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Hi Jonathan.

 

Looking good.  I recommend putting all the blocks on the yards before mounting them.   The mizzen and bonaventure yards don't have many blocks so it should not be a problem putting them on with the yards already attached, however it may be a problem with the main and fore yards as they have  many more blocks (8-10 on each yard). 

 

Jeff

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I recommend putting all the blocks on the yards before mounting them.   The mizzen and bonaventure yards don't have many blocks so it should not be a problem putting them on with the yards already attached, however it may be a problem with the main and fore yards as they have  many more blocks (8-10 on each yard). 

 

Good catch, I am planning to get all the blocks done before permanently putting everything in place but after your note I went back and realized I had missed a few on the bonadventure yard. Getting those done now will save me lots of hassle later. Thanks again.

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Main Mast Yards:

 

Everything was pretty smooth shaping, painting and assembling the two yards for the mainmast.  Getting in a bit of a flow with it and it looks like things are continuing to come together. I have added all the blocks for these two yards before attaching to the mast and it seems like that's the way to go. For the parrel on the main yard with three strings of beads I still used a single piece of thread. Strung the line through the first two sets of ribs and beads and then brought the loop from that line over the yard and placed the assembly in the approximate position on the mast. Looped one end of the thread over the yard opposite the loop from the first two sets and threaded it back through the ribs and additional beads. The ends of the threads were on opposite sides of the mast so then just looped each end one more time over the yard and then back to the other side using the channels in the ribs. Then just tied the ends to the yard making sure everything was nice and snug. Onward to the fore mast.

 

I did add the yard lifts while I was in this area, I wasn't sure if the parrel assemblies would make that more challenging or not after they were on so I just went ahead and put them in first. Used some painters tape to hold them out of the way while assembling the parrels.

 

 

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Edited by Jonathan_219
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Hi Jonathan:

 

I would check the orientation of your blocks.  the ones seen on the first photo above seem to be upside down...the "holes" in the block (meant to represent the opening for the rope to pass over the pulley inside the block) should be oriented so that it is closest to where the block is seized.  This photo below (though not very good) illustrates this.  The blue line is the block strop, the black is the seizing (the "blue" rope above the seizing will be what gets tied around the yard) and the red is the line that passes through the block.  I am not a big fan of the blocks supplied by the kit as they are too boxy.  There are several retailers that sell very accurate blocks albeit at a price (check out Syren Ship Model Co listed on homepage here), but I think they will greatly add to the overall appearance of your model.

 

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I would also consider not placing the yards on the masts until most of the standing rigging is done.  I think you may find the yards get in the way at this point

 

Jeff

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Jeff, another good catch. I've been trying to put the blocks in the way you describe but it does appear that a couple of them turned around on me when I wasn't looking. I debated whether to place the yards on the masts now or later and decided to go ahead and attach them now. I'll probably try to continue and if I run into an issue that I can't get around I can always release them and re-attach later. This is where more experience would really help and I really appreciate people taking the time to point things out. I've already learned so much and still feel like I'm just starting down that road.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Ready for Rigging:

 

Finished up all the yards and masts with the blocks attached. I've spent a lot of time going over the rigging plans trying to visualize how each step will be done and if it can be done with the yards in place or if I should remove the yards and try to attach them later and I've decided to try to move forward with the rigging with the yards attached, I may regret this later but feel I can remove them if I have to. I'm having a really hard time imagining how I'd attach the yards using the parrel assembly while the mast is on the ship so that has influenced my decision. I'm hoping that my visualization conclusion is correct which is that proceeding with the yards attached will result in more but less severe issues than if they were removed. Since I'm past the point I reached on my first model attempt it's all guesswork. It does seem like either way will make some things harder and some things easier so it's just picking one and seeing how it goes.

 

I'm very grateful that the rigging plans in this kit are so clear it's really helping as I prepare to move forward.

