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Zeehaen by flying_dutchman2 - 1:37.5 - Dutch Fluit - from Dutch Explorer Abel J. Tasman

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Ab, 

I am never ashamed of redoing a model. With building the Utrecht, I got it right after the third try. I was continually having problems with the stern. Seems that is where I always have a problem with. Same with the Boyer.

I also appreciate your constructive criticism and you show this with pictures.

I think it is safe to say that you are the only modeler on MSW that has built several Fluits and I am in the process of building one. So I rely on you, Jan and a few other Dutch people to give me advice. 

Marcus 

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10 hours ago, amateur said:

When you are goung to rip the planking off between frames 5-10, is there any way to ensure that although offf-center, the stern will be vertical? 

Jan, 

Possibly, but then I need to start at frame 30 and remove a lot more. 

The main reason why it is off is that the planking starting from frame 30 going to frame 5 is bent/bowed towards the outside. Don't really know how this happened because before the planking was installed all the frames were nice and even. 

Marcus 

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16 minutes ago, Roger Pellett said:

Am I correct that the oval piece surrounding the rudder port, yellow in the 3D rendering is actually a structural member tying the upper and lower hull sections together?

 

Roger

Roger, 

Seems to me but Ab would be a better judge of that as he has built several Fluits in his lifetime. 

Marcus 

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8 hours ago, Roger Pellett said:

Am I correct that the oval piece surrounding the rudder port, yellow in the 3D rendering is actually a structural member tying the upper and lower hull sections together?

 

Roger

 

No, I would not call it a structural member in a way that it supports or connects other parts, but it sure has more functions than a decorative one only. It covers the cross-cut ends of the planking, and it adds to a more structural look of the situation there.

182412-1393675472-45cb47a6cb70ee04045bd10061319674.jpg.f23b90e3e8bcf2420a951326de6cfd9f.jpg

We see that in other places too, for instance in the elaborate stern and quarter gallery decoration of the big ships of the era. Here the large horizontal deviders are being supported by many carved figurines, giving much strength to the whole structure.

413850539_gouda2.jpg.e294ddca9310775ec2f1baeb9179ae66.jpg

But without all these decorations the ships are absolutely capable of doing what they were built for.

 

Does that answer your question?

 

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Great work markus. 

Very interesting build.

 

A question to Ab
This plan is included in the book  "Risse von schiffen des 16. und 17 jahrhunderts"
If I look at the plans of Golden Hind that are also included, they don't look really reliable.
Am I right?

IMG_20191222_132541.thumb.jpg.6da0499d85fb56b4aa483251489aed73.jpgIMG_20191222_132501.thumb.jpg.7d35ab4b9013369c935bf6ba16fbcaba.jpg

 

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Patrick, do yourself a favor and throw that book into the dustbin. There is nothing in it that has any relationship with real Dutch ships. It was published way back in 1969 by a group of German people who had not the faintest idea what Dutch shipbuilding was all about. In those days it might have been worthwhile, but nowadays the best thing I can say about it is that it is hopelessly obsolete. And I am withholding myself. 🙂

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3 hours ago, Ab Hoving said:

Patrick, do yourself a favor and throw that book into the dustbin. There is nothing in it that has any relationship with real Dutch ships. It was published way back in 1969 by a group of German people who had not the faintest idea what Dutch shipbuilding was all about. In those days it might have been worthwhile, but nowadays the best thing I can say about it is that it is hopelessly obsolete. And I am withholding myself. 🙂

Ab,

Then we have the same opinion about this book ;)

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Ok, so the oval member is what American Shipwrights would call a Fashion Piece as its primary function was to protect the end grain of planking from absorbing moisture?

 

So what actually supports the stern structure other than the topside planking?

 

Roger

Edited by Roger Pellett

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Not very much.

Of course there are vertical timbers connecting the planks and other timbers to which the planking of the taffrail is nailed. There must also have been small knees to connect side and stern and there were a few decks with their clamps and beams. All together they kept each other in place.

I don't know if you have seen the pictures of the 'Ghost ship' in the Baltics. The one with the upwards staring knight heads. When the ship hit the seabed at 120 meters the mizzen mast fell backwards, destroying the whole after structure....except the sides. They still stand straight.

Unknown-1.jpeg.04e40c423c5b93957ec94f4e1a2e5e10.jpeg Unknown.jpeg.1799f792bbdaf7aafacc2841b2aa6ec7.jpeg

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Drastic re-do. 

I have started removing the planking in between frame 5 and 10 on both sides and the side where the overall planking leans too much outward between frames 5,10,15, and 20. I may just go further to frame 25, 30 and 35.

Have to do this slowly as I don't want to rip it too fast as I may break something I don't want to. 

1917898008_FluitZeehaendrasticre-do1.thumb.jpg.ee126da4d6e833278f2b9a82a9f019dc.jpg

2122449770_FluitZeehaendrasticre-do2.jpg.a18484571f64bcdc712244f3af4e3be9.jpg

2081784164_FluitZeehaendrasticre-do3.thumb.jpg.d8819c6586c73ac018591d448bca8bd7.jpg

I will probably cut the frames as well and install new ones. It would then be easier to plank. 

 

I looked at all the pictures I have from Fluits and on some have there planking stop just above the stem and some show the planking a little further out of the end of the rudder. 

 

Marcus 

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I love this build log because of its subject and I hope this build will succeed.  I find this type of ship deserves more attention from the community.  There used to be 2 kits of ships of this type, one of them was the Derrflinger but the makers recently went out of business.  And then there is the Baleinera Olandese by Sergal, which is based, I think, on a model from the Maritime Museum in Rotterdam.

