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HMS Flirt 1772 by drumgerry - Vanguard Models - 1:64 Scale.


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I have a 25 year old model made entirely with CA other than bulkheads to frame. 
 

It’s fine. 
 

More impressive and a good way to put that fiction to an end is 25 year old CA made musical instruments that take far more abuse than a model on a shelf are still holding up. 

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I think the CA deterioration thing is a myth perhaps resulting from the purchase of cheap stuff which didn't stand the test of time.  I should add that for guitars etc that and gluing frets in are the only jobs I'd use CA for - joints that are under stress like those for braces, the bridge, joints in the neck etc I'd use Titebond original or hide glue.

 

Cheers, Gerry

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I use a lot of CA and have had no problems with the exception that I have had a partially used  bottle that seemed to lose its ability to work properly after sitting for an extended time. You can probably write a book on applicators and methods but experience and following the various logs here is a good start. I’ve used it successfully on wood, plastic, ABS, resin, photo etch brass, and combinations of all the above. Yes, I occasionally glue my fingers together or to whatever I’m working, and this can cause some heartburn, but if you’re careful this will not cause too much damage other than a temporary loss of finger prints. I’ve also got a couple of models I built over 20 years ago that are not showing any deterioration. 

 

Don

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No time like the present Bob!

 

Ps - if anyone has any tips for transferring the tick strip marks from the tick strips/bulkheads to the plank itself I'd be forever grateful.  Is it just a question of measuring the distance between bulkheads and marking out the points on the planks?

 

Cheers,  Gerry

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Progress has been sloooowww...never mind.  I'm learning something new and for me that's not a quick process.  There's also a fair few steps in my version of this method so there's that as well. Anyway here's a few pics from what I've been doing.  The big metal beastie is my bending iron! 

 

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Cheers, Gerry

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On 8/29/2020 at 6:04 PM, drumgerry said:

Is it just a question of measuring the distance between bulkheads and marking out the points on the planks?

If I've understood your question correctly, the answer's yes. Have you seen Chuck Passaro's planking videos? They're under <more> <planking techniques> on the menu bar.

 

Anyway, you're doing a really great job - your first planking looks as good as second planking so far!

 

Derek

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1 hour ago, Edwardkenway said:

Looks good Gerry, seems like you got just about sussed 😉

That's a monster of a plank bender!!

Haha Edward.  Yes it does everything from guitar sides to model ship planks!

 

23 minutes ago, DelF said:

If I've understood your question correctly, the answer's yes. Have you seen Chuck Passaro's planking videos? They're under <more> <planking techniques> on the menu bar.

 

Anyway, you're doing a really great job - your first planking looks as good as second planking so far!

 

Derek

Actually marking out the between bulkhead distance wasn't so difficult after all.  I made a masking tape template of the plank shape I needed with the bulkheads all marked on it - used the tick strips to mark the size needed at the various bulkheads directly on to the plank.  One template for port and one for starboard although I'm going to make new ones for the garboard up to the place where I finish this band of planking.  Not sure if that'll work in the same way as the stern area is a more complex shape. - sort of seeing how it pans out as I go!

 

I'm also bevelling the top edge of each plank where it fits to the plank above and I'm getting a good fit between them - I only cottoned on to this a few planks in so the fit is getting better the further down the bulkhead I'm getting.  In the areas in the middle bulkheads I'm only sanding the inside top corner to get a good fit between planks - this is a technique transferred directly over from musical instrument building (specifically adding binding to instruments).

 

Thanks for the kind words guys - much appreciated.

 

Cheers,  Gerry

 

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23 hours ago, drumgerry said:

although I'm going to make new ones for the garboard

The tick strips and planking fan method works great to build a tight hull.  It's a good practice to recheck those tick strips every few planks just to make sure you're still on track.  Beveling the top inside edge of the plank is also good practice for ensuring a tight fit, something even us non-guitar makers know to do.  Your knowledge of musical instruments is of great benefit, you're starting way ahead of most first-timers. As you'll see from the Chuck videos for the planks to curve up and in at the bow they need to be bent "the wrong way" bent down.  Your monster plank bender might make the edge (vs. flat side) bending a bit of a challenge but I assume its a tool for your instrument making you're comfortable with, I'm sure you'll sort it all out.

 

Nice work, the first planking looks tight and well tapered.

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18 hours ago, drumgerry said:

Thanks Sjors and Bob!  We'll see if you're still saying that when I finish the planking hehe!

 

Cheers,  Gerry

@Gerry,

 

Have faith in what you are doing.

You do it better then de most of us for the first time!
Be proud of it, as I should be it when this was my first planking!