 

 

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Mast Tackle and Foreyard Lift:

 

Started on Stage One of the rigging which is the mast tackles. Seems pretty straightforward so far but as I was working on one side I began to look at some of the things that would be inside this rigging and could become more difficult with it in place. Specifically the main and foreyard lifts, especially the foreyard lift. I wanted to get the foreyard lift done since it goes through the opening in the grate and my plan has always been to rig it to the knighthead out of the ship inside the hole in the grate and then glue the knighthead in place but I know that sometimes plans don't always work that way in reality so I wanted as much space as I could get to do that.

 

First attempt at rigging the lift rope to the block and knighthead was just holding the knighthead in my hand and during the times when I had to let go of it it much have twisted or something as when I finished all the rope was tangled up and not in the proper places so I realized I was going to have to hold it in place while I threaded the rope. Used a couple of clamps and set those on a small box to get it close to the proper height and then was able to thread everything and keep it straight. Then holding the knighthead in my pliers I was able to glue it in place. I was a little concerned that the friction in the knighthead would be too much to pull the slack out but once the glue had dried I was able to slowly pull out the slack one bit at a time. I kept the end taught by clamping a hemostat at the end and letting gravity keep tension on the end as I slowly worked out the slack. One tight I was able to tie and glue the end and place the grate in place and it appears to be fine. It's nice when what you planed on three months ago actually works.

 

I'll probably go ahead and do the main yard lift although it should be much easier since the knighthead is out where it can be worked and then finish the mast tackles. After that will be the shrouds and deadeyes which should be interesting.

 

 

 

 

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Stage 1 Rigging - Mast Tackle:

 

Full speed into the rigging and the first step is the mast tackle. Pretty straightforward except I didn't understand how the lines were attached to the mast at the top but I posted in the Masting, Rigging and Sails forum and got a great answer very quickly which was that they are done just like the shrouds so I could proceed and get them done. I feel like this will be the easiest stage of the rigging to do as there is still wide open spaces to move around my hands and not a ton of ropes. Everything went well and it's great to finally see this part start to take shape.

 

Forgot to take a picture until I had done the first shroud and deadeye pair. This will probably be a long step with all the shrouds and ratlines to do. I'm considering doing one mast at a time to break up the ratlines as much as possible, but I'll have to see how things go before I know if that will be possible.

 

I did rig the main yard lift after doing the fore yard, it just seemed like there was so much more space now so it's finished as well.

 

 

P081.jpg

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Mizzen and Bonadventure Shrouds:

 

As I prepared to start the shrouds there were two things I really didn't know how I was going to do; get the correct angle on the chainplates and get the deadeyes even when rigged. I read bunches of build logs of Revenge and other ships and both ended up to be much easier than I thought. For the chainplates I went ahead and put the shrouds on the mast and then just help the shroud where the center of the hold for the deadeye was and then marked where it continued on the wale, that seemed the best way to ensure that the chainplate continued in a straight line from the shroud and seemed to work well. After marking I drilled a very small hole for the pin so as not to split the wale when placing the pin. One minor issue that popped up was that the chainplate was pulling away from the wale when tensioned with the shroud so I had to apply a tiny drop of CA glue behind the pin and chainplate and then hold the chainplate against the wale as it dried, this seems to have stopped the issue but I'll need to keep checking. I'll probably add that glue as I install the chainplate from now on just as a safety precaution.

 

To keep the upper deadeyes even I just installed the first one at the height I wanted and for subsequent shrouds I went ahead and put the first siezing on the shroud and then was able to manually adjust the height of the deadeye by either pulling up the loose end or grabbing it and pulling it sown a little. This let me set the height very precisely and when I thought I had it right I would lock it in place by clamping the shroud with hemostats and then double check, if everything was right then a spot of glue went on the knot and everything was finalized, i tried to leave them just a little bit higher than where I thought it should go anticipating that the tension would lower it a bit. The additional seizings were then added and the two deadeyes rigged together. At first my shroud seizings were pretty ugly but I finally got where I could make them look decent, still getting better at that.

