drobinson02199 Posted July 16, 2020 Author Share #91 Posted July 16, 2020 Here's the first section of the main mast. The supplied wood is basswood, so I had to stain it. Regards, David Edwardkenway, Landlubber Mike, Cirdan and 8 others 11 Quote David Robinson Boston, MA area Completed: Constructo J.S. Elcano, Artesinia Latina Sanson, Dumas Mt. Washington, Bluejacket Nantucket, Amati Revenge, Artesania Latina King of the Mississippi, Amati Grand Banks Heritage 46, Amati HMS Fly, Amati Titanic, Dumas Chris Craft Commuter, Mantua Cutty Sark, Mantua Bruma, Kolderstok Batavia, Vanguard Models HM Cutter Alert, Caldercraft HMS Victory, Dumas USCG Fast Response Cutter Currently Building: Amati Bismarck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Hans* Posted July 16, 2020 Share #92 Posted July 16, 2020 David, I'd like to make a small comment: the wood for the masts is beech wood 🙂 Hope you don't mind me saying this. Edwardkenway, drobinson02199 and James H 3 Quote Hans Owner of Kolderstok Models - 17th century Dutch ships. Please visit www.kolderstok.com for an overview of the model kits available Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James H Posted July 16, 2020 Share #93 Posted July 16, 2020 55 minutes ago, *Hans* said: David, I'd like to make a small comment: the wood for the masts is beech wood 🙂 Hope you don't mind me saying this. Your models are wonderful, Hans. You can't tell these from a fully wooden model when built. Quote SAY NO TO PIRACY. SUPPORT ORIGINAL IDEAS AND MANUFACTURERS. KEEP IT REAL! On the bench: HMS Indefatigable - 1794 (production prototype), Vanguard Models - 1:64. On Hold: HMS Winchelsea Double Capstan - Syren Ship Models - 1:48 Finished US Baltimore Armed Privateer Schooner Grecian 1812 (prototype) - Vanguard Models - 1:64 'Zulu' fishing boat, Vanguard Models - 1:64 Fifie' fishing boat, Vanguard Models - 1:64 HMS Flirt 1782, Vanguard Models - 1:64. Duchess of Kingston c.1780 - Vanguard Models - 1:64 HMS Sphinx 1775, Vanguard Models - 1:64 ERYCINA - Plymouth Ketch-Rigged Trawler 1882, Vanguard Models - 1:64. 'Nisha' - The Brixham 'Mumble-Bee' - Vanguard Models 1:64 'Saucy Jack' fishing boat - Vanguard Models - 1:64 Ranger 'Barking Fish Carrier' - 1864 - Vanguard Models - 1:64 Indeterminate: Tender Avos - Master Korabel - 1:72. H.M.S. Victory (production prototype) - Amati - 1:64. HMS Granado 1742 (cross section) - CAFModel - 1:48 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drobinson02199 Posted July 16, 2020 Author Share #94 Posted July 16, 2020 1 hour ago, *Hans* said: David, I'd like to make a small comment: the wood for the masts is beech wood 🙂 Hope you don't mind me saying this. Hans, I don't mind at all -- want it to be right when I describe it. For the benefit of other readers: the quality of wood in this model is excellent -- as good as any I have seen in the best of other models I've built. James, I'm not sure I understand your comment. Other than the resin decorations, this is a fully wooden model. Regards, David Quote David Robinson Boston, MA area Completed: Constructo J.S. Elcano, Artesinia Latina Sanson, Dumas Mt. Washington, Bluejacket Nantucket, Amati Revenge, Artesania Latina King of the Mississippi, Amati Grand Banks Heritage 46, Amati HMS Fly, Amati Titanic, Dumas Chris Craft Commuter, Mantua Cutty Sark, Mantua Bruma, Kolderstok Batavia, Vanguard Models HM Cutter Alert, Caldercraft HMS Victory, Dumas USCG Fast Response Cutter Currently Building: Amati Bismarck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drobinson02199 Posted July 20, 2020 Author Share #95 Posted July 20, 2020 Here's the completed main mast. Many of the parts, such as the mast top shown in closeup, need to be hand-made following the plans. I think my next step will be do to the shrouds on the lower part of this mast before moving on to the next mast. That will put some variety in the build, and also help to forestall "repetitive shroud fatigue" later on. 