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Y.T.

Awful performance of Proxxon rotary tool FBS 115/E

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My rotary tool installed into Proxxon Drill Stand MB 140/a is having huge runout. Judging by my eye it is about 0.010” (0.25 mm) total.  I consider this is awful when tool is sold as “precision” tool. I had to install smaller diameter drills in order to get proper hole diameter. I had three jaw keyless chuck on it provided with tool. I resolved this issue by getting collets for tool holding. Now I can’t register any runout with my eye. See attached picture. Collet holder is on right and keyless chuck is on left- it is crap 💩

166F9F41-F033-459A-960E-65F061A67ED3.jpeg

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Maybe you should change the title to awful performance of proxxon 3 jaw chuck.

 

I recently purchased a proxxon rotary tool and MB200 drill press as wasnt happy with the Dremel tool runout i have.

 

I was disppointed also in the proxxon 3 jaw chuck but resolved as you say by using their collets...which in general for machine tools is more accurate but limited in available sizes.

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5 minutes ago, Captain Slog said:

Maybe you should change the title

 do not think so. I purchased whole tool with key-less chuck. It was sold as "precision" tool.

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You're dissing the tool based on a cheap accessory. Certainly for my tool i could have got it with chuck or collets and i chose poorly as wanted convenience which i wouldn't blame the tool for...But meh

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1 hour ago, Y.T. said:

keyless chuck is on left- it is crap

 When there is a big runout: the bit is inserted properly, you need to be very careful to have 0 runout.

Proxxon drill stand is not a precision tool by nature.

Collets are made to have no runout.

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1 hour ago, Gaetan Bordeleau said:

Proxxon drill stand is not a precision tool by nature.

With collets it is now for me a perfect precision tool.  

 

27 minutes ago, druxey said:

For small or precision work, always use collets!

Thanks druxey. Now I know. This is why I wrote this post. I wish sellers would explain in their sales advertising : collets- for precision; keyless chucks-kids toys🧸 

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50 minutes ago, Y.T. said:

keyless chucks-kids toys

you did not understand!

1 hour ago, druxey said:

For small or precision work, always use collets!

and when you do not have the right size collet...

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The 3 jaw drill chuck is just one of these EL-CHEAPO bits of junk, so you should get a lot of run-out if one of these is fitted.

 

It's NOT the Proxxon at all, it is a pretty good bit of gear, it's just the bit of 'cheap garbage' added to it.

 

If you want a good 3 jaw chuck, then look around and be willing to pay for it, as it will not be cheap.

 

 

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Electric-Grinder-Soft-Shaft-Small-Chuck-Three-Claw-Drill-Chuck-Hand-Grip-Chuck-L/193299021737?hash=item2d0184ffa9:m:mr9i0BZGvg6c20CY8BOvvkg

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12 hours ago, Gaetan Bordeleau said:

When there is a big runout: the bit is inserted properly, you need to be very careful to have 0 runout.

 

9 hours ago, Gaetan Bordeleau said:

you did not understand!

 Hi Gaetan, I am not sure what I did not understand. Do you imply there is some trick with "how" to install the drill into keyless chuck so one has zero runout? Please explain.

 

11 minutes ago, Kurt Johnson said:

So what would be the optimal chuck to use with a Proxxon when not using collets?

This is very good question. I doubt Proxxon rotary tool would be equipped with lowest quality chucks. I think a keyless chuck just cannot be a precision tool as advertised by Proxxon.

 

I also want to mention that I own Proxxon 28620 Flexishaft Micromot 110/ P. I had it installed into a keyless chuck on Proxxon rotary tool and I had a keyless chuck on the other end of it. Rotary tool was installed into Proxxon drill stand. Drill stand was mounted to heavy working desk with heavy wood screws. This contraption would vibrate and resonate at lowest RPMs so much the whole working desk was shaking. I put it away as not usable. Now with collets I may try and re-consider depending on results.

 

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Just to throw in my personal experience, I see two problems with Y.T.'s set up.

 

The first is the stand (although you may not have this particular problem with yours as you have not mentioned it). You have to check that the drill holder on the stand is absolutely vertical. Mine has in inbuilt problem in that although you can make it truly vertical by rotating it on its base, it cannot be rotated in the other axis (forward/back). My stand is about 1 degree out in that axis, so I had to put a shim between the rotating part and the main part. It now perfectly vertical in both axes.

 

The second problem is the 3-jaw chuck. It is really designed for the larger drills, and I cannot get anything under 0.6mm to be straight in it without a lot of fiddling (even though it claims to be able to cope with 0.3mm. So for drills less than 0.8mm I bought a micro mini drill chuck 0-0.8mm with a 1/8" Shank for £3 which works perfectly for my 0.4mm drills.

 

As so many have already suggested, I only use collets for everything above 1mm on the drill, since these were provided with the drill. The collet set is inexpensive if they were not provided with the drill, and the individual collets are very precise indeed up to 3.2mm. The drills that you can buy that have 2.35mm shanks and sizes between 0.5mm and 3.2mm are inexpensive, widely available and very precise when used with the appropriate Proxxon collet. For anything above 3.2mm, I use my normal electric drill. I also have ER16 collets for my Taig lathe which go down to 0.5mm, but I prefer to use the Proxxon drill whenever possible.

 

As for the drill itself, I have a Micromot 50 which I have been using both as a mill and drill since 2012 and it works absulutely brilliantly. In fact all my other Proxxon tools have been great (bench saw, scroll saw, sander, pen sander, tool holder, precision vice, x-y table and rotating vice), and they have a wonderful backup service as well. The only one that I now never use is that 3-jaw chuck!

