Glory of the Seas medium clipper 1869 - FINISHED - by rwiederrich - 1/96

[ClipperFan]

Rob, wow! Amazing! These miniature vessel comparisons are spot on!! This is pretty much all the proof we need to confirm the year's worth of painstaking research has clearly produced the proper results we all have been hoping for! Congratulations!!

Earlier today I sent Mike details on all the discoveries we've made and how our measured, scientific approach has completely reinterpreted what we thought about her appearance. I concluded with Vladimir's computer drafted bulwark profile and his bulwark kit created from it.

He's so busy he just sent me a reply that he appreciated the in-progress pics I shared with him. So I don't expect much different from this last message but as soon as I can I will include your latest comparisons. It's uncanny how much they match.

[rwiederrich]

“Rob, wow! Amazing! These miniature vessel comparisons are spot on!! This is pretty much all the proof we need to confirm the year's worth of painstaking research has clearly produced the proper results we all have been hoping for! Congratulations!!”

 

Good news Rich.   I’m glad we are getting there.   She does look good.  I’m glad you think I’ve done a good job.  Now to add the rail cap and the splash plate.  No to mention the rudder 

 

 

 

[ClipperFan]

Rob, when I look at the remarkable results craftsman like yourself and Vladimir produce, it's tough for me to not feel unworthy to be in the presence of such awesome talent. I feel I can at least contribute by doing my best to get the most accurate plans possible so that you guys can unleash your magic.

[rwiederrich]

10 hours ago, ClipperFan said:

Rob, when I look at the remarkable results craftsman like yourself and Vladimir produce, it's tough for me to not feel unworthy to be in the presence of such awesome talent. I feel I can at least contribute by doing my best to get the most accurate plans possible so that you guys can unleash your magic.

Again....thanks Rich.  Each little detail...combined with the last detail...has produced a uncanny likeness of Glory of the Seas for sure.

Combined talents of tenacious research, acute attention to detail and some good ole craftsmanship can accomplish much.

 

I will cut in the catheads before I finish up the main rail cap and splash plate on the forecastle.

 

I have come to a quandary of sorts when it comes to the rudder details.  For some reason it appears that the stern post cut away access for the rudder axle beam appears to be slightly off from images of Glory.  It almost seams to appear that in some cases it is correct, based upon the copper line and in other instances it appears incorrect, based upon the length of the axle beam evident in her beached and even fitting out photos.

Check out the images and you will also see.  I'm not say that I screwed up, but possibly the bulkhead designs might have not accounted for this detail, and probably should have been slightly altered.

 

This is just my own observation and since this model is a *near* replica, I can't truly complain.

 

  

[GrandpaPhil]

Very nice!

[ClipperFan]

3 hours ago, rwiederrich said:

Again....thanks Rich.  Each little detail...combined with the last detail...has produced a uncanny likeness of Glory of the Seas for sure.

Combined talents of tenacious research, acute attention to detail and some good ole craftsmanship can accomplish much.

 

I will cut in the catheads before I finish up the main rail cap and splash plate on the forecastle.

 

I have come to a quandary of sorts when it comes to the rudder details.  For some reason it appears that the stern post cut away access for the rudder axle beam appears to be slightly off from images of Glory.  It almost seams to appear that in some cases it is correct, based upon the copper line and in other instances it appears incorrect, based upon the length of the axle beam evident in her beached and even fitting out photos.

Check out the images and you will also see.  I'm not say that I screwed up, but possibly the bulkhead designs might have not accounted for this detail, and probably should have been slightly altered.

 

This is just my own observation and since this model is a *near* replica, I can't truly complain.

 

  

Rob, My sincere apologies, I think I missed correcting the rudder angle on Vladimir's profile. Instead of angling slightly outward as he had done, it should be exactly the opposite, canting just a touch inwards. I was so focused on getting her complex Counter and Stern details correct that I missed that rudder error.

As you know, I very strongly disagree with most of this plan ("Clipper Ship Captain", Appendix B page 214), as we've proven over the past year, unfortunately it just doesn't measure up at all to many newer images of Glory herself that Mike has so generously shared with us.