😛 In previous ships I have attached the yards before doing the shrouds and stays, but I think I'll do it after the shrouds are up on this one and see how that goes. Some concern about access, but we'll see. Regards, David YankeeD, GrandpaPhil, Edwardkenway and 4 others 7 Quote David Robinson Boston, MA area Completed: Constructo J.S. Elcano, Artesinia Latina Sanson, Dumas Mt. Washington, Bluejacket Nantucket, Amati Revenge, Artesania Latina King of the Mississippi, Amati Grand Banks Heritage 46, Amati HMS Fly, Amati Titanic, Dumas Chris Craft Commuter, Mantua Cutty Sark, Mantua Bruma, Kolderstok Batavia, Vanguard Models HM Cutter Alert, Caldercraft HMS Victory, Dumas USCG Fast Response Cutter Currently Building: Amati Bismarck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drobinson02199 Posted July 24, 2020 Author Share #96 Posted July 24, 2020 Main mast shrouds up -- ratlines still to come. I spent a lot of time getting my deadeyes to line up. Regards, David toms10, Edwardkenway, Archi and 6 others 9 Quote David Robinson Boston, MA area Completed: Constructo J.S. Elcano, Artesinia Latina Sanson, Dumas Mt. Washington, Bluejacket Nantucket, Amati Revenge, Artesania Latina King of the Mississippi, Amati Grand Banks Heritage 46, Amati HMS Fly, Amati Titanic, Dumas Chris Craft Commuter, Mantua Cutty Sark, Mantua Bruma, Kolderstok Batavia, Vanguard Models HM Cutter Alert, Caldercraft HMS Victory, Dumas USCG Fast Response Cutter Currently Building: Amati Bismarck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Hans* Posted July 26, 2020 Share #97 Posted July 26, 2020 ...which is clearly visible! They align perfectly 👍 drobinson02199 1 Quote Hans Owner of Kolderstok Models - 17th century Dutch ships. Please visit www.kolderstok.com for an overview of the model kits available Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drobinson02199 Posted August 6, 2020 Author Share #98 Posted August 6, 2020 Finally finished the ratlines on the lower main mast shrouds. Took a lot of time, which is why I haven't posted in a while. Now for the foremast. Regards, David BLACK VIKING, *Hans*, Edwardkenway and 4 others 7 Quote David Robinson Boston, MA area Completed: Constructo J.S. Elcano, Artesinia Latina Sanson, Dumas Mt. Washington, Bluejacket Nantucket, Amati Revenge, Artesania Latina King of the Mississippi, Amati Grand Banks Heritage 46, Amati HMS Fly, Amati Titanic, Dumas Chris Craft Commuter, Mantua Cutty Sark, Mantua Bruma, Kolderstok Batavia, Vanguard Models HM Cutter Alert, Caldercraft HMS Victory, Dumas USCG Fast Response Cutter Currently Building: Amati Bismarck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drobinson02199 Posted August 10, 2020 Author Share #99 Posted August 10, 2020 Futtock shrouds at the top of the lower main shrouds. Regards, David zappto, *Hans*, chris watton and 4 others 7 Quote David Robinson Boston, MA area Completed: Constructo J.S. Elcano, Artesinia Latina Sanson, Dumas Mt. Washington, Bluejacket Nantucket, Amati Revenge, Artesania Latina King of the Mississippi, Amati Grand Banks Heritage 46, Amati HMS Fly, Amati Titanic, Dumas Chris Craft Commuter, Mantua Cutty Sark, Mantua Bruma, Kolderstok Batavia, Vanguard Models HM Cutter Alert, Caldercraft HMS Victory, Dumas USCG Fast Response Cutter Currently Building: Amati Bismarck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drobinson02199 Posted August 13, 2020 Author Share #100 Posted August 13, 2020 Foremast built and mounted. The construction is identical to the main mast. Regards, David YankeeD, Archi, zappto and 4 others 7 Quote David Robinson Boston, MA area Completed: Constructo J.S. Elcano, Artesinia Latina Sanson, Dumas Mt. Washington, Bluejacket Nantucket, Amati Revenge, Artesania Latina King of the Mississippi, Amati Grand Banks Heritage 46, Amati HMS Fly, Amati Titanic, Dumas Chris