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21 ft Yawl Longboat for a Sixth Rate by vaddoc - Scale 1:10 - Plans from the National Maritime Museum


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On 7/23/2020 at 3:03 PM, Bedford said:

You can't stop now so keep building

Indeed, somehow it feels nice knowing a boat is waiting patiently in my garage!

 

On 7/23/2020 at 7:59 PM, allanyed said:

If you look in  the Boats of Men of War, on page 35

Allan, I have the book and went through it. Somehow I did not register that the sailors were just hauling in the line just with bare hands. So this is sorted, no blocks or capstan. I still however have no source of info as to how the davit was attached and do not really know were else to look. 

 

 

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So, it has been one step forward, two backwards so far.

 

My printer problems continue. Looking at my print outs, even just eyeballing the lines did not look straight. I checked and indeed, they were curved like a bow. That means that the jig I cut three days ago was wrong. A few hours worth of work gone in the scrap pile.

 

After a lot of try and error I managed to a get a straight print out so I need to redo the jig However, I then decided to tackle the keel.

 

The keel should be 8 mm wide, 11 mm in height and close to 60 cm in length. It has to be laminated from thinner strips, in this case 5 strips 2 mm thick and a strip 1 mm thick. I decided this time to use PVA instead of epoxy for three reasons, the mess the epoxy makes, the mixing and preparation needed and also because epoxy would increase the height of the keel quite a lot and would be visible-I intend to leave the boat unpainted. I used white PVA and not aliphatic, bevause it dries clear and not yellow and also for the slightly longer opening time.

 

However the keel also needs to be dead straight. So I made a jig with pieces of timber perfectly aligned, 8 mm apart. Their face is covered with paper so that they wont stick to the laminated keel. The bottom strip has masking paper in the bottom surface for the exact same reason. It went well but not perfectly. I want the sides of the hull to be smooth and I am suspect they wont be. There should be some room for sanding, if however it does not come out right I ll need to redo it, this time with the keel laying on its side.

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Vaddoc,

I checked in Lavery's Arming and Fitting as he has a lot of information on ships' boats, but only mentions which boats had davits for lifting the buoy rope of the anchors.   It SEEMS the davit would be of sufficient weight that there would just be a slot in the bottom to rest on the iron pivot rod.  

 

What year is given on the NMM drawing that you are using?  In reading up on the yawls, I saw that there were a lot of changes in their design and whether they were clinker or carvel built depending on the year.   

 

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11 hours ago, G.L. said:

Laying the keel, an exciting moment

Thanks G.L.! So far more frustration than excitement but we ll get there!

23 hours ago, allanyed said:

Arming and Fitting

This looks like a nice book Allan, there was a copy on ebay for sale for £20 which seemed a good price-so I bought it. Regarding the era of the boat, the MNM dates it "end of 18th century". Indeed, these boats were swapping between carvel and clinker but I will build it clinker, simply because I want to make a proper lapstrake and mess about with plank shapes etc. 

Regarding the davit, there are two problems with your very nice drawing. First, the plans (in the first post of this log) show two lateral support poles which I am not certain where they should attach. The second is that I did not really intended this boat to have a keelson, just steam bend ribs (more likely they would be used instead of solid frames) and the floor supported by floor boards. As I said previously, I still have not found a source with info how these boats were actually built. Certainly though, some strong support would be needed for the pivot rod.

 

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The build continues at the same pace, on step forward and two backwards, as if to prove that indeed CAD accuracy is not really important or needed, considering the abysmal tolerances of creating the pieces by hand.

 

I made the keel once using PVA, stacking the strips one on top of the other. The keel came out straight but the strips were not very well aligned sideways and a lot of sanding would be needed to make the sides smooth. Also, the keel is quite flexible despite being 8 x 11 mm and laminated from 6 strips.

 

I then made another one, this time with the strips stacked sideways and compressed along both height and width. I had to remake the jig as every time it gets sacrificed. Clamping was very complex.

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The keel came out bend and also not flat.💥☠️!

I could attempt to use the first keel but I thought I would try epoxy. It is very messy but has lots of open time and should produce a very rigid keel. So I made the jig for the third time, laminated the keel but this time clamped it in a different way. 

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I left everything clamped but tried to clear as much epoxy as I could from the wood before it hardens. No idea how it will come out but I have a suspicion it will probably be S shaped. We ll know tomorrow morning.

 

In the mean time, we visited Ely with the family and went on a short river cruise. The boat in the photo bellow is the most interesting boat I ve seen in British rivers. It has a long mast on a tabernacle (the chain plates are visible), external boards and a proper sea anchor but I doubt it would be very sea worthy, probably is very heavy as well. No idea what purpose it serves.

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I don't know how much you know about epoxy but there is generally a period when it has solidified but is still relatively soft. A saving grace when I build the full size Miss Caroline. 

