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popeye the sailor

Revell B 17 'Memphis Belle' - 1:72 by Popeye the Sailor

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thanks OC..........it is what it is.  as I said.......it must have been the brand of masking.   I've seen no one else have this trouble,  but then again,  they aren't using enamels.  the thinner is what caused the problem.  it is nice that at least I was able to repair one of the pieces of glass as well as I did.   live and learn.......always buy the good stuff of brands you've used before.  of course this is my first time using them,  so what did I know?

 

I did some thinking about the ammo belts for the waist guns.......the port side is an ill fit as well.   then it hit me.....Mark sent me those aftermarket guns.  the guns and the ammo boxes supplied in the kit are pretty good.  so I took my snippers and cut off the belt on the starboard gun.  I had to trim the aftermarket belt down,  but it worked out very well........took hardly any effort at all. :) 

335940222_1.jpg.19c8e22889f91864eb7fe206091eb18b.jpg  1990655907_2.jpg.d5335a55a61b0ad02b56ac7aa2314f57.jpg

with this a success.......I did it to the port gun too.

1749309673_3.jpg.83529cf93c3e97acb156bcc48f56ae8f.jpg

it's supposed to wrap around the gun and feed on the same side as the starboard gun.   the belt was cut off of the box and it was cemented in place.........about the same location as the other one.

2079253661_4.jpg.cf78830ad397d94a465168bc31bf45ea.jpg

I didn't need to trim the belt........tried to give it a natural 'hang'

1901848786_5.jpg.087bf82f060a0a5e8d2bcd845f4d2cdf.jpg  1416518086_6.jpg.fb810064784c474ef37c42c10f942fcc.jpg

again....a big thanks to Mark for sending me those guns............now I'm happy! :) 

 

 

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Looks good, Denis.  I'm happy they worked out for you.  

 

Side note, I find it strange that the .50's were only set up to feed from the left.  If I'm remembering correctly, with minimal effort (maybe on the part of the armorer) they could feed from either side.

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thanks Mark..........that's the way the parts were intended.  thinking mechanically.....I would think that the mechanism shuttled the belt only in one direction,  no matter how the gun was placed.   same with shotguns and rifles with auto eject.......you never see a shell casing eject from both sides.  I didn't want to change the natural order of things........if that's the way they have it.......  it's just nice I could make it work  ;)   I have two other belts that came along with the kit you sent me.........the kit comes with enough armament.  I'll find a good place for the rest of the kit  :)   a huge thank you  again :) 

 

let's see........I think the only thing left are the two machine guns in the nose {sides}.........the nose glass can be after.  I think I can join the two halves together and close her up..........{celebrate like Tom did hee.....hee}.  things will move quickly after that  ;)   I have some chores to do first though.......then fun time :)   thanks also to those who hit the like button!

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Dennis, I found these from a tour of the CAF's B-17 G with staggered gun position with the 600 rnd ammo boxes...

 

Port side looking forward....

b17-35.jpg.ef26bf19c651c77a484ac5c971b35cd5.jpg

Starboard side looking aft...

b17-36.jpg.461ac0e635fe9be54b4da89c3c84ad2b.jpg

Overview looking aft....

b17-38.jpg.85075d4c3245bfdf3b15191e0dc36b1c.jpg

As a comparison, here is the early B-17 waist position using 200 rnd ammo cans....

gunners.jpg.7a4c279089f8b88fa4e5992fbae5410e.jpg

Of course there is pics of everything you would want to know about the Belle...

 

NMUSAF

 

380 shots of her some pretty good colors also......

 

The Belle was an "F" model didn't have staggered waist guns...

 

And another thing about the guns, the .50's used on the aircraft gunner positions on heavy bombers were not standard M2HB's... they could feed from any direction... on this ship I gave pics for above the port side gun feeds from the bottom, the starboard side gun feeds from the left side and if you look closely at the the bottom pic, the ones with ammo cans, they are feeding from opposite sides....

 

I don't know if that is going to help at this point.... I've been kinda out of the loop here for a while..... (sorry bout that My friend) The waist guns on the Belle fed from opposite sides the ammo boxes being astern of the guns. (like the "F" model with ammo cans) She did have the 600 rnd ammo boxes though

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Looking really great Popeye. If you are still contemplating painting the inside of the framework on the ball turret you might consider a (IMHO) neat technique that another member here on MSW did to the turret on their TBF Avenger. He masked the glass and then painted the inside color on the outside of the frame. The second coat was the outside color. Result, it looks like you painted the inside the color it should be. 

