;)   you'll have fun though.......I started bash'in and scratch'in from my very first model.   there is a lot of info out there on the Vasa....and quite a few logs here on the site.   I also have a partially built Robert E Lee........just the hull and a few key parts.   I'm still up in the air as to what I'm gonna do with it........I may do a ferry....or maybe a 'what if' civil war battle ship.   either way,  it will be fun to do.

   I did notice that the studding sail booms on your lower yard will need re-positioning.  they should be oriented to the front of the yard,  in a slightly upward position.  just copy what you did with the upper topsail yard,  and you'll solve the problem. 

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It was a bit confusing how to orient the booms. On Cyril Hume´s picture it looks like they are under the yard and on the instruction and the pictures on the box it looks like the lower yard has the boom under and upper yards on the top. So I didn't really know how to put them :) Were they always oriented slightly upwards? I'll have to keep that in mind on the next ship.

Thanks for the input :) 

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that is the way they should look.......the studding sails sort of layer over the main sails,  since they are only used during a long voyage,  when more wind power would be needed.   on short jaunts,  they aren't used that much.   with the booms forward of the yard,  they won't interfere with the main sails either.   refer to the pictures of the Revell Cutty instruction sheets I posted.   when doing the running rigging,  keep in mind that the braces are backwards on the rigging diagram sheet.   the fore braces run aft towards the main mast,  the main braces run aft towards the mizzen mast,  and the mizzen run forward towards the main mast.  study the rigging sheet and you will get a sense of what I'm talking about  the rigging instructions for the Revell Cutty,  I believe isolates them for easy referral.......I'll check this out and post them if you'd like.

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Hi Denis! It would be great if you could would post the rigging instructions. I need all the help I can get so it would be perfect to study them.

Sadly enough there is nothing I can do about the lower booms since they are allready rigged so I'll just have to leave it like that :( 

Speaking of glue I have noticed that the CA soaks into the thread and it's impossible to make it look "clean". Isn't there a lot of waiting when you use white glue. But then again it will be worth it if it looks better. I will start to use that and see what differeence it makes. The mizzen mast is left to rig so it will be interesting. I thought it was strange when the instruction shows that the mizzen mast yards shall be tied the to the aft railing.

Do you have another smart sollution for that? :) 

 

I just found your link to the Cutty Sark rigging diagram so you don't have tp post it but thanks anyway :) 

I am studying it now and will continue doing so until I fully understand and remember everything :) 

 

Edited by Tjalle58

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It is better to ask question and let peolple think you are stupid than not to ask and continue to be stupid 😂

So here is my question. I have pulled the lines outside the crosstree but when I took a closer look I notice that if it was real those lines would have been very heavy to pull. What would you have done? Should the upper block be hanging outside the crosstree?

Nothing I can do about it now but for the next time :) 

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those are some neat tools..........I myself have very little to work with.  I mostly rely on tweezers.

 

what line is that for?   depending on what your rigging,  will dictate where it will terminate at.   the Revell diagrams are a good source to reference,  but do have their discrepancies.......but not as bad as the Sergal diagram.    some lines....lift,  clew,  and related,  will run through the tops {some even through the crosstree},  along the mast and to the deck,  where they will either be belayed at a ring of pins around the mast,  or at the fife rails.  your picture is what I refer to as a pulley assembly........they are usually rigged as a pendant {longer rope with the block at the end, that is clear from any obstructions}.  I'm thinking that this particular assembly is for the upper topsail yard lift............if this is the case,  it would have been better to have the assembly at the yard and use that block {at the crosstree}, to route the line down to the deck.   one thing to bear in mind as your rigging,  is to route the line, so it is not interfered with of rubbing on anything.  I know it's hard.........and it will get even harder as you add lines.   some will even terminate at the 'first step' top...........these will tie off at a railing or cleats.   due to the scale of the model,  it's almost impossible to add some of the more detailed lines,  so it's best to stick with the basic lines.....lifts,  sheet,  and maybe clew lines.   since your not doing sails.......don't bother with the bunt lines and leech lines.  I hope I'm correct here..........a bit difficult to describe........:blink:

 

good that you found the Cutty diagrams........I posted them with good reason.   these are the most lost or mislaid instructions in the modeling world!  I can't even count how many folks have downloaded those instructions.  I also have the instructions there for the U.S.S.United States 1:96.  have a look at those as well......some of the rigging is similar, even though they are different types of ships.  some of the line serve different purposes,  but the way the routing and assemblies look,  are all characteristically the same.   this reminds me.........now that I have the U.S.S.Constitution 1:96,  I should post the complete instruction sheets too ;) {thinking out loud}.

 

looking at the picture,  you can see where you used Ca to cement the ties..........it seeps away from where you applied it,  freezing the thread.  white glue won't do that or discolor the thread.  while it does take more time to dry,  you will never know that you used it.  flexibility of how you tied your blocks can turn out to be very important.........the blocks will conform to the tension you've assigned them to ;) 

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About the NRG

If you enjoy building ship models that are historically accurate as well as beautiful, then The Nautical Research Guild (NRG) is just right for you.

The Guild is a non-profit educational organization whose mission is to “Advance Ship Modeling Through Research”. We provide support to our members in their efforts to raise the quality of their model ships.

The Nautical Research Guild has published our world-renowned quarterly magazine, The Nautical Research Journal, since 1955. The pages of the Journal are full of articles by accomplished ship modelers who show you how they create those exquisite details on their models, and by maritime historians who show you the correct details to build. The Journal is available in both print and digital editions. Go to the NRG web site (www.thenrg.org) to download a complimentary digital copy of the Journal. The NRG also publishes plan sets, books and compilations of back issues of the Journal and the former Ships in Scale and Model Ship Builder magazines.

Our Emblem

Modelshipworld - Advancing Ship Modeling through Research
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