Le Soleil Royal by John Clements - Heller - 1/100

[Ian_Grant]

John, the SR is in my stash but I keep putting it off and starting other models.  I love your quarter gallery modifications and the re-purposed lower gallery in the stern, also the figurehead colours. I will be referring back to this log of yours whenever I get around to mine. If I ever do 🙄

[John Clements]

Thanks for your comments, EJ & Ian.

I am experimenting with different sizes of blocks and eyebolt positions on the gun tackles. There are an awful lot of them so it will be some time before there is any visible progress!

[John Clements]

I have now experimented with the 2mm and 2.5mm blocks for the gun tackles and the outcome is in the pictures below. Not perfect but enough to show the intention, I hope. I do think the 3mm blocks are too big. The 2mm blocks are fine and are really the only ones that show a gap between the blocks of the front tackle but are difficult to manage (several just disappeared into the ether whilst I was rigging them), so I have settled on a mixed economy - 2mm blocks for the front tackle and 2.5mm for the rear. I have also moved the eyebolt at the rear of the carriage a little further back and am attaching both tackles to it, which does accord with the diagram Radimir sent me for continental tackles. I also have to be more careful to make sure that the hooks are in alignment so the tackle is not twisted, as some of these are, especially for the more visible guns (these are mainly under the fo'c'sle deck).

It's good to have come to a conclusion on this - only another 30 guns to go!

[Bill Morrison]

Have you checked out the Wolfram zu Mondfeld Historic Ship Models?  It is a thorough source of information about various subjects in ship modeling that I find quite helpful.  One feature includes a chart of computations between mast and spar computations for correct sizing.  It deserves your attention . . .

 

Bill

[John Clements]

Thanks, Bill. I will certainly have a look at that before going further.

[John Clements]

I bought a second-hand copy of the Mondfeld book. Yes, it is full of fascinating information and very easy to read. I quickly discovered some explanations of terms I had not understood in Boudriot and Lemineur. It turns out though that it is not so useful for the gun tackle questions, not because the answers are not there but because I already had them. The St Philippe book gives the rope sizes for each size of gun, and I have a table from Radimir which explains which block to use for each size of rope. I just hadn't put the two together.

So far, so good. It seems that the 3mm blocks are correct but then, to my mind, the aesthetics take precedence.  The 3mm blocks simply don't look right because there is insufficient space between the eyebolts for the line to be taut. That is what shows in the picture above. and I think part of the problem is that the hooks and eyes are over-scale, especially the hooks,  and don't leave enough space for the blocks to separate.

I do think that although the blocks on the front tackles can be very close, they do need to have a gap between them to look tidy and realistic, so I think now I will settle for the 2.5mm blocks and move the rear eyebolts as far back on the carriages as I can, as in the second photo above. This reflects the diagram in Mondfeld (of which I had already found a copy on the web) for the French style of tackle.

 Now I'm away for a week and will mull it all over before ordering the blocks.

 

[John Clements]

Rather a long break but today I put a thread through a block for the first time since my last post here over three months ago. Now a bit of a digression, but I hope you'll  see why. I have spent some time over the summer reflecting on my frustrations at the painfully slow progress of this project, which led to a severe pruning of other modelling projects, and some re-assessment of priorities. I've given up my ambition of modelling the modern French navy in 1/400 scale; it just takes up too much room, and I've thinned out my collection. The last couple of months I've been working on a newly released 1/700 kit of an modern RN ship which was all resin, PE and 3d printed parts. The detail is truly amazing but so many of the parts were simply too small and delicate for me to handle, and have ended up broken or somewhere in the carpet, that I've realised I can't hope to work at that level, if I ever could. I did ponder abandoning the SR too; it is such a big thing and will definitely be my last large-scale kit, and I don't even like it as a ship, but on the other hand I've invested a lot in it, and it suits the way I work (a lot of short spells during the day rather than one long session), so yes, I am hoping to finish it and I've made a re-start tonight on all those gun tackles that I need to do next, and haven't been looking forward to but they need to be done.

