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HMS Speedy by Delf - Vanguard Models - Scale 1:64 - Master Shipwright edition


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2 hours ago, DelF said:

I was wondering what put you off 

 

Derek 

First off I don't like the end appearance, my personal preference.  Historical accuracy aside the copper draws my attention way too much over the beauty of the model, its lines and all the detail I put into it from furniture to rigging are muffled by the copper hull. It is what you notice first and, again in my opinion, not what I want to see. The white hull just looks so much more like an elegant model sitting on my shelf.  I'm not sailing it anywhere, its one aspect of historical accuracy I don't feel I need to have done the job right.  

 

However in the case of the Vanguard (I also coppered my Pickle) it was the incredible tediousness of placing one plate after another after another in one line after another after another.  I actually stopped for almost a year after coppering the port side before starting starboard. I just lost interest in modeling and did I mention how tedious it is on a large ship. I won't be coppering Speedy, I hope it to join Pegasus and Granado in my study bookshelves, with its white hull.

 

Hope that helps.

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23 hours ago, glennard2523 said:

I had over 3000 copper plates to fit when I built Caldercraft HMS Victory. It was quite time consuming but looked really good when completed.

 

Same ship I did, it does look ok on the Vanguard - just not for me on smaller ships. I'm very happy I didn't do my Pegasus.  I'm also happy I didn't count the plates. 🙂

But as I said, really a matter of personal choice.

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I coppered both my Victory and Prince de Neufchatel with copper tape.

 

The only thing that I wish I had done different with the Victory is that I should have bought new tape and not secondhand tape.  It didn’t stick particularly well.

 

It was much easier to copper the Prince de Neufchatel.

Edited by GrandpaPhil
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Not an update as such -second planking progresses slowly but steadily - but I thought I'd share my one aspect of my approach to plank bending:

 

IMG_1494.thumb.JPG.0ab556747e8912ac0fdc72f0ffa8f53e.JPG

As you can see, I'm using Chuck's edge bending method, but instead of doing one plank at a time I'm doing two. I've been trying to work as symmetrically as possible, port and starboard, so the tapering, the point of maximum bend, and the amount of bending should be the same on both sides. Obviously the two planks have to point in opposite directions to bend correctly as they are mirror images of each other, but so long as you put a little arrow indicating the position and direction of bend on each plank (as per Chuck's videos) you can't go wrong. 

 

I like to leave the planks in the jig for some time to ensure the bend is 'set', so doing two at once saves considerable time. Equally important, the method seems to work just as well with two in the jig as with one.

 

Derek

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25 minutes ago, DelF said:

Not an update as such -second planking progresses slowly but steadily - but I thought I'd share my one aspect of my approach to plank bending:

 

IMG_1494.thumb.JPG.0ab556747e8912ac0fdc72f0ffa8f53e.JPG

As you can see, I'm using Chuck's edge bending method, but instead of doing one plank at a time I'm doing two. I've been trying to work as symmetrically as possible, port and starboard, so the tapering, the point of maximum bend, and the amount of bending should be the same on both sides. Obviously the two planks have to point in opposite directions to bend correctly as they are mirror images of each other, but so long as you put a little arrow indicating the position and direction of bend on each plank (as per Chuck's videos) you can't go wrong. 

 

I like to leave the planks in the jig for some time to ensure the bend is 'set', so doing two at once saves considerable time. Equally important, the method seems to work just as well with two in the jig as with one.

 

Derek

Nice idea, bending two planks at the same time.

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On 2/25/2020 at 2:30 PM, glbarlow said:

First off I don't like the end appearance

Thanks - I understand your points. I still think I’ll copper Speedy, if only because it’ll be a first for me and I’d like to try it at least once. Also because Chris has gone to the trouble of producing the copper it would seem a shame not to use it. 


Meanwhile the second planking proceeds. Slowly!

 

Derek

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8 minutes ago, SpyGlass said:

Just a query Derek - where on the build do you intend putting these planks.

I have just been planning out my planking and I cant actually cant see any area which requires such a quite extreme bend.

Hi Spyglass 

 

They’re for the bow area. They may look like severe curves but they fit well. The planks always ‘relax’ a bit when released from the jig, so the actual curve you end up with is slightly less:

88FBDD57-6B5E-4A99-86F0-1596F1BAACB4.thumb.jpeg.23247ff9b31ed5dc624ac171a5bdfe16.jpeg
The important thing is to play around with the degree of bending until the plank sits flat on the hull and snug against the previous strake. I had to play around with the first couple of planks until I got it right, but it’s easy enough to re-bend a plank until it fits. Hope this helps. 
 

Derek

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On 2/27/2020 at 11:09 AM, DelF said:

you can't go wrong. 

Famous last words! The next pair of planks after I wrote this I managed to bend the wrong way, despite drawing arrows on them  pointing the right way. So much for slow and careful; at least it was easy to put right.

 

Derek

Edited by DelF
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Humm I think we may just have different approaches - I would normally handle such bends by tapering or maybe even a spot of spiling.

Not that I have any problem with side bending in itself - especially for first planking.

