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Microlux Tilt Arbor Saw Problems


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Very interesting. That would also explain why it works much better on thinner sections.

 

Tony

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Harvey

 

I have just read through this entire thread, I do not own either a Proxxon or any other small saw.

From what I have heard so far I see a number of things that you need to take into account.

 

1) The first thing is that the very fine slitting saws were not designed for cutting hard wood, they were designed for cutting metal with a lubricant.

 

2) the issue of the vibration and wobble is caused by the blade buckling from the heat. this is as was suggested that the space between the teeth is filling with wood and the blade then acts like a solid disk with no teeth.

 

3) use a blade with courser teeth. Think about how the blade on a bandsaw works or a jewelers saw you are faced with the same issue when cutting a thin sheet of metal with a jewelers saw one need to have at least 2 teeth that will sit on the edge of the metal so that it does not fall into the space between the teeth however on the circular saw the teeth are not at a right angle to the material being cut  so the very fine teeth have a much more difficult time.

 

4) If you raise the blade to its highest position then the teeth will be more vertical and so less teeth will be engaged with the material being cut.

 

5) The best solution is to use a blade with fewer teeth.

 

I did take a look on the net at the Proxxon saws and also for slitting saws. and the 80 tooth would be your best bet.

 

Michael

Current builds  Bristol Pilot Cutter 1:8;      Skipjack 19 foot Launch 1:8;       Herreshoff Buzzards Bay 14 1:8

Other projects  Pilot Cutter 1:500 ;   Maria, 1:2  Now just a memory    

Future model Gill Smith Catboat Pauline 1:8

Finished projects  A Bassett Lowke steamship Albertic 1:100  

 

Anything you can imagine is possible, when you put your mind to it.

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Harvey

I just had an Idea, what happens if you run you blade at a very low speed and with the blade up as high as it will go?

 

Michael

Current builds  Bristol Pilot Cutter 1:8;      Skipjack 19 foot Launch 1:8;       Herreshoff Buzzards Bay 14 1:8

Other projects  Pilot Cutter 1:500 ;   Maria, 1:2  Now just a memory    

Future model Gill Smith Catboat Pauline 1:8

Finished projects  A Bassett Lowke steamship Albertic 1:100  

 

Anything you can imagine is possible, when you put your mind to it.

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Hi Everybody,

 

Sorry I haven't gotten back to you yet. I just got home.

 

Tony, Janos, I haven't seen improvement regardless of blade speed. I generally like to run the saw a little slower anyway, but I haven't tried it yet at the slowest speed. Something to try tonight.

 

Michael,

 

I hadn't thought about bringing the blade up as high as it will go. I think about injuries from blade exposure and have kept the blade low because of that. I agree that a higher blade setting makes the teeth more vertical. I'll try that in conjunction with a slower speed and see what happens. I used an 80 tooth blade for a long time, but didn't like the finish I was getting. I went to a 24 tooth carbide blade and it got worse. Maybe I'll order a new 80 tooth blade and a 168 tooth blade (simply because I haven't tried it).

 

One comment about the vibration and bucking. What bothered me was watching the blade wobble for 4-5 seconds after I removed the workpiece. It lasted long enough that I thought the blade had come loose or I had damaged a bearing.

 

Thanks again everybody for your comments and suggestions. I'll try the slower blade speed with max blade exposure, and a coarser blade.. And I'll report back.

 

Harvey

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Harvey,

The blade "wobbled" for 4-5 seconds? Or was it bouncing up and down?   Was it still spinning?  Enquiring minds and all that....

Mark
"The shipwright is slow, but the wood is patient." - me

Current Build:                                                                                             
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 NRG Hallf Hull Planking Kit                                                                            HMS Sphinx 1775 - Vanguard Models - 1:64               

 

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CH-53 Sikorsky - 1:48 - Revell - Completed                                                   Licorne - 1755 from Hahn Plans (Scratch) Version 2.0 (Abandoned)         

         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                

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Janos, thank you for the clarification. I'll need to up the blade speed and reduce the feed speed (although I don't know how much more I can reduce that).

