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Gunport framing and planking question


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I’m at the stage in my La Renommee build where I need to think about the gunports.  I’ve completed the first planking, and will add not only a outside hull planking but an inner hull/bulwark planking as well.

 

The question I had was on how the inner hull planking lines up with the port stops.  TFFM says that the upper edge of the spirketting lines up at the same level as the tops of the lower sill stops, and that the quickwork is flush to the inner sides of the stops at the sides of the port.  Zu Mondfeld’s picture doesn’t show the quickwork, but suggests the upper edge of the spirketting lines up with the bottom edge of the lower sill stop.

 

I’m assuming TFFM is correct, so was thinking my construction sequence would be as follows:

 

1.  Cut out gunports with an extra 3-4mm or so per side to account for gunport frames with sills using 1.5-2mm material. 

 

2.  Add the gunport frames, and sand them back to contours of outer and inner hull curvature so they line up flush on both sides of the first planking.

 

3.  For the inner hull planking, run the planks so that the sills are overlapped (planking runs to edge of inner edge of sills).

 

4.  For the outer hull planking, run the planks so they only slightly overlap the port frames to end up with the port sills equal to that on the plans.

 

Does this seem like a reasonable approach?  If zu Mondfeld was correct, I would probably change things be planking the inner hull planking first, then cut out the gunports, then finish with the outer hull planking.  I’m hoping TFFM is correct because I think the construction process will be a lot easier and cleaner in the end.

 

Thank you in advance for any advice.  Merry Christmas and Happy 2019 to all my friends on here!

Mike

 

Current Wooden builds:  Amati/Victory Pegasus  MS Charles W. Morgan  Euromodel La Renommèe  

 

Plastic builds:    SB2U-1 Vindicator 1/48  Five Star Yaeyama 1/700  Pit Road Asashio and Akashi 1/700 diorama  Walrus 1/48 and Albatross 1/700  Special Hobby Buffalo 1/32  Eduard Sikorsky JRS-1 1/72  IJN Notoro 1/700  Akitsu Maru 1/700

 

Completed builds :  Caldercraft Brig Badger   Amati Hannah - Ship in Bottle  Pit Road Hatsuzakura 1/700   Hasegawa Shimakaze 1:350

F4B-4 and P-6E 1/72  Accurate Miniatures F3F-1/F3F-2 1/48  Tamiya F4F-4 Wildcat built as FM-1 1/48  Special Hobby Buffalo 1/48

Citroen 2CV 1/24 - Airfix and Tamiya  Entex Morgan 3-wheeler 1/16

 

Terminated build:  HMS Lyme (based on Corel Unicorn)  

 

On the shelf:  Euromodel Friedrich Wilhelm zu Pferde; Caldercraft Victory; too many plastic ship, plane and car kits

 

Future potential scratch builds:  HMS Lyme (from NMM plans); Le Gros Ventre (from Ancre monographs), Dutch ship from Ab Hoving book, HMS Sussex from McCardle book, Philadelphia gunboat (Smithsonian plans)

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Mike,

I daresay (and I'm someone will correct me) that TFFM will not help much as your ship is a) French and b) from an earlier period. Not all French frigates did have did have fixed (hinged) port lids.  I've looked through ANCRE's History of the French Frigate 1650-1850 and there is a section on the La Renommee.  I appears that there there were no hinged lids and that the lining only at the top and bottom of each port and covered by the inner and outer hull planking thus, no port stops.  The planking at the sides would be flush with the port opening and the sides of the port are the framing.  I'd like to think I got it right on Licorne but I'm not 100% sure.

 

Then again, maybe I misunderstood the question..... 