I don't remember the Avenger model builder's name.

 

Cheers, Harley

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that was Craig Harley........I did that with some of the glass.   I used a poor masking set.......that or they don't work well with enamels.  now if you saw when I added the panels on the sides of the nose....they had to be painted with the Chromate first,  or the drab would be seen

1725238384_4.jpg.6557a8bcd0d1e8f216631a49c082fd9e.jpgnote the open panels at the nose

2027194481_16.jpg.e20056aeef29ee255ae31eb42ef28421.jpgpart of the panel can be seen here.  it is glossy,  but it shows the Chromate as the undercoat.

at 1:72......to me,  it's not as critical.......but thought does need to be done in deciding where the most probable areas are.  then it could be done.......that's what I did here.   I believe the Avenger was a 1:48 scale model,  and how critical it is to use the method.   Craig passed on a very good tip here.....I would never had thought of it.......first time I used a masking set too.  a huge thanks! :) 

 

that has to be an oxygen tank on the shaft of the ball turret.........something the kit doesn't show.  yea,  these are are not staggered windows at the waist.  I'm not up on these types of guns,  but I have a hard time thinking that the mechanism is universal.......unless the gun is built right or left,  the feed would only go in one direction.   it would be like trying to feed something into the side that wants to kick it out..........going in the out door.

    all conjecture aside,  the kit had them that way,  so that's the way I did 'em.   nice pictures though........I appreciate you posting them :) ........the last photo shows them with attached ammo boxes.......those are left and right handed guns.   an interesting note....this kit has an option to add a gun at the navigator's window at the top of the fuselage.   if the Belle had it,  I would have added it.

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haven't done anything today.......I dug up the stump,  rescreened the back door,  put the admiral's flagpole back up {when I originally put it up,  a rogue wing gust blew it and the mounting off the house the same day},  and I mowed the lawns.  now we are going to go and see the grandkids....after three months of covid rule.   we will be outside,  so it should be good.........I have a pack of masks in the car anyway,  in case we need them.  I hope to get something done later on..........I'll post if I do  ;)   pinkie swear :ph34r:

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15 minutes ago, popeye the sailor said:

that has to be an oxygen tank on the shaft of the ball turret.........something the kit doesn't show.  yea,  these are are not staggered windows at the waist.  I'm not up on these types of guns,  but I have a hard time thinking that the mechanism is universal.......unless the gun is built right or left,  the feed would only go in one direction.   it would be like trying to feed something into the side that wants to kick it out..........going in the out door.

    all conjecture aside,  the kit had them that way,  so that's the way I did 'em.   nice pictures though........I appreciate you posting them :) ........the last photo shows them with attached ammo boxes.......those are left and right handed guns.   an interesting note....this kit has an option to add a gun at the navigator's window at the top of the fuselage.   if the Belle had it,  I would have added it.

Yeah, it was an oxygen tank, very clear along with several closeup high res shots of the ball turret on the AF Museum's website.... (the top turret had one also) The fact that the guns were not universal is true, they were built in right and left hand versions..... As far as the navigators gun position the Belle did have one, it shows on the war bond tour they did after sending her home and on the museums aircraft restoration....

 

Restoration....

2020-05-28_12h57_49.png.5d68bd1cff55b8103146899bb0f0e8f4.png

War Bond Tour....

2020-05-28_12h59_49.png.20218cd415de62177715f01f02e960f1.png

Dedication ceremony during tour....

2020-05-28_13h00_35.png.fa0a8d19c4dd11db80abe3845ef81c92.png

Restoration work....

2020-05-28_13h06_31.png.6e35e548741564d100ca615b2b4ce67c.png

There are several more shots of it on the museums restoration site....

 

The Dorsal gun position was seldom used cause it afforded a very poor angle of fire and little to no visability to attacking aircraft...  But the Belle had one....