 

Mark, the blade was wobbling out of plane at least the width of the clearance in the insert (about .06" each side)-it may have widened the slot in the insert while wobbling. It was wobbling after I pulled the wood out and was fumbling for the saw kill switch.

 

If the blade was deforming that much, I wonder how close the blade was to flying apart (and taking everything in the blade of the plane out-including me). Maybe inquiring minds don't want to know that :o

 

Harvey

Edited by capnharv2
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Are you using the "special" blade adapter?  The one with the ridge the blade sits on?

Mark
"The shipwright is slow, but the wood is patient." - me

Current Build:                                                                                             
Past Builds:
 La Belle Poule 1765 - French Frigate from ANCRE plans - ON HOLD           Triton Cross-Section   

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Non-Ship Model:                                                                                         On hold, maybe forever:           

CH-53 Sikorsky - 1:48 - Revell - Completed                                                   Licorne - 1755 from Hahn Plans (Scratch) Version 2.0 (Abandoned)         

         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                

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Yes. I found that out the first time I had the problem (because I didn't). I don't really like the adapter. Even though it centers the blade on the arbor, and the blade has no runout, it just doesn't feel secure.

 

I tried some test cuts-one with boxwood and one with cherry. The blade position was all the way up and the blade speed was set to max.

 

post-335-0-90442300-1371020772_thumb.jpg

 

The cut with the boxwood came out good this time. I stopped pushing when the motor started to bog down and kept the feed speed as slow as I could go. The cherry, on the other hand, was a problem from the start. The motor bogged down and the blade kept wobbling. The burn marks are obvious. I cut the cherry twice-I lost the first piece in the carpet. I cut the second piece thicker because the Accuriser fence didn't come back far enough to give the cherry good support

 

post-335-0-81732300-1371020912_thumb.jpg

 

Again, this time the boxwood cut very true. The cherry came out a mess

post-335-0-58934200-1371020812_thumb.jpg

 

Here's a picture of the blade after cutting the cherry. It did not look like this after cutting the boxwood.

 

post-335-0-32900100-1371020830_thumb.jpg

 

I don't know if that's discoloration due to the cherry, or due to the blade being burnt or what.

 

One thing I did not do (and should have) was wax the table. I didn't think of it till now. I'll clean the table off tomorrow and put some wax on it. I don't know how much that will help, but it won't hurt.

 

So, I've learned a few things from this thread and the test cuts tonight:

 

1) Keep the blade up as high as possible

 

2) Keep the blade speed up as high as possible

 

3) Keep the feed speed down

 

4) Wax the table-I was amazed how much it helped my 10" table saw. I'm not expecting miracles, but it will be interesting to see the results.

 

If you have any questions or comments, I'd like to hear them.

 

Thanks again for all your help and support.

 

Harvey

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Interesting pictures Harvey I would be curious as to what happens if you wax the blade after cleaning the resin off it and then try the cherry again.  I just thought about the issue of the fast Vs slow speed. Does the motor slow down as a result of a rheostat or is the voltage modulated but at full power. if it is a rheostat then that would be why the motor bogs down at low speed, it would be underpowered.

 

Michael

Edited by michael mott

Current builds  Bristol Pilot Cutter 1:8;      Skipjack 19 foot Launch 1:8;       Herreshoff Buzzards Bay 14 1:8

Other projects  Pilot Cutter 1:500 ;   Maria, 1:2  Now just a memory    

Future model Gill Smith Catboat Pauline 1:8

Finished projects  A Bassett Lowke steamship Albertic 1:100  

 

Anything you can imagine is possible, when you put your mind to it.

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Michael,

 

This saw has a DC motor.  I haven't torn into mine, but I think it's a rheostat.  I'll dig out the manual and look at the parts list.