Mark
"The shipwright is slow, but the wood is patient." - me

Current Build:                                                                                             
Past Builds:
 La Belle Poule 1765 - French Frigate from ANCRE plans - ON HOLD           Triton Cross-Section   

 NRG Hallf Hull Planking Kit                                                                            HMS Sphinx 1775 - Vanguard Models - 1:64               

 

Non-Ship Model:                                                                                         On hold, maybe forever:           

CH-53 Sikorsky - 1:48 - Revell - Completed                                                   Licorne - 1755 from Hahn Plans (Scratch) Version 2.0 (Abandoned)         

         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                

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ren2.jpg.a20605d813068eaf2559816885e6c9da.jpg

 

From the ANCRE monograph for the actual Renommee 1744

 

 

ren3.jpg.a91d3c8112b7ddfd4b908d4772e1582f.jpg

 

 

I do not see lids either.   note, the port sill inside overlaps the inner planking a bit and

remember - the sill and lentil are parallel to the deck at its location, not horizontal

Edited by Jaager

NRG member 45 years

 

Current:  

HMS Centurion 1732 - 60-gun 4th rate - Navall Timber framing

HMS Beagle 1831 refiit  10-gun brig with a small mizzen - Navall (ish) Timber framing

The U.S. Ex. Ex. 1838-1842
Flying Fish 1838  pilot schooner -  framed - ready for stern timbers
Porpose II  1836  brigantine/brig - framed - ready for hawse and stern timbers
Vincennes  1825  Sloop-of-War  -  timbers assembled, need shaping
Peacock  1828  Sloop-of -War  -  timbers ready for assembly
Sea Gull  1838  pilot schooner -  timbers ready for assembly
Relief  1835  ship - timbers ready for assembly

Other

Portsmouth  1843  Sloop-of-War  -  timbers ready for assembly
Le Commerce de Marseilles  1788   118 cannons - framed

La Renommee 1744 Frigate - framed - ready for hawse and stern timbers

 

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Thanks guys, really appreciate the help.  So, I'm still not quite convinced that the ship represented by the kit is French (I have an extensive discussion about this on my build log).  It clearly is taken from Chapman's Architectura (Plates 31 and 32), but there has been some research that Admiral Paris in his book miswrote a description and mistakenly ascribed the Chapman drawings to the French ship La Renommee.  It clearly is a different ship from the one in the Ancre monograph (the dates also don't line up).  My guess (and others as well, including zu Mondfeld) is that it is a Swedish ship as it shares many of the same design elements as Chapman's Venus:

 

Swedish_frigate_Venus_(1783)-schematics.jpg.742386dfdce2b975a69ebe82de0dbdea.jpg

 

1373533156_Venuspainting.jpg.da3f3616aaf4d3d6737f3a3e03851106.jpg

 

Looking at the Venus, there are gunport lids.  The kit plans show gunport lids, and I took a look at a number of other builders of the Euromodel kit (or builders off its plans), and every one includes lids except for the one from Kenji Nakajima interestingly:

 

https://www.euromodel-ship.com/eng/la-renommee-2.html

 

 Not sure if this is dispositive, but Chapman plate 32 shows the bridle ports with closed lids - does that mean if the bridle ports had lids, the rest of the gunport did as well?

 

2035389179_ChapmanDrawing.thumb.jpeg.1ecd801b0c59b16960a0b90b34fcbe08.jpeg

 

So, I'm not exactly sure what to do.  I'm leanings towards adding lids I suppose given that Chapman's Venus plans clearly show lids.  If a ship did have lids, I imagine there would need to be a sill?

 

 

 

Edited by Landlubber Mike

Mike

 

Current Wooden builds:  Amati/Victory Pegasus  MS Charles W. Morgan  Euromodel La Renommèe  

 

Plastic builds:    SB2U-1 Vindicator 1/48  Five Star Yaeyama 1/700  Pit Road Asashio and Akashi 1/700 diorama  Walrus 1/48 and Albatross 1/700  Special Hobby Buffalo 1/32  Eduard Sikorsky JRS-1 1/72  IJN Notoro 1/700  Akitsu Maru 1/700

 

Completed builds :  Caldercraft Brig Badger   Amati Hannah - Ship in Bottle  Pit Road Hatsuzakura 1/700   Hasegawa Shimakaze 1:350

F4B-4 and P-6E 1/72  Accurate Miniatures F3F-1/F3F-2 1/48  Tamiya F4F-4 Wildcat built as FM-1 1/48  Special Hobby Buffalo 1/48

Citroen 2CV 1/24 - Airfix and Tamiya  Entex Morgan 3-wheeler 1/16

 

Terminated build:  HMS Lyme (based on Corel Unicorn)  

 

On the shelf:  Euromodel Friedrich Wilhelm zu Pferde; Caldercraft Victory; too many plastic ship, plane and car kits

 

Future potential scratch builds:  HMS Lyme (from NMM plans); Le Gros Ventre (from Ancre monographs), Dutch ship from Ab Hoving book, HMS Sussex from McCardle book, Philadelphia gunboat (Smithsonian plans)

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The bridle port lids is/was what many (but not all) of the French 8 and 12 pounder frigates had even if the rest of the ports did not.  Licorne (8 pounder) didn't, but other 8 pounders did.  Belle Poule did have the bridle port lid only.