 

EG

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Harley's right.... I'll have to do some digging as I don't recall if we had to flip a lever or what to change the feed side.   I usually had right side so didn't have to change it but then, I just helped haul the guns out to the bird then helped the 1st mech mount them.  Didn't pay a whole lot of attention, I just followed orders.   Did a lot of this:mili2.gif.ac79e17af0ada1e00f2e1d3ed237d18f.gifand sometimes this: p0237.gif.c3aa9396141524b653008f57a1419be6.gif 

p0204.gif

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1 hour ago, mtaylor said:

Harley's right.... I'll have to do some digging as I don't recall if we had to flip a lever or what to change the feed side.   I usually had right side so didn't have to change it but then, I just helped haul the guns out to the bird then helped the 1st mech mount them.  Didn't pay a whole lot of attention, I just followed orders.   Did a lot of this:mili2.gif.ac79e17af0ada1e00f2e1d3ed237d18f.gifand sometimes this: p0237.gif.c3aa9396141524b653008f57a1419be6.gif 

p0204.gif

From Wiki.....

 

Because the M2 was designed to operate in many configurations, it can be adapted to feed from the left or right side of the weapon by exchanging the belt-holding pawls, and the front and rear cartridge stops (three-piece set to include link stripper), then reversing the bolt switch. The operator must also convert the top-cover belt feed slide assembly from left to right hand feed as well as the spring and plunger in the feed arm. This will take a well trained individual less than two minutes to perform. The charging assembly may be changed from left to right hand charge. A right hand charging handle spring, lock wire and a little "know-how" are all that are required to accomplish this. The M2 can be battle-ready and easily interchanged if it is preemptively fitted with a retracting slide assembly on both sides of the weapon system. This eliminates the need to have the weapon removed from service to accomplish this task.

 

Also the USAAF aircraft version used in WWII, the lightweight .50 cal AN/M2, fired at 800 to 1200 rpm through a 36" barrel....

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so  most of the modifications were done in the field.   not say'in I disputed it,  but I am mechanically inclined.......it's functionally impossible to change direction on anything that is built to go only one way.......not without modification.  it is after all the mother of invention  ;) 

 

as for the dorsal gun.......the instructions don't show it,  and I haven't seen any pictures of her with one.  it wouldn't be hard to change though.......I have the parts for the variant.  can't go by the instructions though...they show the wheel covers,  but no parts to facilitate it.....ie......a hub cap.  I chose the navigator's glass per the diagrams.  I do notice though that where the gun would be located,  I see the word 'Mom'......noe you have me wondering.   I looked again at the site I have on her,  and they show the picture of her at the museum

Memphis_Belle_-_180514-F-IO108-003.thumb.jpg.fc5526859296ca28e2223a519618d39a.jpg

if you look close.......there it is {I use the close up mode to really see it}.   I also changed the nose glass too,  because I felt that the guns were too far apart and not in the correct place.  the one I'm using looks like it does in the picture.  I see no painted frame either,  so I won't do what I did to the original one I was going to use.  

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Actually brother, the reversal of feed is written into the TM on the gun.... it was designed that way.... After Browning died, (in 1926) Dr. S.H. Green studied the design problems of the M1921 and the needs of the armed services. Between 1927 and 1932, he came up with a single receiver design that could be turned into seven different types of .50 caliber machine guns by using different jackets, barrels, and other components. The new receiver allowed right or left side feed. In 1933, Colt manufactured several prototype Browning machine guns (including what would be known as the M1921A1 and M1921E2). With support from the Navy, Colt started manufacturing the M2 in 1933. The design changes made the gun more useful to the armed forces (USAAF & US Navy) and hence more efficient a weapon. (allowing for turreted dual or quad mounts and wing mountings for aircraft and multi barrel tub mountings for ships) The US Army was happy to have an excellent man portable heavy machine gun capable of destroying the tanks and armored cars then in existence.... (paraphrased from wiki)

 

I already posted museum pics before showing it, and a couple showing the open navigators gun position during it's tour, they wouldn't open that window without the gun there.... (it was easier to hang the gun out the open window allowing easier movement through the airplane, without the gun there was no need to open the window) in a lot of combat aircraft, they just removed the window altogether in actual operations it was easier than opening and closing it all the time.

 

Either way brother, it is a beautiful build... Coming out nice.... (and yeah kits sometimes just don't get the easy stuff right, and we must remember that the kit is a Revell Germany reboxing and redecaling of the standard B-17F kit) So there will be parts missing and parts there they think shouldn't be used and lots of optional parts. What the heck, it's a great kit cause of that, you can build almost any B-17F version from it, early to late....