Mark
"The shipwright is slow, but the wood is patient." - me

Current Build:                                                                                             
Past Builds:
 La Belle Poule 1765 - French Frigate from ANCRE plans - ON HOLD           Triton Cross-Section   

 NRG Hallf Hull Planking Kit                                                                            HMS Sphinx 1775 - Vanguard Models - 1:64               

 

Non-Ship Model:                                                                                         On hold, maybe forever:           

CH-53 Sikorsky - 1:48 - Revell - Completed                                                   Licorne - 1755 from Hahn Plans (Scratch) Version 2.0 (Abandoned)         

         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                

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Michael,

 

I've tried to find some documentation, but I also believe it's a rheostat control.

 

I tried a couple things last night. I waxed the table and fence. The waxed table made not difference, the waxed fence did. I was surprised the waxed table didn't help-on my big saw the wood just glides across. Not on the little one. I waxed the 230 tooth blade too-no change.

 

I read a little more on the saw at the MicroMark website (while looking for info on type of control). It said the saw is good for softwoods like bass and balsa up to 1" thick, and hardwoods up to 1/4" thick. That's about the thickness I've been pushing thru, so I am probably at the saw's limit.

 

To try the ripping test with cherry and the waxed table, I tried cross cutting the 1/4" x 1/4" cherry with the 230 tooth blade-I had the same wobble and bucking I had before (I couldn't even finish the cut). So I switched back over to the old 80 tooth blade-it worked perfectly smooth. No bucking, no wobble, and no burn. The motor slowed down only a little. And the finished cut was very nice.

 

So, I'm coming to some conclusions here. I see more and more that I am using the slitting blade for the wrong purpose. I know better the types of cuts I want to use the slitting blade for now-making shallow cuts. If I want to rip or crosscut a thicker piece of hardwood, I need to go with a coarser blade. It looks like the 80 tooth blade and zero clearance insert will probably give me what I'm looking for. I'm going to order a new 80 tooth blade today (and probably a 160 tooth, just to see what it does) and I'll probably be okay.

 

One more caveat. All these observations have been with a small sample of cuts (one or two), not 10-20-30 cuts to establish a more statistic baseline on what works and what doesn't. But the observations and comments here lead me to believe I'm heading down a better path.

 

Thanks!

 

Harvey

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I am probably wrong but it does sound like the motor doesn't have the power to do cuts in hard wood more than 1/4" thick. So if I am right then that means that a saw by Jim B. is the only way to go. So this will be another item that I wasted money on, such is life. This is what I get for trying to be cheap LOL.

Wacko

Joe :D

 

Go MSW :) :)

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Because I was curious about the power and speed issues with the slitting blades I set up an experiment on the lathe to test my thoughts about the power and speed.

 

The 3/16 thick ebony was cut at 375 RPM

 

post-202-0-10261300-1371165253_thumb.jpg

 

post-202-0-27352100-1371165255_thumb.jpg

 

The Apple was cut with the back gear set and the speed was 25 rpm

 

post-202-0-29420500-1371165312_thumb.jpg

 

post-202-0-67135800-1371165251_thumb.jpg

 

The slitting saw was 1 3/4 inch diameter x .014 thick

 

The slower speed was harder to feed through but did not burn or clog.

 

Neither did the ebony.

 

My conclusion from this limited experiment is that with a slow speed you need a lot of power or a gear head drive that will not bog down, A rheostat generally reduces the amount of electricity to create the slower speed and so the motor cannot operate with full power.

 

Michael

 

 

Current builds  Bristol Pilot Cutter 1:8;      Skipjack 19 foot Launch 1:8;       Herreshoff Buzzards Bay 14 1:8

Other projects  Pilot Cutter 1:500 ;   Maria, 1:2  Now just a memory    

Future model Gill Smith Catboat Pauline 1:8

Finished projects  A Bassett Lowke steamship Albertic 1:100  

 

Anything you can imagine is possible, when you put your mind to it.

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That's a wonderful demonstration as well of the uses of a lathe, Michael (in addition, that is, to your very useful experimentation).