Craft Commuter, Mantua Cutty Sark, Mantua Bruma, Kolderstok Batavia, Vanguard Models HM Cutter Alert, Caldercraft HMS Victory, Dumas USCG Fast Response Cutter Currently Building: Amati Bismarck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zapto Posted August 14, 2020 Share #101 Posted August 14, 2020 What a great looking ship, those shrouds looking perfectly ! Keep up wonderful work! drobinson02199 and chris watton 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drobinson02199 Posted August 15, 2020 Author Share #102 Posted August 15, 2020 I have found it difficult and frustrating to get the second deadeye in a shroud "loop" installed on the shroud at the right height to be aligned and yet create some tension on the shroud. I've been getting it done, but lots of fiddling and trying. This morning I tried a new approach, shown in the pictures below (because this site sometimes puts the pictures in a different order than I upload them, I have put a red sequence number in the lower right corner of each one). First, after rigging the first deadeye on the shroud loop, rig the second one by itself before attaching it to the shroud, but don't tighten (Picture 1). Then attach the shroud, test the height, and clamp it. (Picture 2). The hard part here is that you can't just pull up on the shroud end, because the deadeye will rotate. So I had to hold the deadeye in place while testing the length of the shroud -- then clamp it and re-test by pulling the deadeye lines tight. This was still much easier than trying to test the height while juggling the deadeye, before rigging it. [Hope that's clear] Then tie off the deadeye (Picture 3), and pull down the deadeye rigging until it's at the right height according to my jig (Picture 4), Picture 5 shows them lined up. There is probably an even better way to do this, but this works a bit better for me than trying to align the deadeye height and then clamping and attaching it, and then rigging it. On earlier models, I was so concerned about the alignment that I did the shrouds individually rather than using a two-shroud loop (which is much better). Regards, David chris watton, ObviousNewbie, Archi and 4 others 7 Quote David Robinson Boston, MA area Completed: Constructo J.S. Elcano, Artesinia Latina Sanson, Dumas Mt. Washington, Bluejacket Nantucket, Amati Revenge, Artesania Latina King of the Mississippi, Amati Grand Banks Heritage 46, Amati HMS Fly, Amati Titanic, Dumas Chris Craft Commuter, Mantua Cutty Sark, Mantua Bruma, Kolderstok Batavia, Vanguard Models HM Cutter Alert, Caldercraft HMS Victory, Dumas USCG Fast Response Cutter Currently Building: Amati Bismarck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ObviousNewbie Posted August 16, 2020 Share #103 Posted August 16, 2020 Excellent tip, I'll try this one as well when I get to my deadeyes. Thnx for sharing! drobinson02199 1 Quote "Whatever does not kill you, only makes you stranger." Current build: Finished builds:Calella by Occre - Greek Bireme by Amati - HMS Terror by Occre - Frigate Diana by Occre Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Hans* Posted August 16, 2020 Share #104 Posted August 16, 2020 It worked out very well, and is in fact not even that hard to do (or so it seems....) drobinson02199 1 Quote Hans Owner of Kolderstok Models - 17th century Dutch ships. Please visit www.kolderstok.com for an overview of the model kits available Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drobinson02199 Posted September 3, 2020 Author Share #105 Posted September 3, 2020 Finally finished the foremast shrouds and ratlines. Goes slower than I recall from other ships -- possibly because I'm tying the knots correctly on this ship! Regards, David PeterB010, *Hans*, zappto and 3 others 6 Quote David Robinson Boston, MA area Completed: Constructo J.S. Elcano, Artesinia Latina Sanson, Dumas Mt. Washington, Bluejacket Nantucket, Amati