Jump to content

Recommended Posts

Posted

I'm getting ready to install the deck for my Lady Nelson (1803, 1:64) and I've been looking throughout MSW for a concise layout for what's at the edges of the deck.  All I've found are historical drawings and there are no instructions in the kit.  From the historical drawings, I drew what I think I should build, shown below.  Would appreciate any comments...John

image.png.30600ba346db575b31a3c418757f3c4d.png

.John

 

Current Build: Lady Nelson

Next up: Speedy (Vanguard Models)

 

Posted

Can you be a bit more precise about "edges"?    The edge on the bulwark side is covered by the waterway.  

Mark
"The shipwright is slow, but the wood is patient." - me

Current Build:                                                                                             
Past Builds:
 La Belle Poule 1765 - French Frigate from ANCRE plans - ON HOLD           Triton Cross-Section   

 NRG Hallf Hull Planking Kit                                                                            HMS Sphinx 1775 - Vanguard Models - 1:64               

 

Non-Ship Model:                                                                                         On hold, maybe forever:           

CH-53 Sikorsky - 1:48 - Revell - Completed                                                   Licorne - 1755 from Hahn Plans (Scratch) Version 2.0 (Abandoned)         

         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                

Posted

Mark, not sure of what you mean.  do you mean that the triangle I'm showing as a triangle is actually adjacent to the bulwark planks?  Where does the spirketting plank(s) go?  Hear is an adjusted drawing:

image.png.7c973008fa530d82566767f9a6f84e90.png

 

Gary, what you're showing in Figure 1 is basically that what I'm showing as the Margin Plank and the Waterway is one piece.  That may have been the case back then but most of the MSW build logs I've reviewed have it as two separate planks.  How have you dealt with this?

 

...John

.John

 

Current Build: Lady Nelson

Next up: Speedy (Vanguard Models)

 

Posted

John according to Peter Goodwin the water way and the margin plank was two different pieces of wood. . The waterway was a strake of specially fashioned plank worked fore and aft along each side of the ship across the ends of the deck beams. The function of the water way was to form a watertight seal between the side of the ship and the deck. If water was able to enter at this vulnerable area of the ships structure  both the ends of the beams and the ships timbers to which they were joined would become rotten. It was in the shape of a L as a easy way of looking at it shape.  The margin plank ran parallel to the ships side and fayed to the waterway. The function of this was to pre vent the normal straight deck planking from being tapered to a fine angle where it met the curvature of the ship's side at the fore and after ends. The margin plank was thus fashioned to receive the butts of those planks.  I added a couple of photo's showing how I did this on my Confederacy and a photo showing the Alfred. John if you put the waterway plank at the bottom  underneath the bulwark  planking and then butt the margin plank up next to the water way  that would be my way of doing it. I am not sure but am thinking that the bulwark planking and the spirketting are the same thing. Hope this helps sir. 

confederacy 55 040.jpg

PC030079.JPG

DSC_0011.JPG

Posted

John, 

There's something weird about your drawings.  I can't put my finger on it though.   Gary is right.   I'm attaching a cross section for a ship I'm building that might help you also.

Untitled.jpg.60ecc68c6419d0e4e388c22f5bc73353.jpg

Mark
"The shipwright is slow, but the wood is patient." - me

Current Build:                                                                                             
Past Builds:
 La Belle Poule 1765 - French Frigate from ANCRE plans - ON HOLD           Triton Cross-Section   

 NRG Hallf Hull Planking Kit                                                                            HMS Sphinx 1775 - Vanguard Models - 1:64               

 

Non-Ship Model:                                                                                         On hold, maybe forever:           

CH-53 Sikorsky - 1:48 - Revell - Completed                                                   Licorne - 1755 from Hahn Plans (Scratch) Version 2.0 (Abandoned)         

         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                

Posted

John,

Your diagrams in post #1 and post #4  are quick and dirty POB kit shortcuts .
The final appearance would be essentially the same as actual practice.  But what you show is very different from actual practice.

