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The Elusive Hulc by woodrat - FINISHED - a speculative reconstruction of a mediaeval merchantman. 1:32 plank-on-frame


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6 minutes ago, woodrat said:

It would look like a nude banana without them

That conjures up a mental picture that will give me bad dreams for weeks . . .

Bananas In Pyjamas : ABC iview

 

Are you thinking what I'm thinking B One? I think so B Two . . .

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Castles to avoid the “bare” look, and possibly a cherry each end?

Or how about the little trumpeters as shown on one of the seals?

 

The whole shipbuilding world is your lobster, until and unless someone finds a wreck, as-built plans or a time machine.

The thought has just come to me that there is probably more information and representations of the toothed sea-monsters available, than about the hulc!

Andrew

 

"Pas d’elle yeux Rhone que nous”

 

Kits under the bench: Le Hussard (Started in the 1980s)

Scratch builds:               Volante, Brig (R/C): Footy Drakkar "Rodolm" (R/C).  Longship Osberg (R/C)

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"Would you tell me, please, which way I ought to go from here?"

"That depends a good deal on where you want to get to," said the Cat.

I don't much care where--" said Alice.

"Then it doesn't matter which way you go," said the Cat.

 

10 hours ago, liteflight said:

The thought has just come to me that there is probably more information and representations of the toothed sea-monsters available, than about the hulc!

But there ARE toothed sea-monsters. That's why I don't surf.

And there are enough mediaeval illustrations, apart from coins and seals, that show, in some detail, reverse clinker to justify such a representation. I will show the pictures in a later post.

 

These pictures of a patia show reverse clinker being used to produce a large upsweep to the bow. The workmanship is superb. A patia is worth a model in its own right.

Dick

 

1212066528_patiareverseclinker05.thumb.jpg.d7a2eeb2ecc39d14fa038e89f4b16dd3.jpg

 

2104217920_patiareverseclinker06.jpg.50a15b485e04a9210744781ecaf6c97e.jpg

 

1266343680_patiareverseclinker07.jpg.f5556302db03b0ecc7e17f67e8e3ff0f.jpg

Current build: 

 Le Gros Ventre 1:48 POF   http://modelshipworld.com/index.php?/topic/564-le-gros-ventre-by-woodrat-scale-1-48-pof-1767-french-exploration-vessel/

 

Past builds:

Mycenaean War Galley by Woodrat - 1:48 - Shell first Plank on Frame:https://modelshipworld.com/topic/33384-mycenaean-war-galley-by-woodrat-148-shell-first-plank-on-frame

Venetian round ship 14th century by Woodrat fully framed - 1:40 scalCompleted

https://modelshipworld.com/index.php?/topic/17991-venetian-round-ship-14th-century-by-woodrat-fully-framed-140-scale

Venetian Carrack or Cocha 1/64 by woodrat   https://modelshipworld.com/index.php?/topic/4915-venetian-carrack-or-cocha-164-by-woodrat        completed

United States Frigate Essex 1:64 POF   http://modelshipworld.com/index.php?/topic/4496-usf-essex-by-woodrat-scale-1-64-fully-framed-from-takakjian-plans/ - completed 

Yenikapi12 by Woodrat - 1/16 scale - a small Byzantine merchant vessel of the 9th century

https://modelshipworld.com/topic/23815-yenikapi12-by-woodrat-116-scale-a-small-byzantine-merchant-vessel-of-the-9th-century-finished/

The Incredible Hulc by Woodrat - an experimental reconstruction of a mediaeval transport

https://modelshipworld.com/topic/25641-the-elusive-hulc-by-woodrat-finished-a-speculative-reconstruction-of-a-mediaeval-merchantman-132-plank-on-frame/

 

 

 

Location: Perth, Western Australia

 

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That's really fascinating, Dick. I suppose there's no good reason not to have reverse clinker, unless it caused structural problems somehow. It would be interesting to know what happens at the transition between reverse clinker and the rest.