 

Sjors

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Again guys thanks for the words of encouragement - really appreciated.

 

Yep Spyglass I'm going to try to make a gradual fade into the stem with the first planking and keel  - hopefully it'll work out.

 

Glenn - I know you're just pulling my leg a wee bit but I hope you don't think that I think I'm all that because of the guitar building thing.  The truth is I'm in awe of the skills displayed on the forum.  The ingenuity, the detail - truly inspiring.  I don't think instrument building would trouble a lot of the people on here if they were so inclined.  And yep the bending iron is from that arena - seems silly for me not to use it.  It has temp control and I'm used to it like you say.  Edge bending is ok with it but you need to apply the heat at the back edge of the plank as the wood fibres get compressed and if you bent it across it's width a gap would result.  The heat transfers so it works out.   My original templates are not giving me a perfect fit 7 or so planks down so new templates required I think.  One of the good things about the bending iron is you can easily adjust the curves up or down or lengthwise at any point.

 

Worrying about how I'm going to cope with planking the lower hull area.  After this band of planking I'm going to be left with a gap of about 6 planks width at the middle bulkheads but at the stern area the gap will be about 7-8 planks width.  I'm thinking stealers will be required.  At the bow I might have to taper the planks down too much so I'm thinking a drop plank there?  More new techniques for me to learn woohoo!

 

Cheers,  Gerry

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8 minutes ago, SpyGlass said:

I am too distressed with my own calamity and feel very reluctant to DARE to offer advice  but stealers at the stern are normal.

The plank next up from the garboard also rises a bit high - you might like to trim the top of that back maybe to half width ?

Just commented on your thread Spyglass.  These things are sent to try us.

 

It rises a bit high at the bow?  Ok....I could make a pig's ear trimming it "on model" perhaps.  Or remove it altogether.  Hmmmm......could I get away with it do you think as is?

 

Cheers,  Gerry

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21 hours ago, drumgerry said:

I know you're just pulling my leg a wee bit but I hope you don't think that I think I'm all that because of the guitar building thing. 

Not at all, I'm envious of having the skills it must take to build a musical instrument.  We build boats, but don't rely on the quality of our builds to create music...

 

Chris' designs are such you should not need a drop plank, provided you begin tapering early at the bow. I've not started my Flirt yet, a long way to go with Cheerful, I'd be surprised if stealers are needed, but they are relatively common and not a big deal - especially as the hull will be painted to the waterline so they won't be visible anyway. I do think perhaps your taper at the stern may be a bit too much. The tick marks there should go all the way to the keel, not just around the bulkhead. You end up sanding that down for the sternpost to fit, but the measurement should include the length of the stern. The number of planks at the stern should equal the length from the gunport pattern to the keel including curves - which makes paper tick strips essential to do the measuring.

 

I do all my plank bending with a board, clamps, and a travel iron. You'll see in my Cheerful log I bend any direction including some severe twists at the stern.  Cheerful is single planked so I had to be precise with the measuring, cutting, tapering, and bending.  It had no tapers at the stern, so there's that. Just to be contrarian, I don't think either bottom plank is too high, especially for the first planking and especially if you already think you need stealers.

 

A KEY point is this is your first planking - all you really need is for it to look like a ship when its done.  Fill it however it takes as long as you can sand it smooth to the shape it needs to be, including the abundant use of wood filler as needed.  The tick marks and the use of a planking fan might better guide the second planking to reduce the number of stealers, but as the hull will be painted using stealers on the second planking is fine.

 

I hope this helps and doesn't just confuse you more - I do explain a bit how I do it in my Cheerful build, linked in my signature line below.

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Not to sound corny but using your skills to build something beautiful is music of a different kind.

 

I think you're right Glenn about the taper at the stern.  I tapered to 2.5mm from the full width plank of 5mm and I think, as I begin to see how large is the space at the stern that I have to fill, it would have been better to take those planks to 3.5mm or 4mm.  But that's information I can take into the second planking so I've learned something from doing it.

 

I thought about the planks at the bottom and decided to leave as is.  I just know I'd have made a mess and been unhappy with the outcome.  Right now I'm turning my mind inside out trying to come up with a way to plank the stern area.  I've remade my tick strips and plank templates and I'll plank down the sides a bit more then re-assess.  No matter what the space will have to be filled - elegantly or not doesn't matter.  I do though want to maximise what I learn from the first planking so that I can make as good a job as poss of the second layer.

 

I'll need to go off and read your Cheerful build for some more info I think. 