 

I do so wish I'd had some training on machine tools. There used to be lots of adult education classes in the UK that taught those skills, but I can't seem to find any at the moment. It's a pity because I am sure there are lots of us who come to modeling and see the wonderful possibilities with machine tools, yet either have to jump in and buy, say, a lathe or a mill, and struggle to pick up the skills and the knowledge of what extras to buy and how to work with them, or just stand at the sidelines and watch with a certain amount of jealousy.

 

I bought a couple of books on lathe and mill use but what is needed really is the hand on experience an apprentice or engineer would have.

 

I know this is a bit off topic, but do you (or anyone) have suggestions of the best way for novices to learn -- other than trial and the multiplicity of errors?

 

Tony

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Tony thanks for your kind comment. Offhand I do not have an answer to your question, but what about the various U tube demonstrations, I have seen a couple of them admittedly for an unrelated subject, it is not a resource I use very often, but I know that some of it is very good.

 

The other thought that comes to mind is to visit a model engineering group, these are the folk who build the most amazing things with small machine tools. The link I provided is one of many, just a start.

 

Michael 

Current builds  Bristol Pilot Cutter 1:8;      Skipjack 19 foot Launch 1:8;       Herreshoff Buzzards Bay 14 1:8

Other projects  Pilot Cutter 1:500 ;   Maria, 1:2  Now just a memory    

Future model Gill Smith Catboat Pauline 1:8

Finished projects  A Bassett Lowke steamship Albertic 1:100  

 

Anything you can imagine is possible, when you put your mind to it.

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That's very helpful, Michael. I hadn't thought of model engineering groups. I'll look into that this weekend.

 

Thanks a lot!

 

Tony

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MIchael,

 

Thank you for sharing your experiment with us. I know next to nothing about electric motors, but I know that automotive engines often have low torque issues at low RPMs/

 

Tony, Michaels advice on Model Engineering groups is excellent. Depending on the tool, there may be Yahoo groups dedicated to that. I follow the Unimat and Unimat 3 groups on Yahoo, and they can be very helpful.

 

Harvey

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OK Guys, I have been watching and reading these posts and I'm going to stick my neck out and tell you what I think even though I have not gotten my blades back to test. You all know about thermal expansion when metal is heated. Keep that in mind for a moment.

 

Look at your large 10" saw blades. Do you see the slits at the bottom of some of the gullets? These are expansion slots and most carbide blades have four of various designs...some straight, some curved, some curly. Without these expansion slots the cutting part of the blade heats up while the center of the blade stays pretty much at ambient temperature causing the blade to deform into a sort of bowl shape. This is the flexing and vibration we have been discussing.

 

For those of you who also have the Byrnes saw, Jim ships his carbide blade with expansion slots which is one reason this problem is absent with his saw. Check it out. Look at the two blades. I'm afraid the problem is that the design of the Proxxon blade is at fault.

 

In the matter of you who are using a slitting blade to make lumber...well, that is not what those blades are made for. They are useful for cutting various grooves and shaping in that sense. They have no expansion slots and have no set.

 

Now that I've run my mouth, let me say that I wanted to wait until I got my blades back to do some testing before I wrote this. However, it has taken longer than I expected to get the blades so I thought I'd go ahead and say what I think since so many are are trying to come up with a cause and solution. BTW, I sent the Proxxon blades out to have expansion slots cut in them (the 24 tooth and the 36 tooth blades) and hopefully I'll get them back this coming week, verify what I have written, and get back to you with the results. I hope this will be the solution as I think the saw without this problem is not a bad machine for the price. It's not a Byrnes, but it's better than most.

 

I welcome any comments and corrections.

 

Alex

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Alex,

 

Thanks for that info.   I've done some strip wood cutting using the slitting blade to have a smoother cut but not for wood over about 12-16" long and not for very many at one time.   The 80 tooth blades that do work for Harvey, don't have the expansion slots either but don't have the problem.