 

Thinking about the way the seizings got better as I went along made me decide to do all the shrouds before starting the ratlines. It seems that if I do one thing then at least the result is more consistent as opposed to switching back and forth. I think the ratlines may get a bit tedious but I'll just put on some music and plow through them when I get there.

 

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  • 3 weeks later...

Main and Foremast Shrouds:

 

No significant issues putting these shrouds on. I did my best to keep everything straight and level. Only thing I changed from the first two shrouds I did on the mizzen and bonadventure mast were on those first two after adding the shrouds on the masts I attached and tightened the deadeyes alternating sides 1-2-2-2-1 where there four on each side and I switched to doing two at a time, always doing the two that had the shrouds lowest on the mast so I wouldn't be pulling them tight over a rope that hadn't been pulled down yet. This just made more sense to me, not sure it made any real difference in how things laid together where all the shrouds come together.

 

At first I thought I'd be doing the ratlines on these lower shrouds but after looking closer I believe that it would be best to go ahead and install the upper shrouds first and get what I think is called the futtock shroud rigging in place first. I've looked at how the metal bar will go across the shrouds and then get pulled together slightly and I'm still working out exactly how I'm going to do that. It seems like there's a lot of potiential to screw things up with that so I'll try to be slow and careful. The plans don't show exactly how the bar is attached to the shrouds so I'll be doing a bit of research there and see what others have done. Everything has been easier than anticipated so far thanks to the quality of the kit and instructions. A lot of learning to do but very enjoyable.

 

 

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Futtock Shrouds?

 

Moving forward to what I think is called the futtock shrouds. This has been a pretty tricky area as I just haven't been able to visualize exactly how everything is going to go together at the end so I just started and am seeing what I can get. The first issue that gave me pause was the bar that goes across the upper part of the main shrouds, the instructions say to use the 1mm wire but no matter how much I straightened or worked it with my pliers I just couldn't get it straight enough to look right to me so I decided to use a piece of wood instead. Just trimmed the corners off a 1x1mm strip and then sanded round, considered painting it black but decided to go with just staining it instead. My fairly shallow stab at researching whether these were made from wood or iron in the 16th century didn't turn up anything and I felt black just blended into everything else black there.

 

First step was to glue the piece to the shrouds and I lightly taped a piece of paper to the shrouds to use as both a height and straightness guide which seemed to work ok. Just used a dab of wood glue on each shroud where I wanted it to go and then used tweesers to push it in place and then held it in place as long as I could to let it set enough to hold while the glue finished drying.

 

With 7 main shrouds and 3 upper shrouds I decided to alternate shrouds to tie the upper shroud to and took the intersection of each shroud that wasn't going to have an upper shroud tied to it and tie the wood piece to the shroud with an X showing in the front. Some of my X's look ok and some of them are a bit pinched as can be seen in the picture. Then tied the three upper shrouds to the main shroud and pushed the knot right up under the piece of wood (really wish I knew what to call that). The instructions seem to show the upper shroud wrapping around the wood piece before continuing up to the deadeye but every why I tried to do that just didn't look right to my eye so I just passed the upper shroud behind the wood piece and after it was attached to the deadeye I tied a knot across it to hold everything in place.

 

One of the upper shrouds is a bit loose now but I don't think I'll have a problem once I add the tension from the back, and if it's still loose the upper shroud should pull any last looseness out of it. Working in this area makes my eyes go a bit crazy with all the black threads in that area and I really have to concentrate to keep focus on which thread is which and not pull or trim the wrong thing.

 

Once I finish the other side I'll add the tensioning rigging between the two sides and see how that all worked before moving on the the main mast.

 

 

P086.jpg

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Good day Jonathan,

Your rigging looks pretty good!

This wooden bar  which You installed - it is futtock-staff , it looks very nice !!! .

As a rule Lower ends of  futtock-shrouds  need to be taken round the futtock-staff... there you did it a little bit wrong...