 

Thanks again to all

 

Gerry

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Its really not enough to just make tick marks.  If you take the next step and use thin tape or thread along your tick marks, you can see if what you measured out is correct.   Trust me as there will always be a ton of mistakes until you do this step which most omit for whatever reason.   With your tape in place from bow to stern you can adjust them until it looks right when viewed from many angles.  Then remark those tick marks along your tape which is probably now better positioned than your initial tick marks alone.  This step should not be skipped and its probably one of the most important.

 

Hope that helps.  You wont get any dips in the the run of your planks this way.  Its like a quick test before you cut a single planks from wood.

 

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Chuck

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Dont get too hung up on tick marks etc for your first planking Gerry.

You REALLY are actually doing fine.

( Im NOT !!)

 

I  suggested taking back that lower plank to reduce the tapering you needed on the other strips to fill the gap.

Though - as you see from Chucks "lined out"  picture  - its good practice not to let the planking "climb" at the stem.

 

Chris himself puts stealers in first planking   - I am looking at my Speedy manual as I type which has some..

And I did notice he rather cleverly turns up the garboard strip at the stern a bit  for Speedy which really is like another stealer BUT for Flirt he  has turned that curve quite high - which sort of saves putting in about 2 or 3 stealers worth there ! You havent done that curve  so I reckon  2 /3 actual stealers should be fine

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2 hours ago, Chuck said:

Its really not enough to just make tick marks.  If you take the next step and use thin tape or thread along your tick marks, you can see if what you measured out is correct. 

Thanks for reminding how important that step is and that I really do need to do it, Chuck. Fantastic photos as well!

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12 hours ago, Chuck said:

Its really not enough to just make tick marks.  If you take the next step and use thin tape or thread along your tick marks, you can see if what you measured out is correct.   Trust me as there will always be a ton of mistakes until you do this step which most omit for whatever reason.   With your tape in place from bow to stern you can adjust them until it looks right when viewed from many angles.  Then remark those tick marks along your tape which is probably now better positioned than your initial tick marks alone.  This step should not be skipped and its probably one of the most important.

I'm just finding my feet and learning what's what Chuck so seeing those pics clarifies laying out the hull really well for me.  I did buy artists/pin striping tape from ebay and I tried to use it in the layout but it wasn't sticky enough. I managed after a fashion with it to lay out a couple of planking bands but no doubt with a bunch of mistakes. 

 

Like Spyglass says this is the first planking layer of a double planked hull so none of what I'm doing just now will actually be seen.  I'm treating it as a learning exercise though and I really appreciate any and all help that people such as yourself and the others on my build log have given.

 

I think I might have a go at laying out the hull as in your pics for the second planking with threads.  Did I read on one of the planking tutorials a little dab of hot melt glue at a couple of points is used to secure the threads?

 

11 hours ago, SpyGlass said:

Dont get too hung up on tick marks etc for your first planking Gerry.

You REALLY are actually doing fine.

( Im NOT !!)

 

I  suggested taking back that lower plank to reduce the tapering you needed on the other strips to fill the gap.

Though - as you see from Chucks "lined out"  picture  - its good practice not to let the planking "climb" at the stem.

 

Chris himself puts stealers in first planking   - I am looking at my Speedy manual as I type which has some..

And I did notice he rather cleverly turns up the garboard strip at the stern a bit  for Speedy which really is like another stealer BUT for Flirt he  has turned that curve quite high - which sort of saves putting in about 2 or 3 stealers worth there ! You havent done that curve  so I reckon  2 /3 actual stealers should be fine

 

The whole garboard area is still pretty much a mystery to me Spyglass.  Over the course of the next 10 or so ship models I'm hoping it becomes clearer!

 

Cheers,  Gerry

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Have a look at the Tally Ho series on you tube - he is rebuilding a yacht not disimilar in many way to Flirt in construction. You can see a real garboard being dealt with.

 

Simply put  - the special feature about a garboard in models and real life is that it has a twist from being the bottom of the hull  - round to be part of the upright stern bit!!

 And additionally , forrard ,the garboard has to contend with meeting the stem at a very shallow angle as it starts to curve up .

Real boats and very good models usually have a rabbet made for it to fit into the keel - Most kits dont.

 So basically in a model its a strip which turns from  near vertical at the stern to near horizontal and then back towards vertical - with a taper for the stem curve !

And finally in most models you have to chamfer the edge against the keel to fit snugly - but you seem to have done most of that.

 

This is a bad pic of one of mine before fitting - stern on right  -the edge facing you cant really see but is chamfered to fit the keel and the angle of chamfer increases to the left as the curve comes in to fit the stem curve

1779102430_bottonplan.thumb.jpg.931d1aa828e4f97e989c5ce72fc0835f.jpg

 

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