 

Hmm... I know the MicroMark/Proxxon/Central Machine tools aren't designed for a heavy duty cycle or production run type work.   So I assumed that on a saw, this meant to cut a few strips, shut it down. Go fiddle for a few.  Fire it back up and cut a few more strips.  Repeat as needed. 

Mark
"The shipwright is slow, but the wood is patient." - me

Current Build:                                                                                             
Past Builds:
 La Belle Poule 1765 - French Frigate from ANCRE plans - ON HOLD           Triton Cross-Section   

 NRG Hallf Hull Planking Kit                                                                            HMS Sphinx 1775 - Vanguard Models - 1:64               

 

Non-Ship Model:                                                                                         On hold, maybe forever:           

CH-53 Sikorsky - 1:48 - Revell - Completed                                                   Licorne - 1755 from Hahn Plans (Scratch) Version 2.0 (Abandoned)         

         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                

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Alex, Mark,

 

Is it possible the 80 tooth blade works better is because there's less solid disc at the cutting surface and slightly more room for expansion? I haven't looked at blade temperatures at the tooth, but I'd bet the 80 tooth blade runs cooler.

 

If your experiment works, do you have a place we can send the blades to for cutting expansion slots?

 

And Alex, thanks for pursuing a solution to the blade issue. This problem (and my chronic grumpiness) aside, I'm pretty happy with the Proxxon saw.

 

Harvey

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Hi.

Jumping in here...

Is it not possible to use the Byrnes saw blade in the Proxxon FET ??

Or another manufacture blade ??

I am looking into buying a saw at this time and am watching this topic with great interest.

The cost of importing with the vat and taxes makes the Byrnes saw very costly and would be a big chunk out of my hobby cash.

 

Regards Antony.

Best advice ever given to me."If you don't know ..Just ask.

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I've been through the same process as you, Antony. The arbor hole size with Jim's saw blades is the same as that of those sold by MicroMark, but he doesn't sell an adapter (I had emailed him and asked). Clearly his blades are better. I trawled through various European sites to find an adapter but the only one I could find was that supplied by MicroMark. So I bought two of the blades and the adapter from MicroMark. Be prepared to spend £14.93 to the Royal Mail for handling and duty, $6 dollars or so for the adapter, and $22 dollars or so per blade and $18 for shipping. That's pretty expensive all in all.

 

The adapter itself could easily be made on a lathe, if you have one. I don't, unfortunately.

 

I like my FET saw. The only thing is trying to make a better way of clamping the fence.

 

Tony

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Sorry, Harvey, what I meant about Jim's blades is that they are the same size (1/2") arbor as those sold by MicroMark. Both his and MicroMark's need an adapter for the Proxxon which has a 10mm arbor. Jim doesn't make the adapter, and the only place I could find an adapter from 1/2" to the Proxxon's 10mm was MicroMark.

 

So the choice is to get everything from MicroMark to reduce postage and Royal Mail costs, or to buy the adapter from MicroMark (cost = $6 + $18 postage + VAT + £8 Royal Mail Handling fee) and the blades from Jim. Either way it's expensive.

 

As to the fence, so far all I have been able to do is to ensure the fence is square to the blade when clamped (fairly easy to do by loosening the nut at the base of the fence that links it to its tail piece) and to press down on the fence very firmly against the table (horizontally and vertically) when tightening the fence to the adjustment screw which should already be clamped.

 

[Edit] Just an addendum about clamping the fence. Before locking the adjustment screw to the table, because that too has some play, it is important to hold the fence firmly against the table as well and then to lock the adjustment screw. After that you can ensure the fence is square to the table by holding it firmly and then locking it. I am sure someone like Mark Taylor who knows this saw far better than I do will make some more learned comment!

 

Ideally we could develop some kind of Accuriser fence replacement, but that only works on the Proxxon FSE saw and I haven't seen anything on the market that does the same. Part of the problem is the fact that the back end of the table on the FET saw has no ledge on which to hold a fence firmly. I think one could be made from aluminium and glued to the back. If that were done it might be worth looking at the exact dimensions of the Accuriser to see if it would fit the length of the FET (or ensure at least that the new length of the table would be the same as for the FSE).