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Another very interesting subject you are modelling here Dick.  I have been lurking on this topic so thought I had better join the crowd before the pop-corn runs out ( I would settle for a pack of maltesers though :) )

 

cheers

 

Pat

If at first you do not suceed, try, and then try again!
Current build: HMCSS Victoria (Scratch)

Next build: HMAS Vampire (3D printed resin, scratch 1:350)

Built:          Battle Station (Scratch) and HM Bark Endeavour 1768 (kit 1:64)

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Great pictures of the reverse clinker in action.  I can see now one advantage - it makes the upsweep not only possible but rather more straightforward.  There is a lot of overlap on each strake, and plenty of nailing “meat”

I think it makes for a strong and heavy hull, and would be less flexible than the Nordic tradition.

 

6 hours ago, woodrat said:

Would you tell me, please, which way I ought to go from here?"

"That depends a good deal on where you want to get to," said the Cat.

I don't much care where--" said Alice.

"Then it doesn't matter which way you go," said the Cat.

And correspondingly, under these circumstances you cannot be lost.

But a Catnav would be handy

Andrew

 

"Pas d’elle yeux Rhone que nous”

 

Kits under the bench: Le Hussard (Started in the 1980s)

Scratch builds:               Volante, Brig (R/C): Footy Drakkar "Rodolm" (R/C).  Longship Osberg (R/C)

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I have a couple more drafts. One is long and wide the other is shorter and narrower.2082862599_hulkshear01.jpg.edd64abaa253ff85852514e1b546c831.jpg

 

64689477_hulkshear02.jpg.2c57db6e1455c15d07a8c40b9f0c163c.jpg

 

Cheers

Dick

 

Current build: 

 Le Gros Ventre 1:48 POF   http://modelshipworld.com/index.php?/topic/564-le-gros-ventre-by-woodrat-scale-1-48-pof-1767-french-exploration-vessel/

 

Past builds:

Mycenaean War Galley by Woodrat - 1:48 - Shell first Plank on Frame:https://modelshipworld.com/topic/33384-mycenaean-war-galley-by-woodrat-148-shell-first-plank-on-frame

Venetian round ship 14th century by Woodrat fully framed - 1:40 scalCompleted

https://modelshipworld.com/index.php?/topic/17991-venetian-round-ship-14th-century-by-woodrat-fully-framed-140-scale

Venetian Carrack or Cocha 1/64 by woodrat   https://modelshipworld.com/index.php?/topic/4915-venetian-carrack-or-cocha-164-by-woodrat        completed

United States Frigate Essex 1:64 POF   http://modelshipworld.com/index.php?/topic/4496-usf-essex-by-woodrat-scale-1-64-fully-framed-from-takakjian-plans/ - completed 

Yenikapi12 by Woodrat - 1/16 scale - a small Byzantine merchant vessel of the 9th century

https://modelshipworld.com/topic/23815-yenikapi12-by-woodrat-116-scale-a-small-byzantine-merchant-vessel-of-the-9th-century-finished/

The Incredible Hulc by Woodrat - an experimental reconstruction of a mediaeval transport

https://modelshipworld.com/topic/25641-the-elusive-hulc-by-woodrat-finished-a-speculative-reconstruction-of-a-mediaeval-merchantman-132-plank-on-frame/

 

 

 

Location: Perth, Western Australia

 

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It's always difficult to work out a realistic shape for a ship based almost entirely on contemporary pictures. Did they shorten the thing to fit on the town seals? Almost certainly. But how much? What's a sensible shape for a merchant ship? I know I used to think of carracks as much tubbier than they really were, based mostly on contemporary pictures. It was quite a surprise to find how relatively narrow a "round" ship was. 

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My first reaction is that they would be livelier than a flower class corvette.
 The extreme rocker and rounded cross section would, I suspect, allow it to pitch and roll like a good’un.


But reverse clinker would facilitate the banana shape, if I have understood the issues.

I still Look forward to hearing the other advantages 😄

 

 

 

Andrew

 

"Pas d’elle yeux Rhone que nous”

 

Kits under the bench: Le Hussard (Started in the 1980s)

Scratch builds:               Volante, Brig (R/C): Footy Drakkar "Rodolm" (R/C).  Longship Osberg (R/C)

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Surely the "banana shape" is merely an artifact of the artists who often had to fit the ship on a circular medallion. It seems much more likely that these nefs, hulcs or urca were built in similar fashion to longships and knarrs, with a curved bowpost and sternpost that lent itself to stylish renditions of the banana shape by artists.

