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SAINT PHILIPPE 1693 by Heinrich der Seefahrer - Heller - 1:100 - converted from Soleil Royale kit


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22 hours ago, Heinrich der Seefahrer said:

Further progress will be shown as soon as possible! 

IMG-20190427-WA0025.thumb.jpeg.3fe363895e26159a0fcc4552cdc5944a.jpeg

Glued together and now I have to use putty, more superglued bakingpowder and sandpaper. But I am really happy about the step foreward I did.

 

And the most important thing is - now it is starting to look like a ships hull.

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Hello friends,

 

for today the ship yard is

closing.

These were the results of today:

IMG-20190427-WA0028.thumb.jpeg.cc20afb044a748952ab886458e24e4ff.jpeg

The openings for the stand are free and niot closed by baking powder or decosand.

 

IMG-20190427-WA0029.thumb.jpeg.6b64b41bfc9f57e419f06c6a125877af.jpeg

Anybody is interested to get a view into the hulls inner parts. The runs inside are from the superglue.

IMG-20190427-WA0030.thumb.jpeg.c826733b568d906ea07e08000ee1804b.jpeg

The frontview shows me a very littel inconsistenty of the hulls halfs. The putty is only the very first masking and will be sanded mainly away in the next few days.

IMG-20190427-WA0037.thumb.jpeg.48f695bab274a9f4ec2507e3da5cef53.jpeg

The stern is to be fixed later on but the deadwood can be changed an the run of the hull too. So it is less problematic to add some thickness to the hull to bring it closer to SAINT PHILIPPEs lines what are clear. There is a very much shorter run aft than Heller gives to us till nearly half a century!

 

Tomorrow I want to start with my kangaroo stand to turn the hull upside down without harming the edges of the aft MD.

Edited by Heinrich der Seefahrer
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On 4/27/2019 at 9:14 PM, Heinrich der Seefahrer said:

 

Tomorrow I want to start with my kangaroo stand to turn the hull upside down without harming the edges of the aft MD.

That certainly doesn't happen... Murpheys Law was more workable.

 

So I will try to bring it to an end this evening and also try to get some solution for the 36pdr LD fixation in Particular in the middel of the deck has to be more support from below.

Edited by Heinrich der Seefahrer
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"something looks right, but other parts have to be added changed or rebuild"... I find myself saying this all the time.... 🙄

 

I don't think you are too far off on the profile. Maybe shallow the curve of the counter and soften the point at the top where the wale meets and stern and I think you will be set. :) 

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I@EJ_L Thanks a lot for the motivation... I really do need it! 

 

@Hubac's Historian

There are news for all of us - perchance it is a bit academic and rivet counting - but it is factum:

 

The above water bow of the Heller kit

IMG-20190504-WA0034.thumb.jpeg.7ee43f573fe8deaefa889ed82d263f59.jpeg

is too slim and does give a too frigat-inspired look to a bulky hull. So without doing some immense aggressive surgery to this region on both sides of the hull there will be no way to change it! So what I do is to leave it as it is given tous till over 40 years. 

 

LOVE IT OR LEAVE IT - 

USE IT OR SCRATCH IT.

 

So we left it as it is and by this we keep this bad news in mind (for the two other Heller kits) and leave this depressive moment behind us. Because there are three other very good news compared to this!

 

IMG-20190504-WA0026.thumb.jpeg.5692a146fa1493ef4dd91d3365078163.jpeg

So we do go to the 3/5 of the hulls lines that by adding 3mm to tje starboards side...

IMG-20190504-WA0028.thumb.jpeg.36fbdc256fbbdc80ade04e7f583666a9.jpeg

... do fit perfectly and run parallel with the SAINT PHILIPPEs 36pdr deck...

 

IMG-20190504-WA0027.thumb.jpeg.a9592ccc806f8b406db8d1820b41e592.jpeg

...and lucky me!👍 I've got nearly 1 3/4 inch overlength - and...