The actual waterway is a thick and wide timber,  with 5 surfaces in cross section.  It butts against the inside face of the top timbers.  It has a slope or bevel on the top inside corner.
The kit saves itself lot of work by calling a triangular strip of wood - the waterway.  It is just the bevel of the waterway.
The margin plank ( and the waterway ) sat on a mortise/notch cut into the top of the deck beams.  The margin plank(s) are about twice thickness of the deck planks.  They add strength at the side and lock the waterway in place.   On the surface, none of this is seen.  The kit uses deck planking as the margin plank.  I hope your drawing is not to scale.  The margin plank needs to be wide enough to take the nibs.  The deck planks should be 10" wide at the maximum.  A smaller ship may only have one strake of margin planking?


The spirketting as a sort of inside wale.  It provides strength and is also subject to stress from the forward cannon trucks.  It actually sits on the waterway and reaches the underside of the gun port sills.  
The inside bulwark planking starts above the spirketting and is maybe about one half the thickness.

 

In Gary's post #3,  the four strakes of top and butt are on the main (gun) deck of a frigate.  They lay under the monster size guns. I can imagine the on recoil that those guns may hop as well as jerk on the rope springs and ring bolts at the spirketting.  Planks with added thickness and interlocked joinery for the stress there.  I doubt that is detail would apply to Lady Nelson.

NRG member 50 years

 

Current:  

NMS

HMS Ajax 1767 - 74-gun 3rd rate - 1:192 POF exploration - works but too intense -no margin for error

HMS Centurion 1732 - 60-gun 4th rate - POF Navall Timber framing

HMS Beagle 1831 refiit  10-gun brig with a small mizzen - POF Navall (ish) Timber framing

The U.S. Ex. Ex. 1838-1842
Flying Fish 1838  pilot schooner - POF framed - ready for stern timbers
Porpose II  1836  brigantine/brig - POF framed - ready for hawse and stern timbers
Vincennes  1825  Sloop-of-War  - POF timbers assembled, need shaping
Peacock  1828  Sloop-of -War  - POF timbers ready for assembly
Sea Gull  1838  pilot schooner - POF timbers ready for assembly
Relief  1835 packet hull USN ship - POF timbers ready for assembly

Other

Portsmouth  1843  Sloop-of-War  - POF timbers ready for assembly
Le Commerce de Marseilles  1788   118 cannons - POF framed

La Renommee 1744 Frigate - POF framed - ready for hawse and stern timbers

 

Posted

891984127_Plankingsketch.JPG.be25a1c649d6056c2962452d6a03dce7.JPGJohn,

 

The odd thing I see in your drawing is the spirketting as a separate layer of planking inboard of the bulwark planking which includes the spirketting and quickwork or lining.   The spirketting is part of the bulwark inboard planking and is not an additional layer.  The spirketting would just be thicker piece or pieces as Jaager points out.   What you have labelled as the bulwark should be the frame (or if a POB, the top portion that appears as a frame.)  Using your sketch as a guide, I made some modifications that may help.  When all is said and done, if you go with the way you have it drawn,  it will look correct.    Note that according to Goodwin, the waterway was different in the  17th, 18th and 19th century although I do not know when exactly the changes were made.  The sketches I did are simplified, especially for the 19th century, but give you at least the shape of the waterway.

Allan

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

PLEASE take 30 SECONDS and sign up for the epic Nelson/Trafalgar project if you would like to see it made into a TV series.   Click on http://trafalgar.tv   There is no cost other than the 30 seconds of your time.  THANK YOU

 

Posted

I don't know much about LADY NELSON, but believe that she is a rather small ship ? There are many different ways for arranging the timberwork, depending of period, region and size of the ship.

 

In large ships, bulwark stanchions are pieces separate from the frames. Essentially, the hull ends at upper deck level with which it forms a closed, water-tight spaces (except for the hatches). The arrangements discussed above largely pertain to larger ships.