 

Now, on the site of ship models from Recklinghausen, there is a series of pics from the Zeehaen, and for sure, she is a beautiful ship, and looks better than the two aforementioned models.  Let me hope that one of the Dutch modellers who follow this thread would pass on the idea to Kolderstock models!!!  And while I speak of Kolderstock, he really should contact Doris, the builder of the Royal Katherine, and ask her to make the moulds for his models.

 

Personnally, I have been building my interpretation of the Sergal model, based on the paintings of Dutch whalers at work.  One of the tricks I used to help follow the intricate curves of the hull was to use narrower planks for the second planking.  I made a simple jig to cut the 4mm planks in 2, as the 2mm resulting planks were much easier to bend laterally.

 

I wish you to succeed with this build.

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I admire your tenacity sir!  I take my hat off to you.  It makes me scold  myself for my inner whining when I consider my rework troubles and repairs I need to do and keep putting off in order to move forward on my POB II.

Edited by Blue Pilot

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Jean-Pierre, 

Thanks for the compliment and I Will succeed in building the Zeehaen. 

I've seen the whaler from Sergal. I think Kolderstok is going to do a Fluit. They just finished the jacht of Willem Barentsz. 

Marcus 

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I certainly look forward to your progress, Marcus. Your success in this project will be an outstanding achievement.

 

How did you get the information about Kolderstok preparing a flute ship?  Great news indeed!  Do you know this gentleman? He surely is filling a gap in the market, and his kits look fantastic, except for the sculptures, for which he himself admits that they can be improved.

A great idea for him would be to find an agreement with Doris (see build log Royal Katherine) to either have her make the moulds for his kits, or to allow her to market some aftermarket upgrade kits!  Let's dream🙄

 

You know

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Did not do anything on the Fluit for about a week. Stared at the area that has to be changed. I measured and remeasured the area over and over. Did make a brass template

1742084198_FluitZeehaendrasticre-do06.thumb.jpg.117572d259c9b597da5063478249cace.jpgto make sure that I end up in a point behind the rudder

1001531143_FluitZeehaendrasticre-do07.thumb.jpg.13d56f7bdac7975b1ff41220f74c935d.jpg

and that the angle of the railings are correct. 

1527726841_FluitZeehaendrasticre-do08.thumb.jpg.28b89474f213e6f8c0b8c0178c7a9a35.jpg

 

So today removed not just the planking but also part of the bulkheads (no. 5, 10, 15) on the stern. I still need to remove the planking from bulkhead 20 and 25 and replace with new planking which will cover from bulkhead 25 to 5 for both sides. 

506909567_FluitZeehaendrasticre-do04.thumb.jpg.87256905ad516983af69294fa8ad51ac.jpg

467472316_FluitZeehaendrasticre-do05.thumb.jpg.bbcde2cae5c591b0dc6f1d6acc04a0b9.jpg

 

This area will be sanded flat. 

Where the bulkheads have been removed I will replace with new pieces of bulkheads, which I need to cut out with the Scroll Saw. 

 

I have been working very slow on this. 

Marcus 

 

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Helo Marcus,

 

I don't think this method will lead you to the desired result. The lines don't end in a sharp angle.

May I suggest a different approach?

Screw a firm batten to the back of the sternpost and attach a taffrail-shaped temporary mould to its front side. You can pick the shape from the draught. Then work with flexible battens of 4 x 4 mm following the sheer of the hull. Start them at least from the midship area and attach them to the taffrail mould. Make sure they follow a natural curve. If necessary help them a bit by shaping the battens. If all is set in a satisfactory way take the shape of your top timbers from the inside of the battens.

Maybe this clumbsy sketch makes things a bit clearer.

1987891737_Scan1.jpeg.65cc67d1fdcaab5616d9d1a914e953f3.jpeg

 

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Hi Ab, 

Thank you very much for this suggestion. The sketch is very helpful and I am implementing this. 

 

I tried a 4mm by 4mm batten and it isn't that flexible. 1mm by 4mm is better. 

 

Let me start working on this template. 

 

Marcus 

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Here is my batten screwed into the back of the sternpost with a temp. Taffrail-shaped mould. 

670759505_FluitZeehaensternre-do1.thumb.jpg.218f0289f261f09e9ea789135133e09e.jpg

My somewhat stiff but still flexible battens are 2mm by 2mm square dowels of basswood (it is what I have handy) which I will use.

Other material I am experimenting to use is 2-ply, 1.5mm thick maple veneer. 

Marcus 

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Call them what you want. You want to complete the missing parts of the top timbers and find their shapes. You can do that by making molds, for instance from card that you fit and adjust  to the inside of the flexible battens until you have found the right shape of every missing part.

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I did a dry run of the shape of the re-do area. I like to get a visual of it all before anything becomes permanent. It looks so much more like a Fluit. 

2118075078_FluitZeehaenre-do7.thumb.jpg.22c39e6addbfed8a24eb83b3062c60bf.jpg

1052751621_FluitZeehaenre-do6.thumb.jpg.5b1e6e9e04a7444a1c96a8266c725720.jpg

This time the temporary planks end up in the middle of the ship compared to last time. 

1534054413_FluitZeehaenre-do8.thumb.jpg.fcdfee36fd9be429c84398163bad5d54.jpg

Next I will remove all the planks and and use the battens to follow the natural curve of the ship. 

I created lots of molds from scrap wood and I have also made molds from card. They will be fitted and sanded to shape to fit the missing pieces. 

Marcus 

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