 

That's my take on it, after having another look at all the art posted on this and nearby threads. I'd go with your "long and wide" version, but perhaps keep the keel more flattish over more of its length before curving up into the bow and sternposts.

 

That's what I did, even if I mistakenly labelled by latest model as a "cog" before being (quite rightly) corrected by the medieval ship scholars here. I'm going with the "nef" label, as an intermediate step between William the Conqueror's ships, as shown on the bayeux tapestry, which look very much like knarrs, and the "white ship" and later similar vessels which keep the curved bow and sternposts, and a side rudder, while adding raised fighting castles.

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  • 4 weeks later...

Just to show I haven't repented the errors of my ways, here is the "keel plank" being heat bent to shape and stuck to supporting molds .

 

DSCN2008a.jpg.ed6a5ebe30160102b7783a64b61e7949.jpg

 

DSCN2009a.jpg.1f367f90dded7576bfdf8b175f4ade93.jpg

 

DSCN2010a.jpg.3e4f41b637f88fce34163e0ed5947a09.jpg

 

Cheerio

Dick

Current build: 

 Le Gros Ventre 1:48 POF   http://modelshipworld.com/index.php?/topic/564-le-gros-ventre-by-woodrat-scale-1-48-pof-1767-french-exploration-vessel/

 

Past builds:

Mycenaean War Galley by Woodrat - 1:48 - Shell first Plank on Frame:https://modelshipworld.com/topic/33384-mycenaean-war-galley-by-woodrat-148-shell-first-plank-on-frame

Venetian round ship 14th century by Woodrat fully framed - 1:40 scalCompleted

https://modelshipworld.com/index.php?/topic/17991-venetian-round-ship-14th-century-by-woodrat-fully-framed-140-scale

Venetian Carrack or Cocha 1/64 by woodrat   https://modelshipworld.com/index.php?/topic/4915-venetian-carrack-or-cocha-164-by-woodrat        completed

United States Frigate Essex 1:64 POF   http://modelshipworld.com/index.php?/topic/4496-usf-essex-by-woodrat-scale-1-64-fully-framed-from-takakjian-plans/ - completed 

Yenikapi12 by Woodrat - 1/16 scale - a small Byzantine merchant vessel of the 9th century

https://modelshipworld.com/topic/23815-yenikapi12-by-woodrat-116-scale-a-small-byzantine-merchant-vessel-of-the-9th-century-finished/

The Incredible Hulc by Woodrat - an experimental reconstruction of a mediaeval transport

https://modelshipworld.com/topic/25641-the-elusive-hulc-by-woodrat-finished-a-speculative-reconstruction-of-a-mediaeval-merchantman-132-plank-on-frame/

 

 

 

Location: Perth, Western Australia

 

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My God! He's actually doing it! All this time I'd thought (hoped) it was all a bad dream . . . :D

 

Just joking, Dick. In fact this could be really interesting and instructive.

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13 hours ago, woodrat said:

Just to show I haven't repented the errors of my ways

eek!

 

 

dsc_0944_2s.jpg

Seal of the Admiralty Court of Bristol 2b.jpg

Craig.

 

I do know, that I don't know, a whole lot more, than I do know.

 

Current Build: 1:16 Bounty Launch Scratch build.   1:16 Kitty -18 Foot Racing Sloop   1:50 Le Renard   HM Cutter Lapwing 1816  Lapwing Drawings

Completed....: 1:16 16' Cutter Scratch build.

Discussion....: Bounty Boats Facts

 

 

 

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Here is the start of planking.