However ironically the rudder looks accurate. One thing I recently noticed when more carefully reviewing McKay's "Flying Fish" which I strongly suspect was a big inspiration for "GLORY of the SEAS" is that the rudder mount is not vertical. It cants slightly forward just a little. If you look carefully at Michael Mjelde's rudder section, you can see it. Again, it's subtle but definitely there. To verify this, look at the vertical lines, then look at the rudder line, it's not vertical. 

I also realized this when I had to adjust this section in my own exacting 1:96 scale lines. The shift forward from vertical is very small 1/8th" or exactly 1' to scale. Lines of my sketch are parallel and straight, the paper is just wrinkly. 

I hope this helps. 

Edited August 3, 2021 by ClipperFan
spelling correction, damn spelling czech

[rwiederrich]

2 hours ago, GrandpaPhil said:

Very nice!

Thanks for lookin in and for the fine comment...much appreciated.

 

Rob

[rwiederrich]

Rich....I'm talking about the rudder post length...as noted in my circled drawing.

 

I think I need to modify my model to reflect this issue.

[ClipperFan]

1 hour ago, rwiederrich said:

Rich....I'm talking about the rudder post length...as noted in my circled drawing.

 

I think I need to modify my model to reflect this issue.

Rob, You have sharp eyes! I completely missed that feature until you pointed it out just now. That rudder pin looks to be about 6 1/2' long beyond the exit of the Stern, which is quite substantial. When you consider this must have gone up to the Poop deck, this spar must have been enormous. I arrived at that external figure by adding the distance of the 4' main bulkhead above and the 2' drop below where you see the shadow crease formed by the transverse timber.

Now I better understand the issue you're facing. Obviously the little cut out isn't deep enough to accomodate such a significant piece. 

Here's an idea you might like. Instead of butchering the rudder section on your existing vessel, what about cutting a trench in the rudder piece so it slides neatly over that area? You won't have a flexible rudder but with a static display model, were you even planning to? 

The only other alternative is to cut 3/4ths of an inch into the rear of the Hull to accomodate this longer rudder mount. Again that's if you want the rudder to function.

[rwiederrich]

1 hour ago, ClipperFan said:

Rob, You have sharp eyes! I completely missed that feature until you pointed it out just now. That rudder pin looks to be about 6 1/2' long beyond the exit of the Stern, which is quite substantial. When you consider this must have gone up to the Poop deck, this spar must have been enormous. I arrived at that external figure by adding the distance of the 4' main bulkhead above and the 2' drop below where you see the shadow crease formed by the transverse timber.

Now I better understand the issue you're facing. Obviously the little cut out isn't deep enough to accomodate such a significant piece. 

Here's an idea you might like. Instead of butchering the rudder section on your existing vessel, what about cutting a trench in the rudder piece so it slides neatly over that area? You won't have a flexible rudder but with a static display model, were you even planning to? 

The only other alternative is to cut 3/4ths of an inch into the rear of the Hull to accomodate this longer rudder mount. Again that's if you want the rudder to function.

My stern post cut-out is a bit short...so is that of Vlad's.  He can still compensate or correct easily...where as I have to make greater concession.

 

From the fitting out pic it appears that there is ample clearance from the copper impinging on this rudder post.

 

I'll do some fenegaling to make things more accurate.  McKay's design allows for greater strength and  a longer attachment between the rudder itself and the rudder stem.

[Snug Harbor Johnny]

    OMGosh, the rudder post (vertical axle) situation was 'hiding in plain sight' all along.  Granted some photos don't show it well, but those that do reveal a long descending spar that would have been visible to anyone at the time - as the beam goes below the waterline (into the Muntz metal zone).  OK, the model is not so far along that you can't make a correction and then touch up the black paint and repair the applied metal as needed.  Sometimes models require 'adjustments' as one goes along in light of better information, and I'd hardly call the proposed correction 'butchering' any more that applying filler and re-sanding at an earlier stage - its all part of the process.  You've gone to such great lengths to gain accuracy from the start on this endeavor that I'm betting you won't let this opportunity to be true to the Glory pass by.  BTW, I went through your Great Republic build (initially to review your strip metal forming process shown there) and I was astonished to see the quality of a complicated scratch build.   Three cheers to you, sir!     Johnny

[ClipperFan]

Rob, unless this rudder post is longer than 6 1/2', it won't impede into even a 25' coppering line. When I extended the post to a scale 6 1/2' it should just about touch the yellow metal line but not pierce it, as far as I can tell. 

