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7 hours ago, Bob Cleek said:

Well, what do you expect from anybody who calls them "tall ships?" Rubes for sure! :D There wasn't any such thing as a "tall ship community" in the age of sail. Neither did real seamen spend half their time singing "sea chanteys" to the music of insufferable amateur concertina players. :D 

I suspect that the term "tall ships" comes from a marketing department somewhere to advertise for one the "tall ship" gatherings that happen. It separates them from the regular steel navy/cargo ships.

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2 hours ago, mtaylor said:

I suspect that the term "tall ships" comes from a marketing department somewhere to advertise for one the "tall ship" gatherings that happen. It separates them from the regular steel navy/cargo ships.

Yes, indeed!

30 minutes ago, Jim Lad said:

I believe the term 'Tall Ships' was thought up some years ago by the European sail training mob in a advertising campaign.

 

John

Absolutely correct.

 

The term "tall ship" was popularized by a poem by John Masefield called Sea Fever:

 

I must down to the seas again, to the lonely sea and the sky,
And all I ask is a tall ship and a star to steer her by,
And the wheel's kick and the wind's song and the white sail's shaking,
And a grey mist on the sea's face, and a grey dawn breaking.

 

The first line is often misquoted as "I must go down to the seas again." The original version of 1902 reads 'I must down to the seas again'. In later versions, the author inserted the word 'go'. Source: https://poemanalysis.com/sea-fever-john-masefield-poem-analysis

 

Author Joseph Conrad who spent 1874 to 1894 at sea and was quite particular about naval terminology used the term "tall ship" in his works; for example, in The Mirror of the Sea in 1903. 

 

Henry David Thoreau also references the term "tall ship" in his first work, A Week on the Concord and Merrimack Rivers, quoting "Down out at its mouth, the dark inky main blending with the blue above. Plum Island, its sand ridges scolloping along the horizon like the sea-serpent, and the distant outline broken by many a tall ship, leaning, still, against the sky." He does not cite this quotation, but the work was written in 1849.

 

These early usages appear to be simply poetic descriptions as would be "a big car" or "a long train."  It had no other specific nautical meaning.

 

Modernly, "tall ship" is often used generically in reference to large, classic, sailing vessels, but is also a technically defined term invented by Sail Training International for its purposes and of course, Sail Training International helped popularize the term. The exact definitions have changed somewhat over time, and are subject to various technicalities, but by 2011 there were 4 classes (A, B, C, and D). Basically there are only two size classes, A is over 40 m LOA, and B/C/D are 9.14 m to under 40 m LOA. The definitions have to do with rigging: class A is for square sail rigged ships, class B is for "traditionally rigged" ships, class C is for "modern rigged" vessels with no "spinnaker-like sails", and class D is the same as class C but carrying a spinnaker-like sail. Sail Training International has extended the definition of tall ship for the purpose of its races to embrace any sailing vessel of more than 30 feet (9.14 m) waterline length and on which at least half the people on board are aged 15 to 25. This definition can include many modern sailing yachts that few who use the term to describe large sailing vessels would recognize as "tall ships."

 

Outside of Sail Training International's unique commercial parameters, the term "tall ship" is meaningless as nautical nomenclature and people who use it to describe any particular sort of vessel, such as a large square-rigged one, are only proclaiming their status as landsmen.  

 

 

 

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On 12/13/2019 at 1:35 AM, Bob Cleek said:

Outside of Sail Training International's unique commercial parameters, the term "tall ship" is meaningless as nautical nomenclature and people who use it to describe any particular sort of vessel, such as a large square-rigged one, are only proclaiming their status as landsmen.  

Which the majority of people are, and don't feel particularly challenged in that regard.  :D

 

 

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7 hours ago, Gregory said:

Which the majority of people are, and don't feel particularly challenged in that regard.  :D

 

 

As long as they stay on dry land, ignorance can be bliss, I suppose. :D

 

Edited by Bob Cleek

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Seasons Greetings.