 

But i have just run out a set of strips and I really cant figure where that bend would sit - unless you are ending some planks against the side of others.

Put me out of my misery can you tell - or show  -where its goes ?

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2 hours ago, DelF said:

Famous last words! The next pair of planks after I wrote this I managed to bend the wrong way, despite drawing arrows on them  pointing the right way. So much for slow and careful; at leasdt it was easy to put right.

 

Derek

They didn't fit on the other side?  😄

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25 minutes ago, SpyGlass said:

I really cant figure where that bend would sit

You seem to be familiar with spilling..  You might try this:

Take a piece of masking tape and lay it lengthwise on a plank that is on the ship, preferably one that butts up against the stem.  Trace the outline of the plank onto the tape.  Lay the tape out flat, and you should see how the plank is bent.

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1 hour ago, SpyGlass said:

Humm I think we may just have different approaches - I would normally handle such bends by tapering or maybe even a spot of spiling.

Not that I have any problem with side bending in itself - especially for first planking.

 

But i have just run out a set of strips and I really cant figure where that bend would sit - unless you are ending some planks against the side of others.

Put me out of my misery can you tell - or show  -where its goes ?

Watch chucks videos on YouTube of planking the Winchelsea, he explains it perfectly and how to measure the bend etc, really does make life much easier @Chuck I have always used a heat gun on the hull, but chucks approach simplifies everything, they can also be found on the cheerful and Winchelsea logs

Regards

Paul 

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I hardly dare whisper it here but i dont totally think that Chucks method is the absolute best - there are many approaches - some prefer one and some another   shall we say more traditional , routes.

  I have tried out Chucks method several times over the years and  it just doesnt suit me - that has of course nothing to do with his preference for CA, a tube of which I am not safe with😀  .

But it works very well indeed for some.  Each to his own.

 

I prefer to follow the practice of actual ships builders - if it really needs a bend either grow a tree that shape  - or steam shape it by some method -  kettle, microwave with damp towel, steam tube .....

 

(Just a note for all those offering advice - I have built passable models for some 40years - until my poor old hands started to fail, I am totally familar with planking measurements, layout lines and spiling and and and... - just fairly useless at times in actual doing it but that is a different story)

 

But despite some accumulated knowledge -I STILL cant see where that plank goes !   A pic might show me where I maybe havent grasped something   perhaps the bend is actually quite modest

And when I lay the planks out on the temporary build hull they run fairly cleanly without  any very large sideways bends needed  .

 

Oh just a note on a remark earlier on - I dont think it meant one shouldnt have any stealers at the stern- just not triangular ones. They should be ended by notching into an adjacent strip not with a point.  But I must admit most of my first planking does tend to have a few points in it - but  I try to avoid them for second planking

Edited by SpyGlass
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2 hours ago, SpyGlass said:

Put me out of my misery can you tell - or show  -where its goes ?

This photo shows the bow area where these planks go:

IMG_1440.thumb.JPG.b812189467e5856b48387db8a02c7599.JPG

Apart from the first two (wale) planks, the rest are all tapered and bent to the same degree. I know it probably doesn't look great, but this is actually neater than I've managed to achieve on other builds. The planks are all sitting flat to the hull and snug against their neighbours. Hopefully they'll sand well. 

 

This discussion just illustrates that there are different ways to achieve the same ends. I'm sure edge bending isn't the last word in planking, but I find it a relatively easy and quick way to achieve reasonable results. I think if I ever get to grips with the Winchelsea model with its single planking, I'll have to up my game and master all the necessary skills, including spiling. 

 

Derek

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Well those seem to be fitting fine -  so cant argue with that. 

I have just run a strip along the gunport marks with no edge bend but a fair degree of twist and it also sits quite well - I think i shall just have to be patient till I can get my hands on some proper tools and clamps and see what the practical reality is for me.

 

All my tools and bits are in store and I thought you might be amused at my  present "work bench"- a spare bed in the temporary accommodation while I await my new house - just a couple of weeks now I hope!!

workbench.thumb.jpg.5a2837133c3a7ab0c876c07be1439b45.jpg

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On 2/27/2020 at 12:18 PM, SpyGlass said:

Humm I think we may just have different approaches - I would normally handle such bends by tapering or maybe even a spot of spiling.

You have to try this to see how well it works. I still taper the planks based on the measurements, this doesn’t replace that. As we know the bow curves both in and down. You probably, like I used to, achieve this double curve by soaking and twisting. The bent plank looks weird by itself but it lays on to the double curve perfectly. It takes a little practice but once you learn it it’s all you’ll ever do. The “traditional” way leads to warping and swelling, this way leads to perfect fits around the bow and stern. It’s appropriate to use on any model with a bow. Watch Chuck’s videos for more on how. I actually got more from when he’s at a workshop. 

 

You can view my gallery photos, I did ok with the old way on all those models, this way is just so much better for me. That said, to each his own way. Whatever makes you happy.