 

I hope that makes sense!

 

Tony

Edited by tkay11
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OK, so I started searching for reports on the Accuriser. Here's what someone said on a classical guitar forum:

 

"I received the Accuriser II accessory fence for my MicroLux mini table saw today. The idea is great, but I am quite disappointed in the quality, lack thereof. The advertising claims 0.001" accuracy, so I expected a precision machined part, but it is actually just some stamped and bent metal, looks cheap, and doesn't work very well. It is difficult to slide into position, has lots of play so who knows where true square is, and the securing knobs are unpleasant to the fingers."

 

Of course, classical guitar players are sensitive about their fingers, but this is the only comment I found so far! I'll probably turn up more thoughts as I continue to explore.

 

Tony

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Hi Tony.

Thanks for the information most helpful.

It looks like its the Brynes saw for me.

Most of my timber will be 6mm thick and I will be wanting to use the saw quite a lot.

 

Regards Antony.

Best advice ever given to me."If you don't know ..Just ask.

Completed Mayflower

Completed Fun build Tail boat Tailboat

Completed Build Chinese Junk Chinese Pirate Junk

Completed scratch built Korean Turtle ship 1/32 Turtle ship

Completed Santa Lucia Sicilian Cargo Boat 1/30 scale Santa Lucia

On hold. Bounty Occre 1/45

Completed HMS Victory by DeAgostini modelspace. DeAgostini Victory Cross Section

Completed H.M.S. Victory X section by Coral. HMS Victory cross section

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Nice choice! Much envy from me! I look forward to hearing how you get on!

 

Tony

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Tony,

 

I have the Accuriser and the Taper Jig.. my overall impression is one of underwhelming.  The taper doesn't hold the angle very well, and what was said about the Accuriser is true.  I use it only to get a little finer control as a fence replacement.  You possibly could develop an Accuriser for your saw...  maybe an extra fence, some angled wood or metal and another piece to be the sliding bit.   BTW, I struggle with the MM fence a lot. 

 

The problem with blades is that Jim uses a 4".  MM/Proxxon use a 3-1/4" blade.  I'm not sure the 4" will fit. I'll have to do some tear-down and see...  Gaeten suggested something that would also work.  I'd consider using a lathe and some brass rod or tubing and make and adapter for the blades.  It strikes me as totally bizarre that MM sells blades with two different sized arbor holes.  I'm also curious if the Dremel blades would fit the saw arbor.  The blades are smaller in diameter but there's a bigger selection of tooth count and styles.

Mark
"The shipwright is slow, but the wood is patient." - me

Current Build:                                                                                             
Past Builds:
 La Belle Poule 1765 - French Frigate from ANCRE plans - ON HOLD           Triton Cross-Section   

 NRG Hallf Hull Planking Kit                                                                            HMS Sphinx 1775 - Vanguard Models - 1:64               

 

Non-Ship Model:                                                                                         On hold, maybe forever:           

CH-53 Sikorsky - 1:48 - Revell - Completed                                                   Licorne - 1755 from Hahn Plans (Scratch) Version 2.0 (Abandoned)         

         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                

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Not knowing any better (well actually I do, but I didn't listen) I ordered a couple of blades from Jim. If I can't make them work I know a few people who would take them off my hands :D

 

I'm not real happy with the accuriser fence. It's okay, but there's a lot of fiddling to get what you want. I may want to think about some way to help it.

 

One question first about table saw fences in general-all fences that I've seen (I haven't looked closely at the Byrnes saw yet) seem to rely on parallel bars at the front and back of the saw for the fence to clamp on. Is there any reason (like safety related) that it can't be more positively locked in position? I'm thinking some type of threaded adjuster that would positively hold the fence in position.

 

Just thinking aloud :huh:

 

Thanks,

 

Harvey

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