You'll find a sharp chisel or knife will slice through the squeeze out quite easily and cleanly. If the epoxy has passed this point then the careful application of heat from a hot air gun will temporarily soften it and allow easy trimming but don't let it get too hot or the epoxy will fail.

 

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14 hours ago, Bedford said:

how much you know about epoxy

Oh, I ve used Epoxy extensively so far! The problem with removing epoxy is than in the uncured state, usually there is not enough room in the jig to scrape it off and after it has cured, using power tools or heat is much more dangerous than in the real boat as easily the pieces can be destroyed or too much material to be taken out from the wrong places. This is why I wanted to try PVA, to make sanding easier and the process less messy.

 

However, after all my efforts these last few days, my opinion is that using PVA to laminate wood is feasible but difficult. The opening time is not long enough and the glue is not rigid enough to counteract the pull of the wood. Much better to use epoxy

 

Now, this morning I woke up with two keels, the epoxy one in the jig and the PVA whch I made the first time. I decided to sand the PVA keel smooth and I discovered that the pieces of paper I used to make sure the jig would not stick to the keel, had become embedded in between the laminates!

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So this keel goes also to the scrap pile. Last hope the epoxy version. I took it off the jig and it looks reasonable.

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I carefully chiselled the big pieces off and then sanded the keel smooth. It was much easier than I expected. I use Z poxy finishing resin thickened with talk powder and 120 grit 3M silicon carbide sand paper. I used my respirator, fired up my air filter and then vacuumed the fine dust as it is certainly not healthy to breath and also there is a small chance it may have some asbestos in (I ve been recently reading about asbestos). The final outcome is acceptable, the keel is quite straight and flat. It is 8 mm wide as intended but 10.5 mm high instead of 11 mm-I think it should be fine.

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I wanted to make the keel appear as a solid piece of wood as I will not be painting the boat but this is not possible with epoxy. I could glue a veneer on the sides of the keel or laminate it again with the strips vertical instead of horizontal. Or maybe try PVA once more, this time making sure the strips alternate in their direction of curve. Or maybe leave it as it is.

 

Decisions-decisions...

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I don't understand why you feel that you need to laminate up a keel. Using solid wood, held straight in a building jig, should be more than adequate. Am I missing something here?

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45 minutes ago, druxey said:

Using solid wood,

I do not mill my own wood Druxey and getting a piece 600x8x11 is difficult (can be ordered though-expensive). Even if I do, it might not be straight or it might bend later on with the changes in humidity. I do have lots of strips though and a laminated piece will never bend. Furthermore, keels I think were usually made of several pieces, although probably not in small boats like this. But you do have a point, maybe I am overcomplicating things

I need to order lots of wood for the planking so maybe it worth also asking for a solid piece to make the keel or two halves to glue together for stability. Money is tight though at this time!

 

I need to sleep on it-maybe you are right.

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Is it possible that you know someone who can cut wood to size for you? Are there other model-makers in your area that might have the equipment to do this for you or, if you are familiar with using power equipment, might have some time to use it?

 

Well-seasoned, straight-grained wood should be dimensionally stable enough for your purpose.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Bruce, Vlad and Druxey, many thanks for your comments. I have corresponded through PMs with Bruce (very grateful Bruce!) following his very kind offer to help but on this occasion should not be needed.

 

On 7/28/2020 at 2:00 AM, druxey said:

Well-seasoned, straight-grained wood should be dimensionally stable enough for your purpose.

Now Druxey, I ve been digesting your suggestions and I think you are right. As much as I like to laminate staff, a solid piece of wood should be just fine, as long as it is good quality. So I am preparing a large timber order from Arkowood in Germany. The timber I had received in the past was top quality and I am taking the opportunity to also order beech for the planking as well as a few extra sheets of pear for future use. Overall £200 worth of wood, however the admiral is on vacation abroad with the girls so again a rare opportunity which should not be wasted...Building in large scale is expensive.

I did however order some strips the size of half keel, in case I need to laminate the hull from two pieces!😉 The lamination this time would be vertical and invisible.

 

Ok, lets move one to the garage now, there is some wood dust further down I promise!

 

I did a lot of work on the 3D plans and improved a lot of details. I also managed to get my printer to talk again with my computers so I can now print in decent quality. I printed the patterns for the keel, the hog, the jig and all 17 temporary frames.