 

Sorry to hijack your log Derek, but here's a photo of my little cutter project underway.  I don't think I'd get such a nice even upsweep of the planks using my old method. The Lady Nelson has even less bow curve than Speedy.  I started bending and tapering at the first walnut plank below the wales. The counter-intuitive thing is you bend the plank down and as a result it curves up with the double curve of the bow. (Chuck should give me a marketing credit:-)

plank bending-1834.jpg

Edited by glbarlow
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Well your results speak for themselves Glenn. ( which cutter is that and whats the finish - nice ! ?)

Mind I am awaiting the good old purist to pop up and say we should cut the shape from wider stock !!

 

I have tried the Chuck method  a couple of times and it just doesnt work for me. But  Chucks method breaks down into several steps.

 

Side bending by any method I have no problem at all with, my real query here was that the degree of bend showing in the pics I couldnt match anywhere on the hull.

I am happy that the pics actually over emphasised the amount of bend so I am content.

 

But shaping onto the hull and fixing with CA is just  not skills I possess. I prefer the fully shaped wood in my hands  as I come to fix so that it needs little clamping - just enough to hold the glue to take.

Because I like to chamfer all my strips for a close fit which i think you can only do by offering a preformed strip up and adjusting the chamfer as required.

MIND it has occurred to me - though no one has actually commented  -is that I am not doing marquetry but building models of ships and the planking joins dont have to be invisibel!

I am probably too old to give up "soak /steam ,twist  and chamfer". If the stock is given time to dry properly, I have never had any issues with swelling and warping by it does require  patience and time which not everyone has. 

But good results by any means are to be admired and there have been some nice ones shown here!

 

(Can i just get my old anti CA dig in - I really dont have faith that CA will age well - the joints are inherently somewhat brittle and I have seen some evidence of this in my oldest models using it. I believe that is why many museums will not approve its use- though now the Admiral chimed if with " it doesnt matter you old duffer you will be long gone before that shows up ")

Sorry for diverting your log Derek !

 

AHHHG - just realised that with MDF keel and BHs - it may not be quite such a good idea leaving soaked strips to dry to shape on the hull  - so I may have to foresake my kettle and seek a drier method ( microwave wrapped it a damp kitchen roll? - worked before but the admiral does grumble !)

 

Edited by SpyGlass
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13 hours ago, glbarlow said:

 

Sorry to hijack your log Derek,

 

31 minutes ago, SpyGlass said:

Sorry for diverting your log Derek !

 

Don't apologise gents! This debate is interesting and enlightening for the less experienced amongst us - and I include myself in that category. Your cutter looks great Glenn, besides being a good advert for edge bending.

 

SpyGlass - during first planking I dried several planks on the MDF bulkheads. Ignorance on my part, as I wasn't aware of potential problems. However the bulkheads suffered no ill effects that I could see. That may be because I dried them with a hot air gun rather than leaving them wet on the bulkheads for any length of time. Equally, it might be because Chris has supplied quality MDF. Either way, rather than follow my example you might want to experiment on a spare piece of MDF from the kit first.

 

Anyway - back to Speedy. I've finally finished the second planking.

IMG_1504.thumb.JPG.1f9e042c59e7782dfccf3bef6564b341.JPG

On the positive side, tapering and edge bending got every plank to sit flat on the hull and snug against its neighbours. Port and starboard sides ended up almost perfectly symmetrical - the final plank on one side was about 0.25mm wider than the other.

 

On the negative side, I did not enjoy working with CA. Although it made the work go faster and removed the need for pins and clamps, I could not avoid getting it in places I didn't want it, including the front faces of planks and my fingers. Also, the knowledge that large areas of the hull will be coppered allows you to get away with stealers and other triangular fillers - OK for this build but probably a bad habit to get into.

 

Having said that, I'm pleased with the result and am reasonably confident the hull will be fine after sanding. I'm not out to beat speed records on this build so I might take a short break now, and perhaps get on with the Pinnace.

 

Derek

 

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The hull looks fine to me  even if you were not going to copper - in fact could I suggest you could even pause for a minute after sanding and try the effect of a bit of stain varnish or wax before you copper - you might like it and its shame to cover up what is  some nice planking.

 

I have the mdf /damp strips experiments underway as i write.

I was privately informed as to a solution to the  MDF/ wet strip issue which i was aware of but forgotten  - put cling film on the BH it doesnt make any difference to the shaping but  protects the MDF. o i am trying that too.

 

Quite apart from my aging doubts about CA , I follow your experience - i stick myself to everything in sight and possibly more importantly I find its stains more than i like - PVA and a damp cloth for wipe down is my preference. 

 

 

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2 hours ago, DelF said:

Anyway - back to Speedy. I've finally finished the second planking.

Your planking looks great, did you bend the planks ...LOL, sorry couldn’t resist.

 

I’m just a CA guy I guess, but like plank bending, to each his own. That’s why this is fun, we can do whatever we want and have a pleasant discussion about it.  
 

Don’t be gone long Derek, you may find we’re using your log to discuss the merits of fine scotch 😂

Edited by glbarlow
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3 hours ago, SpyGlass said:

which cutter is that and whats the finish

It’s another Chris Watson design (he says from decades ago), the Lady Nelson. I started after a 3 year layoff before I knew about Vanguard models. It’s basic, but fun.  The finish is Satin water based Poly.

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