Revenge, Artesania Latina King of the Mississippi, Amati Grand Banks Heritage 46, Amati HMS Fly, Amati Titanic, Dumas Chris Craft Commuter, Mantua Cutty Sark, Mantua Bruma, Kolderstok Batavia, Vanguard Models HM Cutter Alert, Caldercraft HMS Victory, Dumas USCG Fast Response Cutter Currently Building: Amati Bismarck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drobinson02199 Posted September 20, 2020 Author Share #106 Posted September 20, 2020 Finished the bowsprit (see pics), which is really interesting with the small mast & shrouds at the end. I was looking at this and thinking about the spritsail, which on the real ship must have put a lot of torque on the sprit in high winds. Looking at the rigging plans, I don't see a lot of side bracing, but I may not be looking closely enough. Regards, David PeterB010, Edwardkenway, Archi and 3 others 6 Quote David Robinson Boston, MA area Completed: Constructo J.S. Elcano, Artesinia Latina Sanson, Dumas Mt. Washington, Bluejacket Nantucket, Amati Revenge, Artesania Latina King of the Mississippi, Amati Grand Banks Heritage 46, Amati HMS Fly, Amati Titanic, Dumas Chris Craft Commuter, Mantua Cutty Sark, Mantua Bruma, Kolderstok Batavia, Vanguard Models HM Cutter Alert, Caldercraft HMS Victory, Dumas USCG Fast Response Cutter Currently Building: Amati Bismarck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drobinson02199 Posted September 30, 2020 Author Share #107 Posted September 30, 2020 Built the mizzen mast and completed the lower shrouds and ratlines. Now I have 5 more double sets of shrouds and ratlines to do before moving on to the stays. Regards, David PeterB010, ObviousNewbie, Moab and 1 other 4 Quote David Robinson Boston, MA area Completed: Constructo J.S. Elcano, Artesinia Latina Sanson, Dumas Mt. Washington, Bluejacket Nantucket, Amati Revenge, Artesania Latina King of the Mississippi, Amati Grand Banks Heritage 46, Amati HMS Fly, Amati Titanic, Dumas Chris Craft Commuter, Mantua Cutty Sark, Mantua Bruma, Kolderstok Batavia, Vanguard Models HM Cutter Alert, Caldercraft HMS Victory, Dumas USCG Fast Response Cutter Currently Building: Amati Bismarck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drobinson02199 Posted October 2, 2020 Author Share #108 Posted October 2, 2020 Started working on the upper main mast shrouds and ratlines. One issue with these is that the lower deadeye in each pair is mounted with thread, which leads to a lot of swivel. That in turn leads to upper deadeyes that are aligned vertically, but that don't face forward uniformly. That is shown in the "before" closeup pictures. The way I solved this was to carefully install the first ratline by aligning each shroud and then gluing the ratline knot before going to the next shroud. That got the upper deadeyes to face mostly forward as you can see in the "after" closeup pictures. Regards, David Moab, Edwardkenway, chris watton and 1 other 4 Quote David Robinson Boston, MA area Completed: Constructo J.S. Elcano, Artesinia Latina Sanson, Dumas Mt. Washington, Bluejacket Nantucket, Amati Revenge, Artesania Latina King of the Mississippi, Amati Grand Banks Heritage 46, Amati HMS Fly, Amati Titanic, Dumas Chris Craft Commuter, Mantua Cutty Sark, Mantua Bruma, Kolderstok Batavia, Vanguard Models HM Cutter Alert, Caldercraft HMS Victory, Dumas USCG Fast Response Cutter Currently Building: Amati Bismarck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drobinson02199 Posted October 7, 2020 Author Share #109 Posted October 7, 2020 Main mast upper shrouds and ratlines done. Regards, David Landlubber Mike, PeterB010, Edwardkenway and 2 others 5 Quote David Robinson Boston, MA area Completed: Constructo J.S. Elcano, Artesinia Latina Sanson, Dumas Mt. Washington, Bluejacket Nantucket, Amati Revenge, Artesania Latina King of the Mississippi, Amati Grand Banks Heritage 46, Amati HMS Fly, Amati Titanic, Dumas Chris Craft Commuter, Mantua Cutty Sark, Mantua Bruma, Kolderstok Batavia, Vanguard Models HM Cutter Alert, Caldercraft HMS Victory, Dumas USCG Fast Response Cutter Currently Building: Amati Bismarck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Hans* Posted October 10, 2020 Share #110 Posted October 10, 2020 You solved it in a nice way. 