 

In small(er) ships, every other or every third frame is carried up to rail level and thus forms the bulwark stanchion. In general there is then no interior planking of the bulwark (and therefore no spirketting). In such cases there is a 'covering board' over the waterway that is notched or pierced for the stanchions. Sometimes, there aren't even separate covering boards and waterways, but just one massive plank. In such cases often the bulwark planking leaves a space of an inch or so above the covering board for effective drainage of the deck.

 

Not sure what is known about LADY NELSON, but it would be worthwhile to first check the sources on her and not to rely too much on the building instructions.

wefalck

 

panta rhei - Everything is in flux

 

 

M-et-M-72.jpg  Banner-AKHS-72.jpg  Banner-AAMM-72.jpg  ImagoOrbis-72.jpg
Posted

Druxey

How true that is.  That is why in the end I think it will look pretty much the same to the observer as they cannot see how it was all assembled. 

Allan 

 

PLEASE take 30 SECONDS and sign up for the epic Nelson/Trafalgar project if you would like to see it made into a TV series.   Click on http://trafalgar.tv   There is no cost other than the 30 seconds of your time.  THANK YOU

 

Posted

Wefalck:  The LN was never a ship. It is Amati's version of a typical HM Cutter, circa 1803 and based on the Sherbourne class of cutters and yes, very small.

 

Druxey: Yes, exactly.  Not can I duplicate how it was built in the real world but how can I, as a modeler, replicate what was built.  And based on the drawings in this thread, I think I would tweak my original sketch, by raising the spirketting plank, and moving the waterway (now a trapizoid instead of a triangle) and the margin plank against the bulwark planks, under the spirketting plank.  See below:

image.png.c14a7dab02b33e908d34358fd9a13c5c.pngFeedback on this appreciated and thanks for your help...John

.John

 

Current Build: Lady Nelson

Next up: Speedy (Vanguard Models)

 

Posted

Doesn't the NMM in Greenwich have some cutter models (from the time) on which one can see how it might have been done, so that one can see how to fake it ? Somehow, I have my doubts that these small cutters had bulwarks that were planked on the inside.

 

A very quick search with 'revenue cutter' turned this up:

 

j0619.jpg

Source: https://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/86219.html (National Maritime Museum, Greenwich)

 

j0622.jpg

Source: https://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/86220.html

 

And this, but from 1822:

 

j0517.jpg

Source: https://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/86297.html

 

With some more search, one probably can find more details.

 

wefalck

 

panta rhei - Everything is in flux

 

 

M-et-M-72.jpg  Banner-AKHS-72.jpg  Banner-AAMM-72.jpg  ImagoOrbis-72.jpg
Posted

If you look at the contemporary models of cutters in the gallery you will see some fine examples.  The spirketing is thicker and the top edge runs flush with the bottom of the gunports.   This can be easily faked and look just like actual practice.   For whatever reason this detail is always omitted on kits.  Even those so called newer and innovative kits.   Its easy to add this detail.

 

Whether in one layer or two.  I prefer two layers so I can adjust the run with the second layer of spirketing.  Then I follow that with a rounded or concave waterway.

 

water5.jpg

 

ladderpainted.jpg

 

cheerfulports.jpg

 

 

 

Posted

I'm building Cheerful, a 1806 cutter, just as Chuck describes.  It's fun to get all caught up in how it was done on a real ship, but there is the practicality of building a model that achieves the look, "faked" or not. I think your most recent drawing is consistent with what Chuck describes, and recognizing it is a block drawing, properly shows how it is done on a model.  

 

I built the Lady Nelson before knowing this and unfortunately without some of these features.  I'd encourage you to look at https://syrenshipmodelcompany.com and Chuck's monograph on Cheerful. The middle chapters address how to represent the deck of a cutter from a modeler's perspective.

Regards,

Glenn

 

Current Build: Don't know yet.
Completed Builds: HMS Winchelsea HM Flirt (paused) HM Cutter CheerfulLady NelsonAmati HMS Vanguard,  
HMS Pegasus, Fair American, HM Granado, HM Pickle, AVS, Pride of Baltimore, Bluenose

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...