Newbie paint questions...

[CPDDET]

It won't be long before I begin to paint parts of my Bluenose. I purchased Model Shipways arcylic paint kit for the model and plan on using brushes.

 

I have no idea of what type / quality of brushes to purchase. 

 

Should the paint be thinned? If so, how?

It seems very thick to me. I assume it's water base paint?

 

Should the wood be sealed before painting? If so, with what?

 

The hull already has a couple coats of wipe on poly. Will my paint stick to that? Do I need to use primer over the poly?

 

I really need some help with painting basics.

 

Thanks in advance for your advice/ instructions.

 

Dave

[GrandpaPhil]

I personally like Delta Ceramcoat paints.  They have a nice clearcoat that I use to seal wood models.

 

For brushes, I buy the mid grade craft paint brushes at Hobby Lobby and that works for the majority of my painting.  For tiny details (and figures) I like the Army Painter paint brushes.

 

A couple of good round brushes, for general painting, along with a couple of flat brushes for dry brushing, will get you a long way.

 

For painting ships, painters tape is your friend.

[Bob Cleek]

A selection of decent quality brushes is sufficient. Learn to keep them properly cleaned after use and they'll last a long time. If you are using "water-based" acrylics, buy synthetic bristle bushes. If using oil-based paints, use a natural bristle brush for the best results.  

 

I don't know whether your acrylic paints thin with water or alcohol. That you'll have to find out, or perhaps somebody in here knows. Although I very much prefer old fashioned oil based paints, with acrylics I always look for the type that can be thinned with alcohol. Alcohol evaporates much, much faster than water.. This is an advantage whether one is using a brush or an air brush. Most all paint used for modeling needs "conditioning" as the professional painters call it. That is, it has to be properly thinned and "conditioners" added... or that's how it goes with oil paints... a bit of turpentine here, a bit of Japan drier there, some linseed oil, all make the paint flow well off the brush and "lay down" so there are no brush strokes. (Japan dryer regulates the drying time.) It's one of those things you have to learn by doing. It's easier for models than for full-size boats because you aren't so bothered with temperature, wind, and humidity in a home or heated workshop. Acrylics are often much easier to work with than artist's oils out of a tube. (Acrylic paint manufacturers often sell conditioning materials to suit their line of paints. They'll be called "retarder" and "thinner.")

 

Practice and experiment before putting any paint on the model itself. Make a "test panel" to determine the color you will get after the paint has dried and to experiment with thinning and "conditioning" the behavior of the paint. The best paint job will be the one that goes on very thin... even like "water thin," and is laid up of several coats. It depends on the solids in the paint and other variables, but a decent topside job may take between five and eight coats or even more. Multiple thin coats are much better than fewer thick coats. (If you get brush strokes after the paid has dried, it's definitely going on too thick.)

 

Make sure whatever you are going to paint is "operating room clean," as well as the area where you are working. Dust in the air and on the surface of the model will ruin the perfect surface you are trying to achieve. Also wash and dry your hands well, at least,... or better yet, wear clean nitrile gloves. Oily fingerprints can often adversely affect paint adhesion. Remember, it's going to be a paint job that is viewed from a foot away, not twenty feet away, so it has to be perfect if you want to do the job right. Using a painter's "tack rag," which are available at any paint store, is a good practice. It will pick up the dust. Needless to say, large surfaces, like hulls, must be "smooth as a baby's bottom" before painting. (I sand basecoats to at least 300 or 400 grit, making sure the surface is perfectly smooth. Any defect will show up big-time once the paint goes on.)