By the way, I shared your discovery on Vladimir's site so he can take the necessary steps to correct the oversight. Which brings up another interesting question. Nowhere do I see the traditional hinges so typical of these sailing ships. Do you suspect they're just hidden or is it possible that McKay used a more advanced system of hinges?

[ClipperFan]

Rob, Vladimir et all I just received this reply from Michael Mjelede, in response to my update about our year long journey of discovery about the impressively beautiful authentic lines of McKay's last Clipper. Verbatim, this is what he wrote: "Thanks for sending. I will 'digest' all that you, Rob and Vladimir have accomplished this week and get back to you. I think that it is outstanding what you collectively have done."

[rwiederrich]

Spent a bit of time working the rudder....

[ClipperFan]

Rob, as usual this rudder with its unusually strong post is Museum quality perfection. That was a great catch and once again will add to the uniqueness of this incredibly durable vessel.

[rwiederrich]

2 hours ago, ClipperFan said:

Rob, as usual this rudder with its unusually strong post is Museum quality perfection. That was a great catch and once again will add to the uniqueness of this incredibly durable vessel.

I appreciate that compliment....however, not sure it is museum quality perfection.  In the light of Banyon and EdT's mastery, I'd dare make sucha statement.  I do, however have a keen eye for details, not that I always implement them or can create them accurately.

 

Now, onto finishing up the topgallant rail/splash board and adding the catheads.

 

Rob

[ClipperFan]

10 minutes ago, rwiederrich said:

I appreciate that compliment....however, not sure it is museum quality perfection.  In the light of Banyon and EdT's mastery, I'd dare make sucha statement.  I do, however have a keen eye for details, not that I always implement them or can create them accurately.

 

Now, onto finishing up the topgallant rail/splash board and adding the catheads.

 

Rob

Rob, you're probably right. My enthusiasm for the project got the better of me. I don't know of anyone on a par with EdT, then again I have to admit I'm unfamiliar with Banyan's works. Still what you produce does speak for itself too.

[rwiederrich]

15 minutes ago, ClipperFan said:

Rob, you're probably right. My enthusiasm for the project got the better of me. I don't know of anyone on a par with EdT, then again I have to admit I'm unfamiliar with Banyan's works. Still what you produce does speak for itself too.

My greatest advocate is scale.  I can still achieve the accuracy required to make the model authentic and even acutely detailed, but those who work in larger scales must step up their game to include joinery, wood grain acuity, proper metallurgy and accurate rigging techniques for their period.  And lets not forget one most critical aspect....the *cover-up*.....Weather detailing....   Most of my skilled contemporaries do not weather their models...and when one limits or removes that aspect....they are forced to maintain a grueling polished perfection...a place I only go when I make telescope mirrors or when washing my car.

 

I am so honored that you think my work is museum quality.  To be honest, I do have several models I've created in several local museums...but that is the extent of my fame.   Your contribution goes back long before this current project...back when we talked when I was building my first 
Glory(You remember).  It is your own contributions that have verified and even pushed me me to desire to correct all my previous mistakes with my first attempt.  So my appreciation is deeply rooted and heartfelt.

 

Now, with all that emotion behind us, let us press forward and continue to create the best Glory we can.