 

France didn't really build like the Brits did in that there was more than one (for lack of a better word) designer.  Plus they were constantly testing, modifying and reworking ships.  For example, Licorne doesn't have the masting (sizes of the masts and yards) of most 8 pounders.  It has the masting/yards dimension of La Venus, an 18 pounder of 1782.  Apparently, the masting change came during Licorne's rebuild or there after.   The Brits were more uniform in their building methods such that except for minor changes (mostly although some were much different) all the ships of a given class followed the lead ship in furniture, rigging, etc.  

 

If what you're saying is true about the mixup in plans, then go with the kit.  Nothing really lost there. The problem with older company's kits is the lack of research and marketing pressures at the time.  We know that AL's Constellation isn't the Revolutionary War ship that they advertise but the hull dimensions are the from 1855 sloop.  The guns, etc. were from the fiction when the ship was moved and fitted out as the museum ship in Baltimore.

 

Go with what you think is best.  If you decide to keep it as the kit, that works.  If you feel ambitious, figure out which one it actually is and build it as that ship.  You're the captain here. Go with what you feel good about.   

Mark
"The shipwright is slow, but the wood is patient." - me

Current Build:                                                                                             
Past Builds:
 La Belle Poule 1765 - French Frigate from ANCRE plans - ON HOLD           Triton Cross-Section   

 NRG Hallf Hull Planking Kit                                                                            HMS Sphinx 1775 - Vanguard Models - 1:64               

 

Non-Ship Model:                                                                                         On hold, maybe forever:           

CH-53 Sikorsky - 1:48 - Revell - Completed                                                   Licorne - 1755 from Hahn Plans (Scratch) Version 2.0 (Abandoned)         

         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                

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Thanks guys.  So assuming I go with the lids, is it more correct to go the TFFM way of planking the inner hull (where the planking covers the edges of the port sills) or zu Mondfeld?  The cleanest I think would be the TFFM way, so that's what I was planning but open to doing it differently if there's a more correct way.

 

Reason why I'm asking is that under the TFFM way, I'd line the gunport now after the first planking.  Under zu Mondfeld, I'd have to run the second inner hull planking, then cut the gunport.

 

Thanks!

Mike

 

Current Wooden builds:  Amati/Victory Pegasus  MS Charles W. Morgan  Euromodel La Renommèe  

 

Plastic builds:    SB2U-1 Vindicator 1/48  Five Star Yaeyama 1/700  Pit Road Asashio and Akashi 1/700 diorama  Walrus 1/48 and Albatross 1/700  Special Hobby Buffalo 1/32  Eduard Sikorsky JRS-1 1/72  IJN Notoro 1/700  Akitsu Maru 1/700

 

Completed builds :  Caldercraft Brig Badger   Amati Hannah - Ship in Bottle  Pit Road Hatsuzakura 1/700   Hasegawa Shimakaze 1:350

F4B-4 and P-6E 1/72  Accurate Miniatures F3F-1/F3F-2 1/48  Tamiya F4F-4 Wildcat built as FM-1 1/48  Special Hobby Buffalo 1/48

Citroen 2CV 1/24 - Airfix and Tamiya  Entex Morgan 3-wheeler 1/16

 

Terminated build:  HMS Lyme (based on Corel Unicorn)  

 

On the shelf:  Euromodel Friedrich Wilhelm zu Pferde; Caldercraft Victory; too many plastic ship, plane and car kits

 

Future potential scratch builds:  HMS Lyme (from NMM plans); Le Gros Ventre (from Ancre monographs), Dutch ship from Ab Hoving book, HMS Sussex from McCardle book, Philadelphia gunboat (Smithsonian plans)

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