 

If you want to get razor-sharp edges, use one of the "fine line" tapes sold for this purpose. 3M makes a "Fine Line" tape which is a green plastic stuff that stretches and sticks well, but is not difficult to remove. If you have complex shapes to mask, "frisket," plastic tape in sheet form that can be cut to shape with an Xacto knife is good stuff. It's used by air brush artists and can be found in any decent art supply store. Regular "painters'" masking tape can be used where sharp edges aren't critical. I often will mask a sharp edge with 1/4" wide Fine Line and then lay blue painter's tape on top of that. The Fine Line tape isn't cheap and a roll will last a long time if it's cared for. BTW, one "pro tip" I should mention is to always open a new roll of masking tape and place it in a plastic "zip lock" bag immediately and without laying the unwrapped roll of tape on it's side down on any surface.  Obviously, you can take it out of the plastic bag to peel tape off the roll, but never, ever lay it down until it's back in it's zip lock baggie. This is a good habit to get into if you are doing finish painting. It really doesn't matter with blue painter's tape if you are painting the spare bedroom at home, but for fine finish work, if a roll of tape is laid on just about any surface, and especially if done so repeatedly, the sides of the roll will pick up all sorts of dust and dirt like a magnet and when the tape is unwound, all that dust and dirt stays right on the edge of the tape and renders it basically useless for producing a sharp edge.  The baggie will also keep rolls of tape from drying out over time, so you won't be having to try to peel dried out tape off a roll before giving up and throwing it out ever again. Finally, although many people may know this from painful experience, don't leave masking tape on for long periods of time. For regular masking materials, I'd say never more than overnight. (There are specialty masking tapes which are designed to stay on the work for longer periods, if need be.) Masking tape will dry after a while (much faster outdoors in the sun, of course) and can become near impossible to remove after a time. Even short of that, when applied on painted surfaces, every hour it stays stuck down, the odds of it's pulling paint up with it when it's removed increases.

Edited May 25, 2019 by Bob Cleek

[vaddoc]

Dave,

You ll need proper brushes in different sizes. Search Proarte or Daler-Rowney system 3, the ones I use, they are fantastic.

Thin initially to a watery consistency. If it seems too thick, it is. Best to use the recommended thinner and consider a retarder

Always good to use a sealer (I use Americana water based sealer, very good) and sand to at least 400 grit. I often also use a primer before painting.

You ll need many coats. Acrylic coverage is poor. I wait 15 min between coats.

Trust the self levelling properties of the paint. Spread the paint but resist going over once more to correct it. Wait for the next coat, most times it will be fine. Brush dry to wet, start from an unpainted area and finish at the area you painted previously blending the two.

Use low tack special tapes like frog tape or Tamiya. Paint will bleed under all other tapes. Do not use masking or electricians tape.

Valejo model colour paints, combined with their thinner for hand brushing and the retarder give fantastic results. They are optimised for hand brushing.

Acrylic paint is far less tough than enamel, you ll need to vanish over.

Take care of the brushes (leave in water while painting, clean with dish soap after) and the masking tape edges.

 

Not sure about the poly treatment, may cause adhesion issues. i would sand with 400 and use a primer.

 

Regards

Vaddoc

 

[Bob Cleek]

Call me old fashioned, but I use shellac for priming all bare wood. It is dirt-cheap and about as water-impermeable as anything and very easy to use and clean up. It seals the wood pores and inhibits moisture absorption and movement of the wood to some extent. (It's soluble in, and easily cleans up with, alcohol and the shellac used on the artifacts found in King Tut's tomb has held up very well.) I then use a "sanding base coat" before final sanding and prep. The sanding base coat is designed to fill fine defects and to sand easily without clogging the sandpaper. It is not a water-based paint, but perhaps somebody's made one by now that I don't know about. (I use Interlux sanding base coat, available at marine chandleries.) Water-based paints can be tricky when sanding. They've improved dramatically in recent decades from the days when "latex paint" actually contained latex, but if you think about how well a pencil eraser or the rubber sole of a tennis shoe would sand... well, you get the idea. Like most "geezers," I lament the demise of the old solvent-based coatings, supposedly due to "environmental concerns." We learned to love their aromas and appreciate the results when they were used correctly. I wonder what the 300 year old Admiralty Board models we see in museums would look like today if they were painted with acrylics. None of us will be around to ever know for sure.