 

IMG-20190504-WA0028.thumb.jpeg.36fbdc256fbbdc80ade04e7f583666a9.jpeg

...this 44mm I can use to get the transoms transveral concave curve. 

 

So there is a game Heller kit

SOLEIL ROYAL vs SAINT PHILIPPE 1:3 - and the game does still go on!

 

IMG-20190504-WA0029.jpeg

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Next step barrel counting - let us compare kit "SR" and plan "SP" looking on the plan we get the half of the real numbers and have to add the aft and front fireing pices.

IMG-20190504-WA0040.thumb.jpeg.05c7fe99a74a70fb10d3b5f0c2cb8187.jpeg

So we pass along from stem...

 

IMG-20190504-WA0041.thumb.jpeg.e231436bf2436af07c612ef9fa82aba8.jpeg

...slowly counting a& comparing towards...

 

IMG-20190504-WA0042.thumb.jpeg.ce0776e8692347e020d138b2a4e21bad.jpeg

...the stern.

 

SR:

Poop- and Backdeck

7x12 pdr
over this on a short aft hutdeck 2x8pdr

 

SP:

only on a poop deck carries 3x12pdr

 

 

Rest is parallely* build:
UD 18pdr 13
MD 24pdr 14
LD 36pdr 14

 

SOLEIL ROYAL has 2x 41 = 82 
Plus 2x8 = 16 on poop-, back- und hutdeck 
Summery is 98 + 4x18pdr achtern  - and additivly 2 guns fiering tiowards the front = wunderly we can count 104 barrels at the very end of it.

 

SAINT PHILIPPE

2x 41=82 plus 6 on the poopdeck = 88 Rohre
due to this there were to integrate two further guns into the transom - so it is a 90-gun-ship.  

 

Two items I have to point out:

I. 

All the barrels aiming fore or after are usualy removed from the

IMG-20190504-WA0046.thumb.jpeg.952d37b0bc4f11b619662f2b0c1d54ac.jpeg

batterys side towards the other gunport.

 

II.as 

IMG-20190504-WA0048.thumb.jpeg.30152a87496beff9ac09fdff581a66eb.jpeg

this ink and watercolour drawing of her sister TONNARANT (?) suggests there only have been two aft gunports - bu they may be guided with guns all over the time. This due to the fact that there is enough space to handle battery and aft guns at the same time and compared to the 36pdrs- desks top view this may be right so without the hidden/integrated gunports in the transom**  

 

 

 

*that makes me using the hull.

** that seems doubtful to my by a leck of timber to hold the force of recoil out.

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Whatever Tanneron’s sources may have been, in developing the lines for his Soleil Royal, you can see that Heller pretty closely copied Tanneron, even in this regard:

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As you have mentioned, your false keel does improve the bluffness of the bow, with the added benefit that your widened hull now matches the SP’s beam, and the run of the rest of the hull.

 

Your hull is off to a smashing start, and I think your efforts will pay off handsomely, as the build progresses.

 

Is that engraving the Tonnerant?  I would love to know what ship that represents because the stern, in structure and outline is very similar to Berain’s re-design of SR.  The primary difference is that the upper stern balcony, at the quarter deck level, wraps to the quarter galleries.  Lemineur does not say what ship is represented, there.

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@Hubac's Historian

Hello Marc, I cannot proof it as 100%  - and still think it must be TONNERANT as there are no further guns in the aft part of the deck over the UD. But you are quite more familiar to the SR than I am. So hopefully you could figure out what name this ship is christianed to.

 

Here the text passage of page 9 and 10 of the SAINT PHILIPPE monography belonging to the wonderful

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contemporal pen and watercolour drawing

 

1557018077081-358736140.thumb.jpg.9a7fc285f77a8f007bcadad0ff23d988.jpg

1557018155555-56532790.thumb.jpg.320d6fa98578cdc1916faa54c12b818c.jpg

1557018209771-371747557.thumb.jpg.8dac7f1c0ea18aba63cf7e2ed1d320b7.jpg

There is no direct information of the TONNERANT as name - but as it also has no quaterdeck with guns it looks very similar to SP, so it may be the TONNERANT, SCEPTRE or LYS.