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My lines kept coming out curved instead of straight but I managed to solve this problem as well. Now, the garboard planks will intersect the hog which will need to be shaped. The shape and angles can be found from the temporary frames after everything is erected but the 3D easily shows this so the hog will be shaped (grossly) before attached to the keel. The photos bellow explain this, these are the frames (inner surface of the hull)

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Chapelle mentions in "Boatbuilding" that a boat will either have a rabbet or an apron (hog in a sense) but that both are not needed. This looks logical as both options are there to secure the lower edge of the garboards. However, it seems that it is not uncommon that both are used and this is how my boat will be built. The following photo taken from my searches of the net shows what I mean. (source: https://buildinganfldpunt.home.blog/2019/04/06/the-rabbet-lines/)

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At the same time, I have been laminating the plywood for the frames. The only way to get perfectly flat plywood is to laminate it. I used very good quality plywood from Cornwall models, 2 & 1.5 mm thickness. I had to make sure that the film of epoxy was thin as the sheets were just a tiny bit oversized and I did not want the laminate to be more than 4 mm. I forgot to take pictures of the process but essentially thickened epoxy was applied to one sheet, the other sheet went on top, then a plastic film, then a thick flat table top and then whatever heavy items I could find to pile on top.

 

The result: perfectly flat, spot on 4 mm thick very strong plywood! The second photo shows how straight the 600 mm edge is.

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One thing to mention, I have stopped using talk powder to thicken epoxy as I am slightly worried whether it could contains asbestos. I used gypsum and the results were pretty much identical.

 

Then I glued the patterns to the wood. I decided to use spray glue instead of the Pritt glue I ve been using so far. I used the Craftmount 3M spray glue, it is the cheapest in their range (still expensive) but works very well and I think I prefer it over Pritt, at least for these large surfaces. The ruler is 50 cm long, this will be a ridiculously large boat! 

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I then changed the sand paper and the work top on my home made disc sander. I used 80 grit as there will be some heavy sanding happening.

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Then at last I cut some wood!

 

I roughly cut the frames and then followed the outline within a mm or two. The final trimming to the lines will be done with the disc and the drum sanders

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There certainly will be some curves in this boat!

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The frames are completely flat

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The laminate came out very nice

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The little motosaw did very well and had no trouble cutting the thick plywood but I did a few breaks to allow it to cool. That was a lot of cutting the poor thing did!

 

I will finish the frames but then I will need to stop as it will take a couple of weeks I think for the wood to arrive. I previously was thinking to also laminate the stem and false stem but now I think I ll make them out of solid wood. We ll see.

 

Regards

Vaddoc

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Now, this was a surprise! Craig, you have the eyes of a hawk, I completely missed this.

The first word is definitely "Davit", the second I agree it very much looks like "socket". Your proposed arrangement with the axle rod in these sockets and the davit resting on the transom looks very tidy and actually simplifies construction. Also, another thing I missed is that if we accept that all the drawings of the original plans are to same scale, the davit is small and would not reach the keel. Certainly a very light duty davit but then again this boat was meant for the smallest of the warships.

Excellent, many thanks!

 

Vaddoc

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Yay, I get to say "No worries mate". :)

 

39 minutes ago, vaddoc said:

Also, another thing I missed is that if we accept that all the drawings of the original plans are to same scale

Careful with that. If a different scale is used it is usually specified, but not always.

 

Another thing, no way is that boat on page 35 'about 21 feet', with only 3 thwarts it's most likely 16, maybe 18.

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12 hours ago, vaddoc said:

The laminate came out very nice

I'll say it did. I like what you have done with the laminate. As I am about to make a smaller version out of some veneers laying around it was interesting to come across your description.

I've heard people say 'We're going to need a bigger boat'. Well, looks like it's on the way.

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A very frustrating day today but a nice photo came out in the end that deserves a post.

 

Today was one of those days that everything went wrong. Things went pear shaped at work and when I came home, I did what looked like the most sensible thing after a frustrating day: pick up the most frustrating hobby there is! And things went wrong again.

 

I first shaped all the frames and sanded all the bevels. The cant half frames were very complex and a bit tricky to make but all came out fine. For the sanding and shaping of the frames I used the disc sander, a carpet knife and a makeshift sanding disc, made with two round pieces of sandpaper 100 grit glued together and mounted on a dremel bit.

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Then things went down hill. I discovered that there were mistakes in the plans for the jig. Trying to figure out how they happened, I realised that frame No 1 was actually 3.8 mm thick in the plans instead of 4mm. Although this looks insignificant, due to the acute bevel at the bow it resulted in 1.2 mm gap with the planks.

 

I fixed the plans and printed everything again. I may get away with remaking frame No 1 as I can just glue the new print on top and fix the bevels, this is due to the alignment marks I ve put in the plans.

 

Then I tried to glue the new print on the jig and managed to spray the wrong side with glue! I think that I will need to print it out again as it is so tacky that will be impossible to cut but I took the opportunity of this mistake to set the frames in place and have a look. It does not look too bad!

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Before everything collapsed I tried a strip and the bevels look right. I somehow have a feeling though that planking this boat will be pretty challenging.