The garbord strakes

DSCN2011a.jpg.2a9911666ba3328b387e8820478ec2c1.jpg

 

and the next two strakes. Note the rabbeted breasthook at stem and stern into which to bolt the strakes. This I think is the "collar" seen on a lot of pictures of hulcs.1542272632_hulcseal04.jpg.6bd70deab291c1767a9d3aab598c65b5.jpg  607829812_Worcester_chronicle_-_Henri_I_in_a_hulk02.jpg.0ac5defc367d00329b164f602537395e.jpg

 

DSCN2012a.jpg.b0eeeef89df51ac2c9cc29185cd09a58.jpg

 

DSCN2013a.jpg.7d58baa09d646d6d962012e0f660ad88.jpg

 

DSCN2014a.jpg.502e0e8d37c08a8df558978f767adbe2.jpg

 

Cheers

Dick

hulc seal 03.jpg

Current build: 

 Le Gros Ventre 1:48 POF   http://modelshipworld.com/index.php?/topic/564-le-gros-ventre-by-woodrat-scale-1-48-pof-1767-french-exploration-vessel/

 

Past builds:

Mycenaean War Galley by Woodrat - 1:48 - Shell first Plank on Frame:https://modelshipworld.com/topic/33384-mycenaean-war-galley-by-woodrat-148-shell-first-plank-on-frame

Venetian round ship 14th century by Woodrat fully framed - 1:40 scalCompleted

https://modelshipworld.com/index.php?/topic/17991-venetian-round-ship-14th-century-by-woodrat-fully-framed-140-scale

Venetian Carrack or Cocha 1/64 by woodrat   https://modelshipworld.com/index.php?/topic/4915-venetian-carrack-or-cocha-164-by-woodrat        completed

United States Frigate Essex 1:64 POF   http://modelshipworld.com/index.php?/topic/4496-usf-essex-by-woodrat-scale-1-64-fully-framed-from-takakjian-plans/ - completed 

Yenikapi12 by Woodrat - 1/16 scale - a small Byzantine merchant vessel of the 9th century

https://modelshipworld.com/topic/23815-yenikapi12-by-woodrat-116-scale-a-small-byzantine-merchant-vessel-of-the-9th-century-finished/

The Incredible Hulc by Woodrat - an experimental reconstruction of a mediaeval transport

https://modelshipworld.com/topic/25641-the-elusive-hulc-by-woodrat-finished-a-speculative-reconstruction-of-a-mediaeval-merchantman-132-plank-on-frame/

 

 

 

Location: Perth, Western Australia

 

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4 minutes ago, woodrat said:

Note the rabbeted breasthook at stem and stern into which to bolt the strakes. This I think is the "collar" seen on a lot of pictures of hulcs

 

Most ingenious, Dick. And up to your usual superb standard of workmanship.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Fascinating!
 You, Sir are a skilled craftsman with a frumious mind😀

Andrew

 

"Pas d’elle yeux Rhone que nous”

 

Kits under the bench: Le Hussard (Started in the 1980s)

Scratch builds:               Volante, Brig (R/C): Footy Drakkar "Rodolm" (R/C).  Longship Osberg (R/C)

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Thanks, Steven, Alberto, andrew and Tony. The Beast is taking shape but I don't know anymore than you what this will be. Since I have applied the bottom strakes, the hull has banana'd a bit and the stress generated has pulled  the keel plank away from the support. This seems to indicate that the hull is finding its own curvature. I rather like the appearance so far and no matter if such a beast was never built in Europe, I'm sure there is an alternate snarky universe in which it was.

dscn2015a.jpg.a13823550233b5f0c5d5a9ea618f25e6.jpg

 

DSCN2016a.jpg.1a9f1bcd1897af19ecfbe9321881123d.jpg

 

DSCN2017a.jpg.deb107cede7596fe5ce588a1fe53535a.jpg

 

DSCN2018a.jpg.898d9530174068ab40959b6869501177.jpg

 

DSCN2020a.jpg.1445adc2671c011785a3ac9c15f5d88e.jpg

 

Cheers

Dick

Current build: 

 Le Gros Ventre 1:48 POF   http://modelshipworld.com/index.php?/topic/564-le-gros-ventre-by-woodrat-scale-1-48-pof-1767-french-exploration-vessel/

 

Past builds:

Mycenaean War Galley by Woodrat - 1:48 - Shell first Plank on Frame:https://modelshipworld.com/topic/33384-mycenaean-war-galley-by-woodrat-148-shell-first-plank-on-frame

Venetian round ship 14th century by Woodrat fully framed - 1:40 scalCompleted

https://modelshipworld.com/index.php?/topic/17991-venetian-round-ship-14th-century-by-woodrat-fully-framed-140-scale

