Devin Camary Posted August 5, 2020 Share #1 Posted August 5, 2020 Hello there. As some of you may know, I am making a HMS Sovereign of the Seas model, which there may have been some problems with it due to missing details and interpretations. So, alongside it, I wish to make a ship that... might be a bit simpler to model but harder to study. The Henry Grace a Dieu, a carrack launched in 1514, which many know. But, what I am specifically wanting to model is her rebuild version, which would have looked more like a strong galleon than a carrack. Sadly, not many models look... right. And there was only one image of the time that showed how she looked around 1550. So, I must ask a few things, before I start the model... 1. When one rebuilds a ship, do they change the hull entirely, or do they keep the hull shape the same? 2. Did she really have 151 cannons? I know most were swivel guns, but I want to be sure. And if it was true, would her later form carry that many? 3. How does the rigging on the two mizzen masts work? With how the ropes hold the lateen sails? Would they not get caught on the flagpole? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Louie da fly Posted December 22, 2020 Share #2 Posted December 22, 2020 I only just saw this thread - sorry for not replying sooner. I'm afraid that picture is not from 1550 but much later. It depicts neither the original version of the Great Harry nor the later rebuild. This type of ship didn't come into use till at least 50 years later. This was discussed here: https://modelshipworld.com/topic/24505-the-great-harry-1511/?tab=comments#comment-720739 and here: https://modelshipworld.com/topic/24505-the-great-harry-1511/?tab=comments#comment-720739 The picture is taken from an 18th century print by Isaac Robert Cruickshank that can be found at the National Maritime Museum in Greenwich, England, claiming to have been taken from an engraving by Hans Holbein the Younger, who was contemporary with the Great Harry. Simply from the anachronistic details of the ship this is obviously not true, but it became the accepted idea of her appearance. A model based on the painting appeared in the Great Exhibition of 1851 and spawned a huge number of mass-produced copies - one of which is currently being restored by the Central Ohio Shipwrights - see https://modelshipworld.com/topic/24658-great-harry-henry-grace-a-dieu-restoration/. This ship is close to my heart because I built a model of her way back in the 1960s, based on the reconstruction drawings in Björn Landström's book The Ship and I am currently restoring her. See https://modelshipworld.com/topic/12426-henry-grace-a-dieu-great-harry-by-louie-da-fly-scale-1200-repaired-after-over-40-yrs-of-neglect/?tab=comments#comment-376471 1. Regarding your question about the rebuilding, I believe there was a discussion on the forum not that long ago about this subject but I didn't take a note of it at the time. We can be pretty sure the hull was kept much the same, but it would have been pierced for large cannon and the upper works would have been changed to some degree. The Anthony Roll and the Embarkation at Dover, the only surviving depictions that are contemporary, show how she was after the rebuild. The Embarkation, though showing an incident of 1510 is thought to have been produced in about 1545. So in 1545 she would still have looked like a very large carrack, but with a flat stern rather than the round one characteristic of carracks before about 1510. And we are fortunate nowadays to have the Mary Rose - a "sister ship" launched and rebuilt at the same time as the Great Harry but somewhat smaller - anything that applies to her would apply equally to the Great Harry. 2. According to the Anthony Roll, these are the guns the Great Harry was supplied with in 1545 (this info is available from a google search for "Anthony Roll Great Harry"). The numbers are in Roman numerals Gonnes of brasse Cannons - iiij Demy cannons - iij Culveryns - iiij Demy culveryns - ij Sakers - iiij Cannon perers - ij Fawcons - ij Gonnes of yron Porte pecys - xiiij Slynges - iiij Demy slynges - ij Fowlers - viij Baessys - lx Toppe pece - ij Hayle shotte pecys - xl Handgonnes complete - c This includes large and small guns. The brass guns were usually big, the iron ones often smaller, but the bigger ones were first in each list. The descriptions of Henrician guns is a whole subject in itself and is much more detailed than I can answer here. 3. For the belaying of the lateen topsail sheets, neither the Anthony Roll nor the Embarkation at Dover give any information. Björn Landström's reconstruction in his book The Ship shows booms angled out from the mast to take the sheets, but he was of the opinion that these sails were probably only for display, not for use. I hope this helps. Unfortunately the picture is not of the Great Harry of 1545. When I built my own model the Mary Rose hadn't been discovered, and there wasn't an internet, so it contains a lot of errors. What you decide to do with your own model is up to you, but it might be nice to see someone else take her on based on up-to-date info. If there's anything I can do to help, please don't hesitate to ask - or PM me if you wish. Devin Camary, mtaylor and KentM 3 Quote It's not really a ship model unless you've bled on it. CURRENT BUILDS Venetian merchant Ship from Basilica of San Marco Golden City - Ballarat paddlewheeler FINISHED Australian couta boat RMS Titanic HMVS Cerberus 11th century Byzantine dromon Winchelsea Nef - Late 13th century Mediaeval ship Henry Grace a Dieu - Rebuild of 1:200 model I started in 1967 https://modelshipworld.com/topic/36379-mistydeefer-by-louie-da-fly-finished-restoration-decor-yacht/#comment-1040663 Mistydeefer - restoration of decor model yacht Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Pellett Posted December 22, 2020 Share #3 Posted December 22, 2020 To further complicate the picture, I believe that there is archeological evidence of a large English sailing ship that was originally clinker planked. During a rebuild, the steps on the frames supporting the lapstrake planking were dubbed off and she was carvel planked. I’m not sure if this fits into the timeframe of the Great Harry but it shows the sort of things that were done. A number of years before Mary Rose had been investigated one of the noted British miniature model makers built a model of her (Mary Rose) based on the evidence that he could be perfectly sure of- A slightly choppy sea with two masts and tops sticking out of it! mtaylor and Louie da fly 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Louie da fly Posted December 22, 2020 Share #4 Posted December 22, 2020 (edited) On 12/23/2020 at 7:25 AM, Roger Pellett said: A slightly choppy sea with two masts and tops sticking out of it! Straight out of the Cowdray engraving! which also contains this picture of the Great Harry - unfortunately the original painting was destroyed in a fire and all we have is this 18th century copy, and I have my doubts about its faithfulness to the original - the copyist wasn't all that good at portraying ships. Steven Edited December 23, 2020 by Louie da fly Roger Pellett and mtaylor 2 Quote It's not really a ship model unless you've bled on it. CURRENT BUILDS Venetian merchant Ship from Basilica of San Marco Golden City - Ballarat paddlewheeler FINISHED Australian couta boat RMS Titanic HMVS Cerberus 11th century Byzantine dromon Winchelsea Nef - Late 13th century Mediaeval ship Henry Grace a Dieu - Rebuild of 1:200 model I started in 1967 https://modelshipworld.com/topic/36379-mistydeefer-by-louie-da-fly-finished-restoration-decor-yacht/#comment-1040663 Mistydeefer - restoration of decor model yacht Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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