Time to wrap it up for today!

 

 

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 Nice recovery!  The bulkheads look really good!

 

We’ve all had those days.  When my day has gone south, I also go straight to my hobby room.  If that goes south, I usually dig into the rest of my model/miniature/jigsaw puzzle collection and find something quick and easy to make before I make a mistake on my good project that would be hard to recover from.

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On 8/10/2020 at 10:12 PM, vaddoc said:

A very frustrating day today but a nice photo came out in the end that deserves a post.

 

Today was one of those days that everything went wrong. Things went pear shaped at work and when I came home, I did what looked like the most sensible thing after a frustrating day: pick up the most frustrating hobby there is! And things went wrong again.

 

I first shaped all the frames and sanded all the bevels. The cant half frames were very complex and a bit tricky to make but all came out fine. For the sanding and shaping of the frames I used the disc sander, a carpet knife and a makeshift sanding disc, made with two round pieces of sandpaper 100 grit glued together and mounted on a dremel bit.

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Then things went down hill. I discovered that there were mistakes in the plans for the jig. Trying to figure out how they happened, I realised that frame No 1 was actually 3.8 mm thick in the plans instead of 4mm. Although this looks insignificant, due to the acute bevel at the bow it resulted in 1.2 mm gap with the planks.

 

I fixed the plans and printed everything again. I may get away with remaking frame No 1 as I can just glue the new print on top and fix the bevels, this is due to the alignment marks I ve put in the plans.

 

Then I tried to glue the new print on the jig and managed to spray the wrong side with glue! I think that I will need to print it out again as it is so tacky that will be impossible to cut but I took the opportunity of this mistake to set the frames in place and have a look. It does not look too bad!

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Before everything collapsed I tried a strip and the bevels look right. I somehow have a feeling though that planking this boat will be pretty challenging.

Time to wrap it up for today!

 

 

Gddday Vaddoc, some days are bleak for sure but you still do wonders with those difficult bow angles parts. sanding discs are tools with capital T. enjoying the progress with comment and learning from it. V. 

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  • 2 weeks later...

Many thanks to all for your sympathy and comments. Yes, indeed things are now back in order!

 

I re-printed and re-glued the template for the jig, cut away the excess and sanded the notches to size. I fitted the frames and made the final adjustments. All look good and actually I ll use the jig to align and epoxy the half cant frames together. In all honesty, I am not sure how the jig will work to allow also planking of the boat. I think somehow the temporary frames will need to be secured to the keel ot ribands to be set up, however no rogue holes should be allowed. We ll see. The bevels look alright...

 

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Next, the wood arrived from Arkowood. Very nice, the colour of the pear is uniform without any light bluish areas. The beech wood is also nice but probably unsteamed as it has a yellow hue instead of pink. I think it does not go as well with pear but I will Tung oil the pear wood so I think it should work in the end. Or not!

A couple of the beech sheets are quite warped but we have to accept that with some woods, this can happen. I think they are probably a bit too warped to be used but we shall see

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Now, I also received long pieces for the keel as well as half pieces with the intention of laminating it. None of the pieces was dead straight and in the end I managed to isolate a segment that was reasonably straight, at least sideways.

 

I then tried to laminate a keel but using PVA. It came out slightly out of alignment sideways. This confirms to me that PVA should not be used for laminating, if I had used epoxy it would have been dead straight. The solid keel I ve cut earlier is better.

 

I think I will give it one more go laminating with epoxy but really, I think the solid keel would be good enough.

 

Off with the girls to Cambridge now before rain sets in

BTW, you are all invited to visit the Fisherman's launch log which I hopefully will start later on today. Starting a second scratch build when I have barely any time for one? Well, there is an explanation, all in good time.

 

Best regards

Vaddoc

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28 minutes ago, garyshipwright said:

filler blocks in between the frame/bulkheads

Hi Gary

This is going to be a plank on frame model. These are temporary frames, once erected the planking will go on which will be lapstrake. Then steam bent frames will go on in between the frames, then the frames will be removed and replaced with steam bent ribs. I would like to leave the boat unpainted which means reusing the same holes and this will be one of the many challenges in this build.

The planks will be 2 mm thick (and up to 80 cm long...) so should sit nicely on the frames as spaced apart.

Not sure if I can pull this off but it will be fun trying. 

 

Vaddoc

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Hi Vaddoc.  Nice job so far and thank you for feeling me in on your build. As far as reusing the same holes this is what I do, well at least I try. I usually us pin's to hold things together and after finally finishing the parts install treenail's/trunnels in the holes. Every once in a while I end up with a hole or two out of place but use saw dust that is the same color to fill those holes. Thanks again for sitting me straight.  No worry's sir am behind you 100 percent.   Helping each other is what its all about. Gary 

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