 

Rob(your humble model shipwright and friend)

[Snug Harbor Johnny]

   Rob, you made telescope mirrors?  That is something I used to do, and count it a great achievement to have placed first at Stellafane with a 6" f5.4 and later moved up to a 16" f4.5    With mirrors one is polishing to within a fraction of a wavelength of light, and my winners (I won't mention the others that didn't 'measure up') tested at about 1/12.5 wavefront ... about as good as one can get and is the limit of accuracy with the Foucalt test.  Model building seems more forgiving by comparison.    Johnny

[ClipperFan]

3 hours ago, rwiederrich said:

My greatest advocate is scale.  I can still achieve the accuracy required to make the model authentic and even acutely detailed, but those who work in larger scales must step up their game to include joinery, wood grain acuity, proper metallurgy and accurate rigging techniques for their period.  And lets not forget one most critical aspect....the *cover-up*.....Weather detailing....   Most of my skilled contemporaries do not weather their models...and when one limits or removes that aspect....they are forced to maintain a grueling polished perfection...a place I only go when I make telescope mirrors or when washing my car.

 

I am so honored that you think my work is museum quality.  To be honest, I do have several models I've created in several local museums...but that is the extent of my fame.   Your contribution goes back long before this current project...back when we talked when I was building my first 
Glory(You remember).  It is your own contributions that have verified and even pushed me me to desire to correct all my previous mistakes with my first attempt.  So my appreciation is deeply rooted and heartfelt.

 

Now, with all that emotion behind us, let us press forward and continue to create the best Glory we can.

 

Rob(your humble model shipwright and friend)

Rob, I'm blown away with what you said. All I can say in reply is.... thanks. I have no other words.....

[rwiederrich]

4 hours ago, Snug Harbor Johnny said:

   Rob, you made telescope mirrors?  That is something I used to do, and count it a great achievement to have placed first at Stellafane with a 6" f5.4 and later moved up to a 16" f4.5    With mirrors one is polishing to within a fraction of a wavelength of light, and my winners (I won't mention the others that didn't 'measure up') tested at about 1/12.5 wavefront ... about as good as one can get and is the limit of accuracy with the Foucalt test.  Model building seems more forgiving by comparison.    Johnny

Stellafane graduate....cool.

Back in the day I had the pleasure of meeting John Dobson at RTMC in Cali.   I built only one 8" f/6 and focused on 12" to 18" f/4.5's   I made about 5 of them on my Porter polishing machine that I used for hogging and a 4 table machine that used to be a Navy optical lab machine.

I had a dedicated optical bench for Ronchi testing.

 

Yes...model ship building is far less demanding a hobby.  I still build refractors (My largest a 10"f/15), but no pushing glass(Well, I never actually pushed it, it was all done on machine...cept the figuring)

 

Thanks for peekin in.

 

Rob

[ClipperFan]

Rob, Snug Harbor Johnny, your brief reminiscence of crafting telescope mirrors has me curious. Were these for Nautical uses or astronomy? I always suspected Rob was an Engineer at heart, since he's constantly designing all these clever time saving devices for his Ship modeling needs. Crafting those highly polished mirrors to exacting specs must have been quite challenging and fascinating at the same time.

[rwiederrich]

2 hours ago, ClipperFan said:

Rob, Snug Harbor Johnny, your brief reminiscence of crafting telescope mirrors has me curious. Were these for Nautical uses or astronomy? I always suspected Rob was an Engineer at heart, since he's constantly designing all these clever time saving devices for his Ship modeling needs. Crafting those highly polished mirrors to exacting specs must have been quite challenging and fascinating at the same time.

Specifically astronomical.   Astronomy is my second hobby……..or is it my first hobby?  Here are some of my homemade telescopes.   My 6” f/15 and my big 10” f/15

Edited August 5, 2021 by rwiederrich

[ClipperFan]

30 minutes ago, rwiederrich said:

Specifically astronomical.   Astronomy is my second hobby……..or is it my first hobby?  Here are some of my homemade telescopes.   My 6” f/15 and my big 10” f/15

Rob, I see 3 telescopes. A smaller one mounted next to a larger next to it. My guess is you use the smaller first to locate a planet and then view it better with the larger one. But the 3 projecting out of the roof looks huge. Did you build all 3?