There is very good book about 16-17 rigging written by R.C. Anderson "The rigging of the ships in the days of the spritsail topmast 1600-1720" where You can found answers practicaly about all aspects of 17 century riging including end of 16 th century...

I have some pictures where we could see futtock -shrouds arrangements... there are scans from Anderson and Mondfeld(Vasa) books and foto of modern but very accurate replica of Duyfken and Half Moon 

Vasa futtock shrouds after Mondfeld.jpg

Duyfken replica.jpg

Half Moon replica.jpg

scan 082 futtock shrouds.jpg

Edited by kirill4
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Kirill4, thanks very much for the information and pictures. From looking at the instructions I was pretty sure that I was probably doing it wrong and that the futtock shrouds did need to make a loop around the futtock staff but when I tried to do that it just looked wrong or bad, at least to my eyes. I think it might have something to do with the scale of the rope used for the futtock shrouds, maybe I should have tried to go down one more size for that rope and things would have looked better. I could probably fake the loop by using some thread and gluing it in place like it was looped around the staff, I'll have to think about that. Every step of the rigging is such a learning process for me. Sometimes it's hard to know when to move forward and when to just go ahead with the best you can do at the time. 

 

I think that I'll probably consider this side a learning process and see if I can improve the result on the other side and then decide how to match things up.

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Good day Jonathan,

I see... interesting ,what was wrong for your eyes when You try to arrange futtock shrouds around futtock stuff?

Too thick knots when f-shrouds run around futtock stuff or smthg else?

I/m asking becouse scale of your model quite big(my scale was 1:100)...and I expected in such scale  treads should run smooth without negative visual effect...that was the reason when I asked why You did them in such way...

I also had the same issue with my model futtock shrouds during installation, but finaly more or less I've managed it...in this way(may be this info will be usefull):

*thickness futtock shrouds should be the same as respective topmast shrouds...

*during installation we could use unpainted tread, it will be softer and easy for manipulation, and to paint it after installation

*we could use  tweezers to assist in forming knots when futtock shroud goes /passes around futtock staff

*during assembling process,temporary ,we could use some small weight suspended to the fyttock shrouds end to obtain ness-ry  shrouds tension(when we are busy with forming knots around futtock staff better have some weight for constant tension) ,and remove it after installation

ftckshrds 01.jpg

topmast ftckshrds 02.jpg

topmast ftckshrds 03.jpg

ftckshrds 02.jpg

Edited by kirill4
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It was the size of the futtock shroud wrapping around the staff that bothered me. My eyes are admittedly very untrained and new to this so they could have been perfect and just looked wrong to me. I'm still mulling over what I'm going to do for the second side. I could also try and fake the loop around the staff on this one but haven't come up with a good plan to do that yet. It's a challenge for me on my first go through rigging as I'm learning so much as I go along that several of the things I did earlier I now know aren't correct or don't look right but I'm not sure how much I could correct without just tearing down and starting over which I don't really want to do. I really appreciate you taking the time to show me how you've done things and the knowledge will be applied.

 

BTW, your ship looks amazing.

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Good day Jonathan,

I understood now, it is the size ... when futtock shroud passes around staff...!

When I look again and again on the foto with your futtock shrouds , for me it is hard to imagine than there will be issue with the "size"...

Your Diameter of the futtock shrouds is approx 2 times less than main shrouds,which is correct, in this respect there is no sence to reduce it...

I doubt a little bit that making fake loop around the staff  instead of normal knob will look more estetically...

making fake loop we need later on to hide somehow cutted end of the treads, quite difficult task...

*Have small request, as experiment, if possible,

- to connect one futtock- shroud to puttock plate(temporary),

pass running end of futtock shroud round futtock staff  giving  half -hitch(in such way as it is shown on the pictures from Anderson or Mondfeld books) ,

suspend some weight  to the free end,

don't yet apply any seizing yet ,

and show us two pictures -from distance and close vew ,how it will looks like half-hitch from futtock shroud on the futtock-staff?,

just interesting to evaluate visualy result when it will pass around staff ?