[mtaylor]

Dave,

The wipe on poly may be a problem. So might the ME paints.    First off the Ms paints are reported to be "thick".   The other problem is the poly.  I suggest before you start buying anything, take a piece of scrap, apply poly as you did on the model and then try the paint on it.  

[vaddoc]

I used to use shellac, but really this stuff works so much better, at least for me.

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Deco-Art-Multi-Purpose-Sealer/dp/B000IM5EKQ/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=decoart+multi+purpose+sealer&qid=1558770896&s=kitchen&sr=1-1-catcorr

 

Dries in 15 min and then can be sanded leaving a very smooth surface. I first sand to 400 grit, then apply two coats lightly sanding in between. Never goes bad on the shelf. Might be the same as the Delta sealer mentioned above

[druxey]

Apart from all the good advice above, sand down the poly, or you will have adhesion issues later on, if not sooner.

[CPDDET]

I see the term " retarder" and "extender" used here. Are they different or the same thing?

[CPDDET]

Well, lots to learn here. My list now includes:

Paint: (if I need to replace my MS acrylic) Valego

Brushes: synthetic  (Daler - Rowney system 3 / Prorate system 3)

Thinner: (I have contacted MS and asked them about this since its the paint they sell)

Extender / Retarder / Japan dryer (still learning about these)

Sealer: (Delta Ceramcoat / Americana / Varnish/ and I have a can of Varathane Sander Sealer to try as well)

Tape: Frog tape / Tamiya / Fine Line / "frisket"

Sandpaper: fine grit 320 / 400

 

I have plenty of extra stock wood to do test strips

 

Thanks for all the help!

 

[Bob Cleek]

12 hours ago, vaddoc said:

I used to use shellac, but really this stuff works so much better, at least for me.

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Deco-Art-Multi-Purpose-Sealer/dp/B000IM5EKQ/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=decoart+multi+purpose+sealer&qid=1558770896&s=kitchen&sr=1-1-catcorr

 

Dries in 15 min and then can be sanded leaving a very smooth surface. I first sand to 400 grit, then apply two coats lightly sanding in between. Never goes bad on the shelf. Might be the same as the Delta sealer mentioned above

I would not expect shellac to do well applied to acrylics. Alcohol is the carrier base for the shellac solids and it will thin most acrylics, possibly soften them if applied after they dry ("cure,") or "bead up" on the surface. The above product is apparently primarily intended for sealing painted acrylic surfaces and not surprisingly works better than shellac. My reference to using shellac was for sealing bare wood before painting. Some recommend sealing acrylic paints with a clear sealer compatible with acrylics. My preference is to avoid that if at all possible. The clear sealer adds another layer, which can reduce the crispness of detail and affect the way the underlying color reflects light to one degree or another. Such clear sealer topcoating isn't required with oil-based paints.

 

The uninitiated should be aware that there is a world of difference between acrylic coatings and oil-based coatings and they are... well.... "like oil and water." They don't mix well. When dry, acrylic can be applied over oil-based paint, but oil-based paint generally does not do well applied over dried acrylic, for example.

 

The best way to avoid problems for "learning" painters is to stick with a single "system." Use the same brand of products and make sure they are compatible. (Some brands make incompatible products for different applications.) Follow the directions on the containers. That said, this is by far the more expensive way to go, but that's the downside of it. Any "model" paint, particularly the acrylics, is outrageously expensive to begin with. Probably 95% of the cost is packaging, marketing, and profit, while 5% is "paint."