I'd call this a Robin.

An Ornithologist knows it as Erithacus rubecula. But he would accept the rest of us calling it a Robin.

Unless you know the (to a layman) subtle differences between the myriad rigs of historical sailing ships, then the layman is quite justified using the term 'Tall Ships'.

I agree, each type has it's own correct description.

But even in the 'historical' periods, some rigs were confused with others.

If a family has a day out at the bay and has the luck to see any kind of sailing ship close up, a youngster may, just may be inspired. Perhaps later in life that child will have that memory and use it to develop a more profound interest and learn what is what. Today a child will have no issue with the term 'tall ship'. It's simply a ship with sails. It's JUST A NAME.

To deny that SMACKS OF ELITEISM, pure Snobbery.

Perhaps (just to show what we're talking about) we should be tarring our hair, get covered in crude tattoo's and walk with knuckles dragging on the ground.

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On 12/15/2019 at 1:15 AM, shipman said:

It's JUST A NAME.

To deny that SMACKS OF ELITEISM, pure Snobbery.

Not in the least. To the contrary, that assertion simply makes excuses for imprecise speech and, as I noted, betrays an uninformed, if not lazy, intellect, in much the same way that incorrect spelling might not impair the meaning of a word, but, to those who know better, says something about the writer who made the error. There is nothing elitist about that at all. Real life is nothing like the Special Olympics where everybody wins a prize regardless of the place in which they may have finished.

 

An ornithologist who will use the taxonomic name, Erithacus rubecula, would understand the name, "robin" or "robin redbreast," when speaking with a layperson because those are the colloquial English names for the European robin, but an amateur ornithologist or "birdwatcher" who referred to it in a conversation with other ornithologists or knowledgeable birdwatchers as simply a robin would, by their failure to employ proper nomenclature, betray their lack of knowledge and sophistication concerning the subject matter being discussed.  

 

To put a finer point on it, there is also an American robin, which has the taxonomic name of Turdus migratorius. Even though it's properly called a a "robin" or "robin redbreast" in colloquial American English, it's taxonomic name identifies it as a member of the genus Turdus, while the European robin, is as clear from its taxonomic name, is a member of the genus Erithacus.  We know from these taxonomic names that the North American robin is a thrush, while the European robin is a chat, (although formerly classified as a thrush.)

 

 

North American robin:

 

  • Turdus-migratorius-002.jpg

 

Then there are 49 species in 19 genera of Australasian robins, also with a red breast, and also commonly called "robins." These are in the family Petroicidae, and unrelated to either the North American or European "robins."

 

Petroica boodang male - Knocklofty.jpg
 
So, if a birdwatcher shows up to an international conference of ornithologists and starts pontificating about "robins," they are not likely to be taken too seriously, just as someone who aspires to being taken seriously by mariners and maritime historians will probably be disappointed with the reception they get when they use the term "tall ships." Context is everything.  As with birds, in a serious discussion about maritime subjects, proper use of the nomenclature makes a difference. 
 
BTW, I don't know about your side of the Pond, but over here in the USA we've got lots of people who tar their hair, get covered in crude tattoos and walk with knuckles dragging on the ground and nobody thinks they know squat about ships and the sea, or much else for that matter. :D
 
 
Edited by Bob Cleek

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41 minutes ago, Bob Cleek said:

Not in the least. To the contrary, that assertion simply makes excuses for imprecise speech and, as I noted, betrays an uninformed, if not lazy, intellect, in much the same way that incorrect spelling might not impair the meaning of a word, but, to those who know better, says something about the writer who made the error. There is nothing elitist about that at all. Real life is nothing like the Special Olympics where everybody wins a prize regardless of the place in which they may have finished.

 

An ornithologist who will use the taxonomic name, Erithacus rubecula, would understand the name, "robin" or "robin redbreast," when speaking with a layperson because those are the colloquial English names for the European robin, but an amateur ornithologist or "birdwatcher" who referred to it in a conversation with other ornithologists or knowledgeable birdwatchers as simply a robin would, by their failure to employ proper nomenclature, betray their lack of knowledge and sophistication concerning the subject matter being discussed.  