 

*I saw You mentioned that you use PVA clue to fix rigging treads...

I could reccomend to use instant CA clue gel, not liquid CA!... this gives immediate result as soon as you apply small drop of CA (could use tooth pick for application) to the treads and pressing a little place of contact during 2-3 secs by tweezers.

CA gel don't discolorate treades, stay at place of application,could easy painted  and work fast - by my experience it works much much handy than PVA clue...

*don't You use magnifier glasses?

I can't work without them and very powerfull lights for working place when making small rigging seizing ...

Edited by kirill4
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Hi Jonathan,

 

After reviewing you last few posts and Kirill's replies, I thought I would add my 2 cents.  One reason things might not look "right" may be due to the thickness of the futtock shrouds.  The kit plans call for 1.3 mm rope for the main fore shrouds and 0.75 mm for the futtock and topmast shrouds.  The same diameter rope is called for on the corresponding main mast.  However, the rope sizes for the shrouds are slightly different from the fore to the main and the sizes used for the kit instructions seem to be too big for the scale of the ship. 

 

Sizes of all rope used for rigging is not arbitrary, it is calculated based on the thickness of the main stay which is itself based on the thickness of the mainmast at the deck.  2 good references are Historic Ship Models by Wolfram zu Mondfeld and The Masting and Rigging of English Ships of War 1625 - 1860 by James Lees.  So, here are the calculations:  the thickness (or diameter) of the mainstay is typically 0.166 x (diameter of the main mast at the deck).  This is from zu Mondfeld.  For the Revenge, that would be 1.66 mm.  The kit calls for a 2mm line and I thought this looked better and is not too far off (also if I used 1.66, everything else would be measured using this value leading to smaller shrouds, backstays etc which I thought would make the overall rigging look too "thin").  Another point to remember with ropes is that in many reference books the size of the rope given is actually the circumference whereas the sizes given in kit instructions are the diameter.  Everything below is rope diameter.

 

According to the tables found in zu Mondfeld's book, the fore shroud measures 40% of the main stay and the futtocks and topmast shrouds are 18 and 20 % respectively.  That would translate to 0.8 mm for the fore shroud (I used 0.88) and 0.4 mm for the topmast shrouds (I used 0.45 for the topmast and the  futtocks as well as there is only 2 % difference).  You can see that this is almost half the size of what the kit call for and thus may be why thing don't look right.  The  main shroud is 50 % of the main stay (1 mm vs kit 1.3 mm) and the futtocks / topmast would be 20 % / 25 % (.4 mm and .5 mm vs kit .75mm).  All rope sizes can calculated from the size of the main stay, both running and standing rigging.   One rigging that is constant is the size of the ratlines - standard size is 1.5 inches circumference so at a scale of 1:64 that would be 0.18 mm diameter (kit calls for 0.25).  I usually err on going smaller as ratline that are too large just don't look right.    So even using the kit size for the main stay of 2 mm, the remaining rigging sizes (at least on the set of plans I am currently working on) are too thick.  It may seem complicated but it is not really if you just take it one line at a time.   I simply figure out how big each line should be as I get to it and see what I have in stock that is close.

 

Also, you are not so far advanced that restarting the rigging (if you chose to do so) would not be too difficult. 

And finally, I have an extra copy of Historic Ship Models and would be happy to sell it for you for a nominal fee + shipping (depending on where you live).  For some reason, due to a publishing error, it is missing pages 33-64 but I could get those pages to you with the book.  Just send me a message if you are interested.

 

Jeff

 

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kirill4, I will try to get pictures like you've requested when I start on the other side of the foremast, right now I'm just trying to soak up all this new information and see how I'm going to move forward. Currently I use CA glue on the rigging and have a medium thickness with an extra fine dispenser and I try to get glue where it won't be seen as much as possible as it does make a slight change in the look of the thread. As for magnifier glasses, I am blessed/cursed with extreme nearsightedness and when I take my glasses off I can see tiny things really well. I've been meaning to say something but keep forgetting but possibly the best upgrade I've made to my building area was an adjustable bright LED lamp, the difference a well lit area makes is incredible. Not enough can be said about good lighting.