 

So in answer to Kurt's question, and if you're using only the Proxxon drill, the optimal chuck depends on the size of the drill. Below 1mm I'd go for a drill chuck that covers 0-0.8mm with a 1/8" shank. Between 0.8 and 3.2mm I'd use the Proxxon collets with drills that have a 1/8" shank. Above that I'd either use a larger bench drill or a lathe with the appropriate collets.

 

Tony

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For the drill, a larger 3 jaw chuck which close to 0 and it is used with drill bits only.

 

For the milling, collets

 

For the hand drills, collets or 3 jaw chuck.   When possible use the collet and when no standard collet, a 3 jaw chuck has to be use. I use 2 types; 1 from Dremel and  1 from  Proxxon. I bought all these 3 jaw 10 or 20 years ago and paid around $30 for each. In a previous message from Greenie, he showed one for $2, which probably has no quality control. 

 

1 hour ago, Y.T. said:

Do you imply there is some trick with "how" to install the drill into keyless chuck so one has zero runout? Please explain.

3 jaw chucks are commonly used with lathes. there are cheap one for example $100 with a runout of few millimeters. There are also very precise one but you must add a zero to the price.

 

It is not that that there is a trick to fix the drill bit, but you must be very careful to insert the drill bit because it is very easy to misalign the bit. I did thousand of holes with this little 3 jaw chuck with success. 

Still today, it happens that I misalign the drill bit, then only 1 solution, reinstall.

The easiest way  for me is to close as much as possible the 3 jaw chuck and the insert the drill bit.

The easiest way to misalign for me  the drill bit is to insert the drill bit in a fully open  3 jaw chuck and then try to close it. Chances are that the drill bit will bit will be misalign because the jaw pressure on th drill bit will not be at the good place

IMG_3473.jpg

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1 hour ago, Gaetan Bordeleau said:

The easiest way  for me is to close as much as possible the 3 jaw chuck and the insert the drill bit.

The easiest way to misalign for me  the drill bit is to insert the drill bit in a fully open  3 jaw chuck and then try to close it.

 

2 hours ago, tkay11 said:

The first is the stand

 

2 hours ago, tkay11 said:

the optimal chuck depends on the size of the drill.

This is excellent advice. Also, you are not alone: most people learn how to get the best out of a tool after using (and mis-using) it many times.

I was amazed to find how much time an engineer friend spent setting up a pillar drill in his shop. I would have just opened the box and plugged it in but he spent a morning getting it level, checking the pillar for parallel movement and the table for flatness. After lunch, THEN he plugged it in, checked for runout and double checked all the work of the morning. About 4 o'clock he declared it 'fit for purpose'. No wonder he got better results than me.

Please don't be too hard on Proxxon. Put the chuck in a drawer until you have a job suited for it.

 

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The problem may not be the chuck as such, but the way how it is fitted to the spindle of the machine, This kind of drill-chuck is simply screwd on and there is no other centring, but through the thread. Threads are never as concentric as a taper (as for the collects). Threads need a bit of clearance between the male and the female parts, otherwise you couldn't screw it on. Good quality chucks (check out the prices for 'Albrecht' chucks) have a female (Morse or Jacobs) taper in the end that fits of the taper on the spindle of a drill. Very small drill chucks may also come on arbor that has a male taper at the end, fitting into the taper of the machine tool.

 

In essence, it is most likely not be the fault of the chuck as such, but due to the way it is mounted.

 

Proxxon do say in their catalogues that you should use collets for precision work. Every machine I bought actually came with a set of collets. Drill-chucks are for casual free-hand work with drill above 1 mm.

 

The cause of vibration in your flexible shaft arrangement may the flexible shaft as such. Essentially this is a hose in which a stiff wire-rope rotates. Better quality flexible shafts have ball bearings at both ends. However, the clearance between hose and wire-rope that is necessary for the shaft to bend, allows the wire-rope also to wip-lash. The wip-lashing movement depends on the radius of your bend and the speed at which you are running it, as well as the diameter and stiffness of the wire-rope. You may have experienced a resonance movement, i.e. the wire-rope develops a standing wave inside the hose, shaking it violently. Speeding up or slowing down should remedy that.

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Some time ago I bought a couple of cheap chucks from China. I fitted them on the Dremel and never used them again.

A month ago I bought the proxon precision chuck to use on my drill press with larger drills. I can confirm it runs true but is very large and heavy. Indeed, best to use good quality collets for precision work

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9 hours ago, Gaetan Bordeleau said:

easiest way to misalign for me  the drill bit is to insert the drill bit in a fully open  3 jaw chuck and then try to close it.

I was utterly surprised but Gaetan was absolutely right. It does matter how you close the 3 jaw chuck on the drill for its runout amount. There is a trick. I was able to get no runout on it when I snagged the jaws on the drill tight but still was able to move drill up and down with effort. Apparently jaws aligned themselves on the drill and I got no runout!!! Thanks Gaetan!

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@Y.T.: Yes, but you may find you can't do that with 0.3mm drills on the Proxxon chuck as it's not engineered to that level of precision -- although it's possible that some of these chucks can do it, mine can't.

 

Tony

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Mine can :) Although I prefer the collet at that size of drill.

(And I know from previous history that the wear and tear of the inside of the chuck will make that in the end  drills this small will not be firmly held in the chuck, leading to run-out and breaking of your drillbits.)

 

Jan

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