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In 1943, William Wyler did a documentary on the Memphis Belle recording it's 25th mission.... they actually did another B-17 as a movie photo plane and had it escort the Belle through the mission....

 

Here is a screen cap from that documentary of her taking off on that final mission....

vlcsnap-00001.jpg.2f604600784722c33db9257d0cbbba85.jpg

She had the dorsal gun.... (check out that fresh patch on her vertical stabilizer, not quite covered in fresh OD green))

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Great work Denis

I believe all of the guns on the Memphis Belle were "named." As an example the tail guns were named "Pete and Repeat." The nose guns were "Dinny and Janie"' It appears that naming the guns was somewhat common on B-17s.

 

Interesting film EG

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28 minutes ago, lmagna said:

Interesting film EG

I thought it was, and it wasn't the only one that the USAAF allowed to be made. the 1st Motion Picture Unit made over 300 films for the air corps during the fight over Germany...

 

Nara archives 1st Motion Picture Unit

 

Capt. Clark Gable made over a dozen until he was caught sneaking aboard actual, combat flights and he was sent home..... Jimmy Stewart started out making training films till he threatened to quit if they didn't send him to a regular unit... (he flew B-24's and B-17's in actual combat) As a pilot, section leader, squadron commander and wing commander eventually tallying over 50 missions over Germany... He retired as a Brigadier General in the Air Force after assisting in the transfer and introduction of B-47's and yes they made a movie about it also... He flew the B-29 the B-50, the B-36 and the B-47 operationally....

 

The Airforce has not been shy about getting it's message out there..... at least not in the '40's thru '60's....

 

That movie does still touch you at points.........

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just a short update at the moment......done during the work week.  these are the parts I will add to the plane:

75959588_1.jpg.5909f39f5eed43c950d24f69457fbb3f.jpgI had glued that small part on the other navigator's window....I had to remove it to put it on this one.

the guns were added to the nose of the fuselage,  the last bits to be added before closing it up.  the deed is done :) 

1526202698_2.jpg.7a5a0c904f2526548c87a93d9c186170.jpg

I should have done a close up of the waist guns.......they show quite well with the belt additions.  the tail is on as well.  it can't be seen here,  but the belly turret sticks out quite a bit...... must be in the lowered position.  I had painted the tail gunner's glass with the masking,  but it came out foggy.   I lightly scraped off most of it and painted it freehand.....I also did the navigator's window too.   it came out reasonably well......I used a very fine tipped brush.

828235803_3.jpg.c3ccbeb0fb5fb169461b54c8dcebf8f3.jpg

the cockpit glass looked kinda light too,  but I chose not to touch it up since it came out better than the rest.  I trimmed it to fit and am impressed with how good it looks.   I'm gonna start adding to the fuselage.......

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Your bomber is coming along nicely. I look forward to seeing this once the wings are added. I'm not sure if you mentioned it in your entries, are you using an airbrush or sprays and bottles on your projects? 

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thanks Robert......I didn't do anything to her yesterday.......I was playing with something else :blush:  { damn my MDD........Model Distraction Disorder}.   the wing surfaces were all done with airbrush........I got impatient waiting to get thinner,  so I painted the fuselage {upper and lower surfaces} with a brush.  at one point in time,  I had given up the airbrush,  thinking that they were too much of a bother for the tasks that were small.  but,  since I got into building wooden boats,  I have great need for it.  large surfaces are a killer with a brush.  now a days,  I juggle both.

 

I'm getting there........I've already seen her with the wings {dry fit}..........I'm happy.

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the update has grown,  so I better post it before it gets too large ;)   

 

now that the fuselage is assembled,  I can start to add what has already been done.  the tail glass has been fixed,  but needed to be fitted still.  it is now in place.  it still rises up into the rudder area.......I'm hoping that it isn't going to hinder the addition of it.

131936700_1.jpg.754626aa152f691f30d1c8c785167f22.jpg

the navigator glass was added next,  along with the gun that sticks out.  

649130604_2.jpg.e912b41560186a53bb6d071bb2f0bcb6.jpg  987304842_3.jpg.de1a6dd866db63d5491ac83b28b8167a.jpg

the pivot that the gun sits on can be seen.   the glass had to be painted by hand....surprised with how well it came out.  the nose is going to need some work.........I found that these two openings are not seen on the Memphis Belle.......baffled to see that there are four silver rectangles there instead.  the cockpit glass has been cemented in place.