 

Regrettably, "VOC regulations" have restricted the use of oil-based coatings in recent times. Evaporating solvents have a negative effect on air quality and contribute to climate change. The extent to which the use of oil-based paints used for modeling degrade the environment is perhaps up for debate, but the fact is we now find it difficult to source the old painting materials in many regions. (Paint companies seem to favor discontinuing traditional paints not only because the environmental regulations affecting their production seem to be fewer and because the water-based paints don't last anywhere near a long which means they sell a lot more of them.) Great improvements in "eco-friendly" coatings have been made in recent times, but the fact remains that the "green stuff" is simply not anywhere near as good as the traditional materials. (An oil-based house paint job will last twenty years. A water-based house paint job will last probably less than ten years, and who knows what the actual "carbon footprint" of the synthetic paints really is, compared to that of the old turpentine and linseed oil "plant-based" paints. Oil-based automotive coatings never turned cloudy and flaked off like the modern water-based "clear coated" auto paints now do.) Some oil-based specialty coatings are still available in "VOC restricted" areas, usually packaged in smaller quantities. Considerable savings in cost and higher quality finishes can be achieved by using these products in modeling. Quality finely ground high-pigment artists' oil paints and "One Shot" brand sign painters' paint serve well for modeling, but the user will have to learn how to condition them for use and mix their own colors. Anyone unfamiliar with mixing colors and using paints and other coatings should spend some time googling YouTube videos or finding an experienced artist or fine-finish painter to tutor them.

 

All in all, the one thing that really must be done is to test each coating for "applicability" (how well does it flow and "lay down," compatibility with surfaces and adjacently applied coatings, and color and gloss level when dry before applying it to a model into which many hours of work has been put. We don't get much more than one chance to get it right. Stripping a failed coating off of a delicate model is to be avoided at all costs.

[vaddoc]

Deco art sealer is a water based sanding sealer for bare wood prior to painting. 

[druxey]

As Bob says, first test any new paint or combination out on a surface other than your model!

Edited May 28, 2019 by druxey

[CPDDET]

Received an answer from MS. They tell me their paint can be thinned with water. If airbrushing, thin with alcohol.

 

So if I'm brushing the paint do you more experienced modelers suggest water or alcohol? 

 

How thin should it be? I've heard elsewhere it should be the consistency of milk?

 

Dave

[Canute]

Consistency of skim milk. Denatured alcohol or distilled water to thin. Your tap water may have minerals and other additives that will mess up your paints. A gallon of distilled water is a dollar or two in the US.

[dkuzminov]

I'm planning to paint a wooden ship model with acrylic paint, but the variety of different paint types makes me embarrassed. So I'm asking for an advice which one to choose.

 

First, I'm planning to use a brush: is it a good idea? I have no workshop for airbrush, but I probably could use a spray.

Next, I need matte finish. One of the options is a chalk acrylic paint: but is it a good choice for a wooden model?

 

By default I plan to use a FolkArt chalk paint, please comment my choice.

Thank you

[GrandpaPhil]

Personally, I like Delta Ceramcoat.  That’s just my personal preference.

 

It works well for me.

Edited November 11, 2019 by GrandpaPhil

[ccoyle]

I'm assuming that "chalk paint" is something that is formulated with coarser pigments than those that are used in paints intended for modeling. Ceramcoat is also not intended for scale modeling due to the same issue, but that doesn't mean that you can't use either type (I use Ceramcoat regularly) -- it just means that you won't get as smooth a finish compared to that obtained with modeling paints. But obviously you can't beat the price on something like Ceramcoat at ~$1.00/bottle, and the bottle lasts forever.

[stuglo]

for very fine brushes, try the local beauty/cosmetic supply stores. Here at least they are very cheap, useful and for practical purposes as good as specialist modelling brushes at a fraction of the cost.

[vaddoc]

I would suggest to use only paint products specific for modelling. Much better pigments and quality. Yes, with practice you can brush paint with very good results. Spray paints are expensive and messy I have found. With acrylics you need a top coat, mat in your case.

[grsjax]

I thin MS paint with 91% rubbing alcohol with a little retarder because the alcohol will really speed up drying and you can end up with a mass of dry paint on your brush in no time.  For spraying add some flow enhancer to the mix.