Terminology Confusion - Hounds, Cheeks and Knees

[BANYAN]

Hi all, I am trying to sort out the terminology used by different authors, and probably relevant to different eras also.

 

I am building a model of ship launched in 1855.  The preeminent authors of this period (for masting and rigging) being Fincham and Kipping whom both published editions in 1854.

 

Specifically, they write of the 'knees' fitted to masts under Hounds/Hounding, and being one piece, but Fincham in particular also talks about 'cheeks' separately.  In earlier times I am familiar with Bibbs and Cheeks being separate.  Fincham states that Knees fitted in 'Steamers' being one piece, but he and Kipping seem to use the terms Hounds, Hounding and Knees inconsistently.  Under 'Cheeks', Fincham describes them being of yellow pine and describes how they were coaked and bolted.  I am assuming also that the knee is the former bibb?

 

Am I correct in assuming that these are all the one and same item(s)?  That is, a single piece knee and cheek form the 'hounds'?

 

any thanks

 

Pat

[BANYAN]

Bump

[Dr PR]

Pat,

 

In "Masting and Rigging the Clipper Ship and Ocean Carrier" (1972, page 5) Harold A. Underhill gives the following definitions of mast parts (bottom to top):

 

Note: In this case the "mast" is a single pole or spar, such as the lower mast, the top mast or topgallant mast.

 

Heel: the bottom of the mast.

Partners: where the mast passes through the main deck.

Hounds: the top of the cheeks, where the trestle-trees* rest.

Head: the part of the mast between the hounds and the highest part of the mast at the cap.

Doubling: the part between the hounds and the cap (the head), where the lower mast and upper mast fit side by side.

Hounded length: the part of the mast between the heel and the hounds.

Measured length: the overall length from heel to highest point at the top of the cap.

 

Measured length = hounded length + head.

 

These terms should apply to mid 1800s British and American ships.

 

****

 

The mast cheeks are supports for the top that are fastened to either side (port/starboard) of the mast. The shape, how they are attached to the mast, and additional parts varied with the type of ship and the period. In "Historic Ship Models" Wolfram zu Mondfeld has drawings of several arrangements.

 

Continental ships had single pieces called "bibbs" attached to the sides of the mast (p 219). English top supports were built up with a piece attached to the sides of the mast itself (the "cheeks") with the bibb pieces notched into the front of the cheeks. The whole collection of pieces that support the top are typically referred to as the "cheeks" or "mast cheeks" (p 221).

 

****

 

* The "top" is the platform near the top of a mast. The trestle-trees are the fore-aft members that the mast top is constructed on. They support the side-to-side cross-trees that support the decking in the top. Trestle-trees rest on the top edge of the cheeks.

 

So the hounds were the line at the top edge of the cheeks and the bottom most part of the top. In this Underhill is quite specific. In a drawing showing the top and the cheeks he has an arrow pointing from the label "hounds" directly to the line between the top of the cheek and the bottom of the trestle-trees. The mast top itself is above the hounds.

 

Hope this helps more than it confuses!

 

Edited July 26, 2019 by Dr PR

[Dr PR]

Pat,

 

I have been researching this a bit more. Cheeks, bibbs and hounds are terms that are used differently by just about every author.

 

Hounds are the part of the mast structure directly below tops - that is pretty uniform for all authors I have looked at. However, exactly what the hounds are is pretty vague. Some authors say the hounds include the cheeks and bibbs. Some say it is just the part of the mast at the top of the cheeks or bibbs. One author refers to sheaves set into the cheeks as hounds. Another seems to consider anything on a mast that is intended to prevent lines or structures from slipping down the mast to be hounds. And one author says the top is built around the part of the mast call the hounds, implying that the hounds are above the cheeks! Take your choice.

 

Underhill is the only author that used the term "hounds" to mean a specific point along the length of the mast, and it is for the purpose of defining the diameter/cross section of the mast at that point.

 

The terms "cheeks" and "bibbs" are used interchangeably for the attachments to the masts at the hounds that support tops and cross trees. Most authors refer to the main part that is attached directly to the mast as the "cheeks." This may be a simple single piece knee, where the forward curved part may be called the bib. Or it may be a long piece secured to the mast by woldings that is shaped at the top to form a "cheek." A "bibb" or "bib" is a piece attached to this cheek to create a forward extension to support the trestle-trees.

 

One other thing to be aware of is that the knees that support the head timbers at the bow are also called "cheeks." Some call these "head cheeks."

 

So the term "cheek" is about as ambiguous as can be.

Edited July 26, 2019 by Dr PR

[Dr PR]

Here is an image from the Anatomy of  A Ship series for the HMS Granado.

 

The associated text gives these definitions (by numbered part) for the main mast: 1 Mast side view, 2 Mast front view, 3 Tenon for mast cap, 4 Lower mast head, 5 Bibs, 6 Cheeks, 7 Side fishes, 9 Wolding, 12 Cross section of the mast at the hounds.