What do our specialist say?

 

Edited by Heinrich der Seefahrer
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Okay friends - lets come back to the usual criticism for grumpy old men geathering at the bar! ;)

 

I will have to figure out how the hell I can shorten this hull to a realistic length and relocate the hole gunports and nuts & bolts stuff on their point to be. But how to do this?

 

My idea is actually to

 

a)

to cut the world in pleasent und unpleasant items. ( This is the right moment to listen to "Tuba mirum spargens sonum..." 

 ...for those how like Mozart and those to whom he always was a honeysweet composer.)

 

aa)

enclose all the given "unpleasent gunports" in the thickness of the real frame and adding the frames thickness everywhere to the hull. (So I'll receive some single "pleasant gunpots" still as fixing stars on the then noman's land of plastic, putty and sanddust.)

 

b)

As yesterdays pictures make absolutely sure I am on the inner side of the hull on the right point of joining deck (a thick plank called waterway) and inner planking.

IMG-20190504-WA0051.thumb.jpeg.1d68b77ebf0207bddc8493665e8b3422.jpeg

So all the added detailing can - for God's sake - be added outside.

 

c)

And now Marc's great present of half a hull comes to its appearance. 

15570411348522118805142.thumb.jpg.98c3a90c0a7cbc4b42c9dfdc4411df91.jpg

At the moment it is resting in the book shelf  a more representative style of life and is awayting like an old filmstar her come-back (and will do her job when overworked and painted at my place in the office*). 

 

d)

I now have the proof of the shorter hull... 

1557043081683-820488593.thumb.jpg.76101e79199d2c4d2c24109cf774d314.jpg

Decks and  side view do a cooperative

15570433085751186139304.thumb.jpg.1f130299ce88d257c46dc6da45b03ce7.jpg

15570435979612087519762.thumb.jpg.a4b48c3abfcefc971a41b1c347c1748e.jpg

...and why this picture is so important? 

 

This is to Marc's quote about 7" above the head - the decks are too high... when I sized the bigger copy I dealt only with the hull as a measurement (a little group of French pupils were in there too - speaking with me about French baroque - and one was interested about the Heller SR-kit - mission completed). As the decks are now the proof of measurements the Hellers kit hull is suddenly too high!.

 

imageproxy.php?img=&key=8f45093723bba175imageproxy.php?img=&key=8f45093723bba175

Here the too large copy and the hull doesen'tfit on high

 

1557045219645469105423.thumb.jpg.9e5459c2e8cdab6136c380d4eed44b80.jpg

At the large drawing they do fit

 

155704539488476602586.thumb.jpg.56cd305d3753bd6d01208c46b68b8d90.jpg

Suiting to the decks and scale the don't do!

1557044252240-841480384.thumb.jpg.752a40367ebc41bbc1be6843b568ac76.jpg

Position of the kit matching copy and

 

15570445155501643713264.thumb.jpg.b9540d2a100d369d1dbe0dc0a14048f8.jpg

the positions of the gun ports

1557044332220-1967160059.thumb.jpg.141f007dfcc11b7aba2ff3fb94f95cf5.jpg

Same and so different to the measurement scaled copy.

 

So it will be my job not to stop this project but to decide what to do about this mess:

 

I. The noble scratchmodelers way to handle

The scratchbuilders all have to have some kind of lake in their workshop I have been told to burn&burial the misgoing project in the good old Viking way. This door is enclosed for me  - due to a missing of lakes.

 

II. The Mafia way to deal with it

sink that shitkit in an unseen moment in your neighbours dirtiest dustbin or burry it silently in a flat grave somewhere in the hills. (Send out some professionslal killers to eliminate all the guys that read this thread.)