Venetian Carrack or Cocha 1/64 by woodrat   https://modelshipworld.com/index.php?/topic/4915-venetian-carrack-or-cocha-164-by-woodrat        completed

United States Frigate Essex 1:64 POF   http://modelshipworld.com/index.php?/topic/4496-usf-essex-by-woodrat-scale-1-64-fully-framed-from-takakjian-plans/ - completed 

Yenikapi12 by Woodrat - 1/16 scale - a small Byzantine merchant vessel of the 9th century

https://modelshipworld.com/topic/23815-yenikapi12-by-woodrat-116-scale-a-small-byzantine-merchant-vessel-of-the-9th-century-finished/

The Incredible Hulc by Woodrat - an experimental reconstruction of a mediaeval transport

https://modelshipworld.com/topic/25641-the-elusive-hulc-by-woodrat-finished-a-speculative-reconstruction-of-a-mediaeval-merchantman-132-plank-on-frame/

 

 

 

Location: Perth, Western Australia

 

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Well built, Sir!

At the moment I am reminded more of a pleated wooden loincloth than a banana, but I keep an open mind😁

15 hours ago, woodrat said:

r and no matter if such a beast was never built in Europe, I'm sure there is an alternate snarky universe in which it was.

Very true, Dick.

hold that thought!

Andrew

 

"Pas d’elle yeux Rhone que nous”

 

Kits under the bench: Le Hussard (Started in the 1980s)

Scratch builds:               Volante, Brig (R/C): Footy Drakkar "Rodolm" (R/C).  Longship Osberg (R/C)

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16 hours ago, woodrat said:

I'm sure there is an alternate snarky universe in which it was.

 

But  . . . beware of the day, if your snark be a Boojum! For then - you will softly and suddenly vanish away, and never be met with again . . .

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7 hours ago, Louie da fly said:

beware of the day, if your snark be a Boojum! For then - you will softly and suddenly vanish away, and never be met with again

It is comforting to think that the unfortunate Baker, when he did vanish away, reappeared in the universe where all Boojums have vanished away.😁

Cheers

The Beaver

Edited by woodrat

Current build: 

 Le Gros Ventre 1:48 POF   http://modelshipworld.com/index.php?/topic/564-le-gros-ventre-by-woodrat-scale-1-48-pof-1767-french-exploration-vessel/

 

Past builds:

Mycenaean War Galley by Woodrat - 1:48 - Shell first Plank on Frame:https://modelshipworld.com/topic/33384-mycenaean-war-galley-by-woodrat-148-shell-first-plank-on-frame

Venetian round ship 14th century by Woodrat fully framed - 1:40 scalCompleted

https://modelshipworld.com/index.php?/topic/17991-venetian-round-ship-14th-century-by-woodrat-fully-framed-140-scale

Venetian Carrack or Cocha 1/64 by woodrat   https://modelshipworld.com/index.php?/topic/4915-venetian-carrack-or-cocha-164-by-woodrat        completed

United States Frigate Essex 1:64 POF   http://modelshipworld.com/index.php?/topic/4496-usf-essex-by-woodrat-scale-1-64-fully-framed-from-takakjian-plans/ - completed 

Yenikapi12 by Woodrat - 1/16 scale - a small Byzantine merchant vessel of the 9th century

https://modelshipworld.com/topic/23815-yenikapi12-by-woodrat-116-scale-a-small-byzantine-merchant-vessel-of-the-9th-century-finished/

The Incredible Hulc by Woodrat - an experimental reconstruction of a mediaeval transport

https://modelshipworld.com/topic/25641-the-elusive-hulc-by-woodrat-finished-a-speculative-reconstruction-of-a-mediaeval-merchantman-132-plank-on-frame/

 

 

 

Location: Perth, Western Australia

 

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On 11/2/2020 at 12:24 PM, liteflight said:

 

At the moment I am

reminded more of a pleated wooden loincloth than a banana, but I keep an open mind😁

 

That was a bit below the belt, Andrew!