👍 drobinson02199 1 Quote Hans Owner of Kolderstok Models - 17th century Dutch ships. Please visit www.kolderstok.com for an overview of the model kits available Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drobinson02199 Posted October 15, 2020 Author Share #111 Posted October 15, 2020 Midmast shrouds and ratlines completed. Now just need to get two tops. Regards, David Archi, *Hans*, Danstream and 10 others 13 Quote David Robinson Boston, MA area Completed: Constructo J.S. Elcano, Artesinia Latina Sanson, Dumas Mt. Washington, Bluejacket Nantucket, Amati Revenge, Artesania Latina King of the Mississippi, Amati Grand Banks Heritage 46, Amati HMS Fly, Amati Titanic, Dumas Chris Craft Commuter, Mantua Cutty Sark, Mantua Bruma, Kolderstok Batavia, Vanguard Models HM Cutter Alert, Caldercraft HMS Victory, Dumas USCG Fast Response Cutter Currently Building: Amati Bismarck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drobinson02199 Posted October 18, 2020 Author Share #112 Posted October 18, 2020 Finally, all shrouds and ratlines done. I looked back at my log, and I've been working on shrouds and ratlines for 3 months! That's not so much a reflection of kit difficulty as it is my slower work pace (I've been reading more during the pandemic). One tip for others: the deadeye holes are very small, and a thinner line is needed for those than what's shown on the plans. I used some leftover thin white that I had from a previous kit (Revenge). One thing about that white line is that it leaves a sloppier tie-off than I would like (someone with better skills would have done it better). So I decided to dress those tie-offs with black paint, and the result is shown in before and after pics below. Now on to the stays! Regards, David Moab, marktiedens, PeterB010 and 1 other 4 Quote David Robinson Boston, MA area Completed: Constructo J.S. Elcano, Artesinia Latina Sanson, Dumas Mt. Washington, Bluejacket Nantucket, Amati Revenge, Artesania Latina King of the Mississippi, Amati Grand Banks Heritage 46, Amati HMS Fly, Amati Titanic, Dumas Chris Craft Commuter, Mantua Cutty Sark, Mantua Bruma, Kolderstok Batavia, Vanguard Models HM Cutter Alert, Caldercraft HMS Victory, Dumas USCG Fast Response Cutter Currently Building: Amati Bismarck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drobinson02199 Posted October 18, 2020 Author Share #113 Posted October 18, 2020 Installed the mizzen mast forestay. Regards, David marktiedens, PeterB010, Louie da fly and 3 others 6 Quote David Robinson Boston, MA area Completed: Constructo J.S. Elcano, Artesinia Latina Sanson, Dumas Mt. Washington, Bluejacket Nantucket, Amati Revenge, Artesania Latina King of the Mississippi, Amati Grand Banks Heritage 46, Amati HMS Fly, Amati Titanic, Dumas Chris Craft Commuter, Mantua Cutty Sark, Mantua Bruma, Kolderstok Batavia, Vanguard Models HM Cutter Alert, Caldercraft HMS Victory, Dumas USCG Fast Response Cutter Currently Building: Amati Bismarck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drobinson02199 Posted October 19, 2020 Author Share #114 Posted October 19, 2020 Now all 3 of the large forestays are done. Work goes faster now that the shrouds and ratlines are done. Regards, David *Hans*, Edwardkenway, marktiedens and 3 others 6 Quote David Robinson Boston, MA area Completed: Constructo J.S. Elcano, Artesinia Latina Sanson, Dumas Mt. Washington, Bluejacket Nantucket, Amati Revenge, Artesania Latina King of the Mississippi, Amati Grand Banks Heritage 46, Amati HMS Fly, Amati Titanic, Dumas Chris Craft Commuter, Mantua