[rwiederrich]

I helped build the lime green one.   I built the smaller white scope Mounted on its counter arm. I used it for photography.  And I built the big green 10”,  but not it’s spotters.  That is it in its roll off roof observatory. I also built

Edited August 5, 2021 by rwiederrich

[Snug Harbor Johnny]

   Astronomy ... I was 'into it' for a long time, but ever increasing 'light pollution' made local observing unsatisfying.  Trips to 'dark skies' were far enough away to either require overnight camping or driving home in the wee hours.  Medical conditions take camping remotely off the table, and driving back after midnight is now too risky (too many near accidents and getting stopped for drowsy driving was an epiphany).  Some astro gear was sold, but the best was donated for the club auction.  U.S. Civil War re-enacting is also in my 'rear view mirror', but we still do occasional Colonial craft demos that include old-time gunsmithing, rope making, music and dance (the Admiral does ladies garments and accessories).  

 

  The pics below shows me figuring a first-prize winning 16" mirror, and the completed telescope ... it became too heavy for my aging back to handle.  Two others show me working on a long rifle, and playing a spinet harpsichord I built myself ('busted' a kit to make it better) ...  the Admiral made my costume.  It has been said, "Young men dream, old men have visions."  May your dreams bear fruit and may your visions be pleasant.     Johnny

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 6, 2021 by Snug Harbor Johnny
clarification

[ClipperFan]

8 minutes ago, Snug Harbor Johnny said:

   Astronomy ... I was 'into it' for a long time, but ever increasing 'light pollution' made local observing unsatisfying.  Trips to 'dark skies' were far enough away to either require overnight camping or driving home in the wee hours.  Medical conditions take camping remotely off the table, and driving back after midnight is now too risky (too many near accidents and getting stopped for suspected DUI was an epiphany).  Some astro gear was sold, but the best was donated for the club auction.  U.S. Civil War re-enacting is also in my 'rear view mirror', but we still do occasional Colonial craft demos that include old-time gunsmithing, rope making, music and dance (the Admiral does ladies garments and accessories).  

 

  The pics below shows me figuring a first-prize winning 16" mirror, and the completed telescope ... it became too heavy for my aging back to handle.  Two others show me working on a long rifle, and playing a spinet harpsichord I built myself ('busted' a kit to make it better) ...  the Admiral made my costume.  It has been said, "Young men dream, old men have visions."  May your dreams bear fruit and may your visions be pleasant.     Johnny

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Snug Harbor Johnny WOW! You are a genuine Renaissance Man! That is quite a list of accomplishments. If you don't mind clarifying some points on your first prize award winning 16" mirror. Is the small circle you're holding in your hand the prize or a component of the telescope. I see an identical pattern in the center of the very thick circular object on the table, which by educated guess is the 16" mirror. Are the white swirls part of the mirror or do they get cleaned off later?

That telescope looks massive and potentially heavy, it must have been a bear to transport. Were you able to take pictures through it?"

Finally you mentioned that you modified a harpsichord kit which you handcrafted. I have to believe you probably designed and sewed the entire 17th Century costume yourself too.

Oddly enough, as soon as I saw the pic of you at the harpsichord, I immediately thought of impish 'Trelane' from "The Squire of Gothos!" Except you had the more challenging job. He could just snap his fingers to make his fantasies real. 

[rwiederrich]

Fun astronomy stuff…….reinactments are fun too.  
 

 

Spent some time finishing up the top gallant rail cap.   Scribing both sides was a challenge.   
 

Rob

[Vladimir_Wairoa]

58 minutes ago, rwiederrich said:

Fun astronomy stuff…….reinactments are fun too.  
 

 

Spent some time finishing up the top gallant rail cap.   Scribing both sides was a challenge.   
 

Rob

I aplaud Rob. Well observed and truly believably executed. in your tiny scale this is mastery really. you getting dressed her by jevwellery already , soon to be ready go dancing  

Edited August 5, 2021 by Vladimir_Wairoa
add

[rwiederrich]

Finished up the top gallant rail cap and the install of the cat heads. 

Edited August 5, 2021 by rwiederrich