 

xodar461, great information as always. I had seen some mention of the thickness of the rope based on the mast in some of the things I've been through as I try to absorb as much as I can building and learning at the same time. My initial plan was to just go ahead and follow the instructions in the kit as much as I could and get at least one full rigging done and try to build on that for the future. I do think that what is completely accurate and what works best on a scale model aren't always the same thing and how those decisions are made just depend on the personal preference of the builder. I confess that I lean a little to the look good over total accuracy camp a bit. As I've been learning and seeing more models, pictures and paintings what I see as best for a certain situation has been changing.

 

Again, I really appreciate you taking the time to share this information, sometimes I find so much on the web it can be hard to separate the important pieces but specific details like the ones you've pointed out are a great help and really help focus on the practice for a ship of this period. 

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Good day Jonathan, Jeff

Regarding thickness of the rigging - this is good input from Jeff about rigging and sources!...

I've head ,that there is sence, for the models, to increase calculated diameters of the model rigging  in 30% approx , which gives more estetical vew of the rigging... I think it (30% increase)will be more suitable for 16-17 rigging than for the 19-20 centuries rigging...

sometimes using exactly calculated rigging diameters gives visual effect of  too thiny rigging...

however Jeff mentioned such issue in his post :)

I did my rigging roughly follow this rules ,first I made my rigging plans for all standing and running rigging 

 but later on I had to made some simlifications due to I started my rigging using ordinary conventional treads I've found in the nearest market(not all sizes I neede were available)😕..

I used same diameters for fore- fore top  and main-main tops  shrouds but already different ,as calculated, for fore stays-for main stays and partly of top stays I used already self made ropes of right sizes...

 

*CA clue -  Jonathan, I mentioned that it must be CA gel clue , it is thick in consistency and stays on surface when applied in total differently than liquid CA clue...this type of CA  clue is conventional type,it usualy sells in the same place where liquid CA sells... type of clue "GEL" indicated on the package as a rule

*liquid CA better to use in some places where You want to make threads to keep desired shape - strait or curved imitating gravity force...I used very liquid type of CA for crowfeets when need to keep them all in strait lines (mizzen lifts,etc)

in this case better apply liquid CA on unpainted treads and paint them after CA became dry

* as I know ,CA  not so good for cotton treads

there are a few pictures where I used CA liquid type - for coating crowfoots of mizzen lifts and martnets... for other places to fix rigging more handy to use CA gel

CA liquid aplication.jpg

CA liquid aplication 01.jpg

Edited by kirill4
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 guys,

just tried to make reverse translation from english to russian my posts...it looks like abracadabra of 10-15%my written text

I'm very sorry for inconvinience when you are reading my "english" posts 🤪

Edited by kirill4
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kirill4, your english has been fine, no problem there. I did what you suggested and the pictures are below. I think it looks very good, now I'm not even sure what I saw that made me do it the other way. I will probably just tie the futtock shrouds off where they are, it really doesn't look that different from the other side since I made a similar loop around the staff just with smaller thread. I will probably be able to live with the difference and just use this method going forward. Many thanks to you and xodar in helping me understand what is going on here. 

 

 

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Jonathan,

Good Day!

O!!!

Yes!:)))

It looks very nice now!

However,One moment!!!

 please check carefuly how  You did pass the line around staff... 

You started from inside,but need to be started from outside:

than f-shrouds goes down under f-staff passes behind main shroud 

than goes up and outside between f-shroud and upper part of m-shroud thas making half hitch and

down along main shrouds

seized to m-shrouds and cutted in ness-ry length

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Screenshot_20210110-102011_Samsung Internet.jpg

Edited by kirill4
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