Cutty Sark, Mantua Bruma, Kolderstok Batavia, Vanguard Models HM Cutter Alert, Caldercraft HMS Victory, Dumas USCG Fast Response Cutter Currently Building: Amati Bismarck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drobinson02199 Posted October 20, 2020 Author Share #115 Posted October 20, 2020 Installed crow's foot rigging at the top of each stay. Regards, David Moab, Danstream, PeterB010 and 2 others 5 Quote David Robinson Boston, MA area Completed: Constructo J.S. Elcano, Artesinia Latina Sanson, Dumas Mt. Washington, Bluejacket Nantucket, Amati Revenge, Artesania Latina King of the Mississippi, Amati Grand Banks Heritage 46, Amati HMS Fly, Amati Titanic, Dumas Chris Craft Commuter, Mantua Cutty Sark, Mantua Bruma, Kolderstok Batavia, Vanguard Models HM Cutter Alert, Caldercraft HMS Victory, Dumas USCG Fast Response Cutter Currently Building: Amati Bismarck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drobinson02199 Posted October 24, 2020 Author Share #116 Posted October 24, 2020 Completed all of the stays. Now on to the yards, anchor, and stern light. Regards, David PeterB010, Edwardkenway, KingDavid and 7 others 10 Quote David Robinson Boston, MA area Completed: Constructo J.S. Elcano, Artesinia Latina Sanson, Dumas Mt. Washington, Bluejacket Nantucket, Amati Revenge, Artesania Latina King of the Mississippi, Amati Grand Banks Heritage 46, Amati HMS Fly, Amati Titanic, Dumas Chris Craft Commuter, Mantua Cutty Sark, Mantua Bruma, Kolderstok Batavia, Vanguard Models HM Cutter Alert, Caldercraft HMS Victory, Dumas USCG Fast Response Cutter Currently Building: Amati Bismarck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Louie da fly Posted October 24, 2020 Share #117 Posted October 24, 2020 Beautiful work, David. She's looking better and better. drobinson02199 1 Quote It's not really a ship model unless you've bled on it. CURRENT BUILDS Venetian merchant Ship from Basilica of San Marco Golden City - Ballarat paddlewheeler FINISHED Australian couta boat RMS Titanic HMVS Cerberus 11th century Byzantine dromon Winchelsea Nef - Late 13th century Mediaeval ship Henry Grace a Dieu - Rebuild of 1:200 model I started in 1967 https://modelshipworld.com/topic/36379-mistydeefer-by-louie-da-fly-finished-restoration-decor-yacht/#comment-1040663 Mistydeefer - restoration of decor model yacht Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racedees Posted October 26, 2020 Share #118 Posted October 26, 2020 Looks great! Such a beatiful ship. 🤩 Makes me want to start on my Revell Batavia. But I have to finish the Victory first, or else I have to many projects in progress.🤔 drobinson02199 and *Hans* 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moab Posted October 26, 2020 Share #119 Posted October 26, 2020 David; you’ve created a beautiful ship. Thank you for the photos and explanations...Moab drobinson02199 1 Quote Completed Builds: Virginia Armed Sloop...Model Shipways Ranger...Corel Louise Steam Launch...Constructo Hansa Kogge...Dusek Yankee Hero...BlueJacket Spray...BlueJacket 26’ Long Boat...Model Shipways Under Construction: Emma C. Berry...Model Shipways Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drobinson02199 Posted October 27, 2020 Author Share #120 Posted October 27, 2020 Anchors on. Regards, David GrandpaPhil, PeterB010, Barbossa and 3 others 6 Quote David Robinson Boston, MA area Completed: Constructo J.S. Elcano, Artesinia Latina Sanson, Dumas Mt. Washington, Bluejacket Nantucket, Amati Revenge, Artesania Latina King of the Mississippi, Amati Grand Banks Heritage 46, Amati HMS Fly, Amati Titanic, Dumas Chris Craft Commuter, Mantua Cutty Sark, Mantua Bruma, Kolderstok Batavia, Vanguard Models HM Cutter Alert, Caldercraft HMS Victory, Dumas USCG Fast Response Cutter Currently Building: Amati Bismarck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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