 

III. The political way to undo the problem

I could try to rename the projects headline and reworking the articles to something like SCEPTRE or LYS. Some ship with very little information about - nobody will ever remark the differences. All questioners are corrupt - it is just a question of reprinting fresh bucks. Some brainless expensive thing to do if you have to be reelected some day.

 

IV. The hysteric way to rebuild

I could start to enclose all the gunports, remove all the wales, shortening the hull and relocating all the decks to their real point getting an absolutly right completely different hull in- and outside. Than I can restart the project with a highly fitting close to scratch standards built hull in some 25 years.

 

V.The pragmatic way to come to something

I may wrap the SAINT PHILIPPE plans as some  coat settlement onto the Heller hull by interpolation and stretching all the differences to something that looks fitting. Not the real thing but it will give some solution and at the very end hopefully any kind of hull model.

 

Hmmmm...

N° IV and V look right to me perchance I'll mix both up to something less time consuming and more than an any hull solution.

 

 

But from time to time I wish to fire this damned kit in some dramatic gesture out of some window in my sixed floor - but there is allways some insect netting in my way saving SP to become some airship!

 

So let us keep calm and keen to continue...

 

* as I'm known as the "analogous nerd"

15570445155501643713264.jpg

Edited by Heinrich der Seefahrer
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As some warning summary to all those that wish to copy my idea and try to rebuild some XVIIth century ship from the Heller SR hull - in particular the Ancre SAINT PHILIPPE.

 

The scale ist something between the ratio 1/100 up to 1/85.

 

+ The kit hull's breadth is the ony measurement that does fit - after adding 6mm.

 

IMG-20190504-WA0029.thumb.jpeg.7d89a4de386477ea612b6d027b66f313.jpeg

- the hull is too long

 

- the transom is flat not convex

 

- the decks height are too high

 

- the gunports are displaced

 

IMG-20190504-WA0034.thumb.jpeg.eae05aacee8419898476f509b54ac948.jpeg

- the hull is to slim in the front part

 

- the deck does go to the outside of the SPs hull (lower part of the picture above)

 

So as I invested too much time to stop here I'll go on but it is much less satisfying as I thought about this project. As it feels now as the ship turns into wheeling and dealing.

 

 

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4 hours ago, Heinrich der Seefahrer said:

 

II. The Mafia way to deal with it

... (Send out some professionslal killers to eliminate all the guys that read this thread.)

 

I just wish to point out that I have never read this thread, nor have I looked at any of the pictures. Whoever "liked" your posts using my log-in is a dirty rat. I'm going to hide now. Possibly in a mountain cabin. Or possibly somewhere else.

:cheers:

 

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These projects, I think, are comme-ci/comme-ca;  a bit like this and a bit like that.  To have fun at it, I think you have to accept compromise.

 

Perhaps, not worry so much about the length discrepancies, or height between deck discrepancies.  You can make some adjustments to the armament discrepancy, in order to get down closer to 90 guns; right out of the gate, you can lop off the forecastle deck, and remove the two guns from the poop - there’s a savings of 8, right there.

 

Remake the stern transoms and quarter galleries from scratch, in the image of the SP.  Create the diamond-hatch frieze of fleur-de-lis.  Incorporate the SP color scheme of red vermillion and yellow ocher.

 

Those changes, plus some alterations to the decks and furniture, plus a workable rig will, IMO yield a very reasonable impression of the SP.

 

That will all still be a lot of WORK, but it will produce a model that is greater than the mere sum of Heller SR parts, I think.  All of this, of course, is up to you and what you want to do.

 

My thinking was always that just having the kit shells, no matter how flawed they might be, was a tremendous time saver, when compared to making a hull from scratch.

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Thanks Marc for your kind words. I do follow the track to build the SP - but I do need some more success and all these theoretically genial projects do not bring me so much foreward as I would like to come to.

So I will go further on and do some scratchbuilding beside to get a second place I'm completly responsible for anything.

 

Give me some time to find some smart solutions and some new motivation. 