176856018_4.jpg.91b853240cfa46c694e92b349b95f390.jpg

here a shot of the waist gun I promised you.

210088960_5.jpg.22ec9142d5959affb16e8e7e7f4bab98.jpg

It will be easier to decal her while at this stage.....and so I started........

1823585859_6.jpg.d9ae2e40b18413a7e86a91cd9f957de2.jpg  1389970551_7.jpg.8a2c724c254e696334d79771030919b3.jpg

bad thing here........the port side is backwards.   personally,  I think that the starboard side is too,  but this is how the instructions show it.  I've checked pictures and seen that the starboard side is correct.  I will change the port side.......not a big deal,  because if they get damaged,  I have that sheet of letters.   Egilman pointed out that blotched out field on the horizontal stabilizer { rudder fin}........that was an 'A'.......not in the traditional triangular field shown on other squadron planes.  I haven't been able to find out why it was removed.......I'll keep looking because it's an interesting feature that could be added,  as I did on the Wulfe Hound.  later it was found to be a useless attempt,  since the swastika appears out of scale and covers it.......oh well.    the stabilizers and rudder were added next.

2027800903_8.jpg.98aad17faa6a6644bb20a1f60643c52e.jpg

oops!  **spoiler alert**

 

ahhh-hmmmmmmmm.....moving on...... as you saw,  the starboard waist was called Virginia.........the port side was named Sally :) 

885713322_9.jpg.58087ae881c6619ded12c2566a8a19c0.jpg

I'll have the port decals fixed by the next update.

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Looking good, Denis. You'd think they had a good marking guide for this a/c, since it survived and came back to the States for bond tour, with all the photos those usually entailed. Oh, well.

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1 hour ago, Canute said:

Looking good, Denis. You'd think they had a good marking guide for this a/c, since it survived and came back to the States for bond tour, with all the photos those usually entailed. Oh, well.

Yeah there's plenty pf photographic evidence of what those marking were... the two letters "DF" were the wing/squadron identification code the "A" was the specific aircraft... They are read from the front of the airplane to the back.... It wasn't the first B-17 to make 25 missions, it was the first to do it and return to the US.... (Suzy-Q was the first) Major Wyler probably had a lot to do with convincing the brass for it's return to do a bond tour....

 

Beautiful work dennis, I didn't know that the vertical stabilize paint patch was covering over a different marking, I thought it was a battle damage repair.. It's one of the things I love about doing research, you always learn something new and you never know where you'r going to learn it...

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thanks all......it's been some good progress moving forward.  at the moment,  I'm trying to get more decals on her.   I'm finding the areas in question easier to handle.   looking in further on the vertical stabilizer,  I've yet to find another picture showing that painted over blotch.   I got a copy of the documentary {or the air force release} along with the Memphis Belle movie......I've yet to pull it back out to review it again.  I'm certain though that it was the 'A' code letter though.......there were a few planes to sport it along with the Bomber Group triangle.

 

the correction on the port letters......

1205207329_1.jpg.a9cd7f2bfac018fbb0bd0594f079e46b.jpgI was able to remove the decals and reposition them.

the glass parts were added to the top of her nose......there were other versions in the kit.   it looked terrible.....took a bit of work to get it straightened out.

109130962_2.jpg.f724cc7ec4dde4c3d67e9a9380ed484d.jpg

I'm still not completely happy with those side panels........terrible fit.   the insignias were added to the wings

272993697_3.jpg.6dba417d83f9dda764e2ec745b39c0f4.jpg

you might see other small decals her and there........there are quite a few to go yet.  her number was added to the vertical stabilizer.

1319865057_4.jpg.837cff9b30f8017de3ccaaaa3608ca53.jpg  1087391067_7.jpg.f7290b7c056f20a335abba09ffac1126.jpg

I added some decals at the nose.........I may remove the panels and try to repair them.  I've compounded the issue though....

2025896146_5.jpg.c2e97417dd2bc26cd8915258d129ce7e.jpg  1391790787_6.jpg.dbd0c667ae5758bdae8745282fcab5b3.jpg

a little more was done on top of the nose....after touch up paint,  I added the silver rectangular decals.......not sure what they are for.........fake windows perhaps.

163203994_8.jpg.cf5f49dbbcf77cc5a016578e857634a1.jpg

more soon......thanks for look'in in and the likes! :) 

 

#4.jpg

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