Current build: 

 Le Gros Ventre 1:48 POF   http://modelshipworld.com/index.php?/topic/564-le-gros-ventre-by-woodrat-scale-1-48-pof-1767-french-exploration-vessel/

 

Past builds:

Mycenaean War Galley by Woodrat - 1:48 - Shell first Plank on Frame:https://modelshipworld.com/topic/33384-mycenaean-war-galley-by-woodrat-148-shell-first-plank-on-frame

Venetian round ship 14th century by Woodrat fully framed - 1:40 scalCompleted

https://modelshipworld.com/index.php?/topic/17991-venetian-round-ship-14th-century-by-woodrat-fully-framed-140-scale

Venetian Carrack or Cocha 1/64 by woodrat   https://modelshipworld.com/index.php?/topic/4915-venetian-carrack-or-cocha-164-by-woodrat        completed

United States Frigate Essex 1:64 POF   http://modelshipworld.com/index.php?/topic/4496-usf-essex-by-woodrat-scale-1-64-fully-framed-from-takakjian-plans/ - completed 

Yenikapi12 by Woodrat - 1/16 scale - a small Byzantine merchant vessel of the 9th century

https://modelshipworld.com/topic/23815-yenikapi12-by-woodrat-116-scale-a-small-byzantine-merchant-vessel-of-the-9th-century-finished/

The Incredible Hulc by Woodrat - an experimental reconstruction of a mediaeval transport

https://modelshipworld.com/topic/25641-the-elusive-hulc-by-woodrat-finished-a-speculative-reconstruction-of-a-mediaeval-merchantman-132-plank-on-frame/

 

 

 

Location: Perth, Western Australia

 

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  • 2 weeks later...

I have completed planking up to deck level and taken the hull off its stand. The hull is seen to be quite barge-like which I believe the hulc was , if it existed, and betrays its probable fluvial origin. Obviously there would be a tendency to leeway and lee boards are not fitted. One of the advantages of reverse-clinker, it is said, is the resistance to leeway given by the horizontally directed plank edges . It is also said that the same feature minimises the amount of heeling in a cross sea. Perhaps the sailors can tell me if this is all cods. The hull is very light but quite strong even without rivets, which I will fit soon. Floors and cross members will add tranverse strength and hopefully prevent twisting or hogging.

 

 

rivets,DSCN2034a.jpg.cb73a82c9eb104578a6044b40308a024.jpg

 

dscn2036a.jpg.bbeda18cd9575857e337f7d0fccf724d.jpg

 

DSCN2038a.jpg.16b6911458c33a699c9ad87f6b6953f1.jpg

 

DSCN2039a.jpg.513500c50c440c145a438f264015d407.jpg

 

DSCN2041a.jpg.c9c2d998798ba72a80b3e1e9e677f9be.jpg

 

Cheers

Dick

 

 

 

 

 

 

Current build: 

 Le Gros Ventre 1:48 POF   http://modelshipworld.com/index.php?/topic/564-le-gros-ventre-by-woodrat-scale-1-48-pof-1767-french-exploration-vessel/

 

Past builds:

Mycenaean War Galley by Woodrat - 1:48 - Shell first Plank on Frame:https://modelshipworld.com/topic/33384-mycenaean-war-galley-by-woodrat-148-shell-first-plank-on-frame

Venetian round ship 14th century by Woodrat fully framed - 1:40 scalCompleted

https://modelshipworld.com/index.php?/topic/17991-venetian-round-ship-14th-century-by-woodrat-fully-framed-140-scale

Venetian Carrack or Cocha 1/64 by woodrat   https://modelshipworld.com/index.php?/topic/4915-venetian-carrack-or-cocha-164-by-woodrat        completed

United States Frigate Essex 1:64 POF   http://modelshipworld.com/index.php?/topic/4496-usf-essex-by-woodrat-scale-1-64-fully-framed-from-takakjian-plans/ - completed 

Yenikapi12 by Woodrat - 1/16 scale - a small Byzantine merchant vessel of the 9th century

https://modelshipworld.com/topic/23815-yenikapi12-by-woodrat-116-scale-a-small-byzantine-merchant-vessel-of-the-9th-century-finished/

The Incredible Hulc by Woodrat - an experimental reconstruction of a mediaeval transport

https://modelshipworld.com/topic/25641-the-elusive-hulc-by-woodrat-finished-a-speculative-reconstruction-of-a-mediaeval-merchantman-132-plank-on-frame/

 

 

 

Location: Perth, Western Australia

 

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