 

To put a finer point on it, there is also an American robin, which has the taxonomic name of Turdus migratorius. Even though it's properly called a a "robin" or "robin redbreast" in colloquial American English, it's taxonomic name identifies it as a member of the genus Turdus, while the European robin, is as clear from its taxonomic name, is a member of the genus Erithacus.  We know from these taxonomic names that the North American robin is a thrush, while the European robin is a chat, (although formerly classified as a thrush.)

 

 

North American robin:

 

  • Turdus-migratorius-002.jpg

 

Then there are 49 species in 19 genera of Australasian robins, also with a red breast, and also commonly called "robins." These are in the family Petroicidae, and unrelated to either the North American or European "robins."

 

Petroica boodang male - Knocklofty.jpg
 
So, if a birdwatcher shows up to an international conference of ornithologists and starts pontificating about "robins," they are not likely to be taken too seriously, just as someone who aspires to being taken seriously by mariners and maritime historians will probably be disappointed with the reception they get when they use the term "tall ships." Context is everything.  As with birds, in a serious discussion about maritime subjects, proper use of the nomenclature makes a difference. 
 
BTW, I don't know about your side of the Pond, but over here in the USA we've got lots of people who tar their hair, get covered in crude tattoos and walk with knuckles dragging on the ground and nobody thinks they know squat about ships and the sea, or much else for that matter. :D
 
 

'excuses for imprecise speech'.

Trying to remain light-hearted on the subject, it's a bit rich, an American telling an Englishman about the use of the English language LOL.

I stand by my original comment. However this is the season of forgiveness ...............hands across the water and all that.

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Never sailed on a ‚tall-ship‘ (which indeed is an inflationary expression today, also applied to small two-masted schooners and such). However, with my limited experience of belaying man-made fibre ropes on cleats, I found that things get rarely moving before only one figure of eight is left.

cleats are different, because they wedge the rope more, but I doubt, that a third figure of eight makes any difference. The only reason I can see is that a locking hitch is avoided (which can be ver difficult to cast loose, when the ropes are frozen), because it keeps down due to its own weight.

Having learned to sail before getting into serious model building, it was always logic to me to measure out the lengths of rope  so that the tackles could be worked. I then sometimes cheat by cutting it in order to put it on as a separate coil, which makes things more manageable.

 

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2 hours ago, Bob Cleek said:

over here in the USA we've got lots of people who tar their hair, get covered in crude tattoos and walk with knuckles dragging on the ground

I dated a girl that fits that description. Name was Robin but everybody called her Bob. Not exactly sure what attraction I saw in her,  her crooked smile, the glint in her eyes that she got after a couple of drinks, or maybe it was the way she handled herself with a belay pin in one of the many bar fights at the Tall Ship Lounge where I hung out with old salts that sang sea shanties till the wee hours of the morning..........but then I digress

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7 hours ago, shipman said:

Trying to remain light-hearted on the subject, it's a bit rich, an American telling an Englishman about the use of the English language LOL.

I stand by my original comment. However this is the season of forgiveness ...............hands across the water and all that.

Just a bit of semantic sparring in good fun. Given the politics of the moment, it would seem neither the US nor England can justify riding a high horse! :D 

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6 minutes ago, Bob Cleek said:

Just a bit of semantic sparring in good fun. Given the politics of the moment, it would seem neither the US nor England can justify riding a high horse! :D 

You aren't so bad, Bob! (no matter what they say)

'Going to hell in a handcart' is a phrase that comes to mind.

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1 hour ago, Bob Cleek said:

Thanks! I'm saving your post to show to my wife! :D

 

Yep, tell her I'll be over tonight LOL.

We'd better get back to something more constructive on this forum. People are beginning to talk.

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