 

There is no clear definition of the extent of the "hounds" other than it is some part of the square section of the mast where the cheeks attach. In other drawings in the book "hounds" are just "rigging stop" attachments to the mast to support rigging that is tied around the mast.

 

The cheeks are attached to the mast with bolts and woldings, and the bibs are attached to the cheeks. This seems to be the most consistent use of the terms. On smaller or later ships the cheeks and bibs may be a single piece. Instead of a longer piece extending down the mast and secured with woldings, the cheek may be a single knee-like piece that is bolted to the flats on the mast.

 

Edited July 26, 2019 by Dr PR

[BANYAN]

Thanks DR PR, much appreciate the effort and time you have put into these very detailed responses.

 

You hit the nail on the head when you said that the terms are used differently by almost all authors - that is what caused my confusion also.  I thought I had an understanding but then the authors would discuss the same subject matter applying the terms differently  

 

That said, i think I have resolved it.  I looked at a couple of contemporary nautical/marine dictionaries which all agreed that the the term 'hounds' had started to be used for 'cheeks' in this period.  The one part I have not fully resolved is the use of the term 'knees' for these descriptions also.  I have assumed that knees are the more modern term for the bibbs?

 

Essentially, for single tree masts (which I am interested in) the cheeks/bibbs or hounds/knees were made from a single piece rather than fayed to each other in this period (1855).  The trestletrees sat on the hounds/knees.

 

Thanks again for the feedback, much appreciated.

 

cheers

 

Pat

[Dr PR]

Pat,

 

I was already wrestling with this when I read your first post so it was easy to share.

 

Actually, I think some people may use "knees" for "cheeks" that do not have separate "bibbs." I have found only one author who called the cheeks "knees" and in his drawings they were trapezoidal and didn't resemble actual knees!

 

Metal masts had single piece metal cheeks.

Edited July 27, 2019 by Dr PR

[BANYAN]

Thanks again for sharing DR PR, much appreciated.  The two authors of the contemporary dictionaries were  A. Young (Nautical Dictionary), and H. Smythe (Sailor's Word Book).  Both are available as either an eBook or PDF online.  Let me know if you don't have them, or can't find them.  I have found them useful being contemporary to Kipping and Fincham.  As secondary sources I have been using Underhill, Campbell, Crothers and McCann.

 

I think I am now sufficiently comfortable with the terminology as applicable to HMCSS Victoria which had single tree Lower masts, with a combined Top, Topgallant and Royal mast (Fincham is the only author to even mention the latter :).    I was very happy to hear that you also found the terminology used somewhat haphazardly/interchangeable.  In particular, your description/interpretation of knees is probably correct based on what I have read, certainly makes sense.

 

In 'Victoria'  all of the Lower masts had cheeks/knees with the cheek length half the length of the masthead (3 ft 6 inches in my case).  Just need to find a better description for the dimensions (length and breadth in particular) for the skeletal Tops now - slowly getting there.  I think I may have to rely mostly on my CAD drawing to confirm these dimensions based on the lead of the shrouds, then cross-reference to the available description to see if they conform.

 

cheers

 

Pat

[Dr PR]

Pat,

 

I was looking through your Victoria build and saw mention of single tree masts. While looking for something else I came across this 1854 reference:

 

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=hvd.32044091909846&view=1up&seq=13

 

Masting, Mast Making, and Rigging of Ships

Robert Kipping

London 1854

 

Chapter III describes construction of single tree masts, and mast hounds for these masts.

Edited July 28, 2019 by Dr PR

[BANYAN]

Hi mate; thanks for the reference - I have that one and his (and Finchams) description of those cheeks are part of the confusion   Kipping says the length of the cheek is two-fifths, but Fincham says half of the length of the masthead (3foot 6 inches by Fincham for the 'Victoria').- Kipping is not that far off - only 3 inches . 

 

The problem though is that both authors suggest the main and fore mastheads were fitted with different forms of Tops (and possibly hounds) due to the amount of chain used about the mainmast in many Steamers.  'Victoria' though used wire ropes for all shrouds so the masthead shape would have been the same on all masts.  I am assuming the rounded style/form as the available imagery I have supports this.

 

Now that I am more confident in the use of the terminology (note Kipping calls them hound pieces - in one) I can move forward from here; the next issue being to sort out the style of the Tops as the imagery I have shows two different types depending on the image I use, and which also differ from the  Lower Tops described by Kipping and Fincham - the issues just don't stop   I have made some decisions on these and will use a common style of Top on all masts, more aligned to the Topmast style of Tops described by Kipping and Fincham, as that is what is shown in the imagery.  The difference being the use of gratings/deck battens in the tops.  The photo I have shows them, and the Rigging Warrant mentions them, so rather than skeletal I will add the battens.

 

Many thanks for the help.

 

cheers

 

Pat

Edited July 29, 2019 by BANYAN