 

16 minutes ago, Hubac's Historian said:

 

That will all still be a lot of WORK, but it will produce a model that is greater than the mere sum of Heller SR parts, I think.

That is the real reason you figured it out precisely, Marc!

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As for the pen and wash drawing, the Tonant, Scepter and Lys were all Toulon built ships.  Although their armament roughly corresponds with the likely armament shown, the caption references Rochefort.

 

So, I think it is more probable that the ship represented here could be either the Fier (1694, 94 guns), the Fulminant (1691, 98 guns), or the Magnifique (1693, 88 guns); all Rochefort-built ships.

 

Because the style of ornamentation is clearly Jean Berain, the ship in question would certainly have been built somewhere from 1689, or ahortly there-after.

 

There are probably clues to be had in the iconography of the Tafferal, if anyone out there is well-versed enough in Greco-Roman lore to make any connections, there.

 

I am going to guess that it’s the Magnifique because of the absence of an armed forecastle, and poop, thus making for a lighter armament, overall.  Also, the resemblance to SR’s re-designed stern is pretty magnificent, and it would see reasonable that Berain would incorporate the general parameters of this stern, which were so successful on SR, to another ship.

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21 minutes ago, druxey said:

Oh, my! It seems (and this may be total heresy) easier to start a scratch built hull than wrestle the plastic kit to the ground! My sympathy at your dilemma, HH.

There is some graph of benefits of scratch and kit building and the seem to cross each othe right now.

 

But I am not willing to stop that kit rebuild just aggressive and frustrated.

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I am going to agree with Marc in that, just allow fr some structural compromise in the hull and continue onward. Make the changes that can be made "easily" and you will end up with a reasonable approximation of the ship. When you are done, if it truly annoys you, use it as a guideline for a complete scratch build. In any case, I think you are well on your way to having a well built model that will be enjoyed by and educate many.

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Yeah, I have to also agree with EJ, in that these modification builds are primarily useful as mock-ups, for the real thing.  Soleil Royal’s stern and quarters are immensely complex, and there will need to be some reconciliation between the known Berain stern drawing and the Vary/Compardelle quarters, which present some grey areas of interpretation.

 

I’d rather play with all of that on a plastic model - scrap an attempt, if it isn’t working - than to commit to a course, in wood, without a clear idea of how it is all going to work out.  I can mostly see it in my mind’s-eye, but....

 

Once the mock-up is done, which will be a good model in its own right, I would go ahead and draft plans for the full scratch-build.

Edited by Hubac's Historian
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  • 3 weeks later...

Thanks Marc,

I think there are a pile of discussions to be made - even with those starting SAINT PHILIPPE as a 1/24 scratch project. Sometimes I do think I want too much to of this old Heller kit. Am I overstreching its abilities?

 

 

I amv still thinking about solutions. There are a plenty of thinks I could start to do. But I have to install the planked decks first - before starting the shells' planking  . This due to stability reasons . Also it is nonsense to start the fiddely work of the transoms inside work before the hull is planked. But my bigges graft in the number of these bottlenecksIMG-20190521-WA0006.thumb.jpeg.83a0da90a14998d4ebd53085232c24f4.jpeg

are the decks -

 

IMG-20190521-WA0004.thumb.jpeg.28bb98fb414c90ebc9dc651efed87c47.jpeg

in particular the LD. And I do not want to trimm them in anyway untill I am shure it's

 

IMG-20190521-WA0000.thumb.jpeg.a7f74ebce0ce934220a20fbf928bd2ed.jpeg

the dreck that is wrong and not me.

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You could stabilize the hull with temporary wood beams. They would give you the rigid structure to allow for further hull work and can be removed later when you are ready to work on the decks.

 

For the decks themselves, I would use a piece of stiff paper, card stock, or similar material that you can trim to fit and see what looks right to get everything correct. Then simply use that for a template to trim the plastic decks as needed. The lower deck has the advantage in that nearly all of it will never be seen and so any errors, especially along the hull, will never be known to anyone but you. 

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  • 3 weeks later...

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