[EricWilliamMarshall]

How’s it going?

[John Clements]

Hi and thanks for asking. I have just finished all the main deck gun tackles and added the deck furniture so that I could fix the quarterdeck in place. I have been using Radimir's wooden decking so had to sand the plastic deck down to keep the original thickness, which was a pain but it is now fixed in place. However, somehow the deck is not slightly bowed upwards in the middle as it should be (and to match the railing), in fact quite the reverse, and I think I am going to have to insert a couple of non-prototypical pillars under the forward edge of the deck to push the centre upwards and make it look right. They will be hidden behind the water barrels more or less, so not too obvious. When I've done that, I'll post some pictures.

[John Clements]

Just a progress report really. Nothing exciting to add. Progress has been very slow due to other pressures but I have put the quarterdeck in place and begun fitting it out. Discovered to my chagrin that I seem to have lost a few small pieces somewhere along the line, so some areas might not look quite as expected. The next job is to get all the guns in place and rigged so I can work out the placing of access steps and so on. For me that's a very slow process - 1 gun a day - so may well last until Christmas.

 

 

 

 

Edited December 4, 2021 by John Clements
Wrong photos inserted

[Ian_Grant]

On 3/20/2021 at 1:16 PM, John Clements said:

< snip>... I hope you like the painted main sculpture. I think it works well but it's a pity that Heller couldn't have thought to mould in some reins, which it is obvious Apollo is holding in those outstretched hands and which would accord with Baroque paintings of that scene. After all, they are horses and how else do you control them? I did think of painting them in but in that scale it would be quite difficult painting them on freehand. I did add a bit of shading to bring out the relief.

John,  I have an SR in my stash. I love your colours on the figurehead and stern. Now I'm wondering whether to "go Wasa" on  mine and paint all the stern figures in colour.

 

Regarding reins, I was thinking maybe some copper wire could be used, glued into very small holes drilled in Apollo's hands and horse's mouths.

[John Clements]

Thanks, Ian. I do think painting the sculpture enhances what would otherwise be a rather large monochrome - or perhaps duo-chrome would be more accurate - expanse of red and gold. I'll have a think about those reins. Might work but the scale is still tiny and I'd hate to mess up what I've already done.

 

I'm still plodding along doing all those gun tackles but at least I am on the last four, on the poop deck, having altered the deck and cabin front to fit the second pair of cannon. One thing that's nagging at me right now, which has been mentioned before, is the additional inner railing along the waist walkways. Measuring the height from the other deck railings in the kit gives me a railing twice as high as the outer railings which themselves, when set against the size of an average human at 1/100, are very low and really wouldn't stop anyone falling overboard. I'm wondering how authentic such a low railing would be, or whether this is another made up feature of the Paris model. If the railings were one unbroken line from quarterdeck to foc's'le, they would be at a much more reasonable height.

[EJ_L]

I will echo that painting the sculptures in a variety of color adds a great deal to the model over just the gold. Likely more realistic as well. I have done them both ways now and I love how they pop and become more interesting with colors.

 

On the reigns, you may look at jewelry wire from crafting stores. It comes in a variety of thicknesses and colors where you may be able to find something that does not look oversized. You could also stiffen sewing thread of the color you want with glue if you need to go extremely thin.

 

I have always struggled with the practicality of many railings. Real, practical, functional or simply artistic. I believe that there is truth to much of it. From safety, while there was concern, we can easily overthink it with modern safety practice. With artistic, the artist wanted to convey the appearance rather than function. Dimensions should not be taken as exact, rather suggestive. I think if you find a happy medium that you like you will be okay.

[Ian_Grant]

I hadn't noticed that about the railing yet. You're right, if it extended straight from foc'sle to 1/4deck it would make sense. Maybe I will add another handrail there when /if I get to that stage.

 

The other thing mystifying me is access to the poop and "flying poop" (or whatever they call it).  I can see maybe an internal companionway to the poop deck under the poop deck cabin, but how does one access the flying poop? I could have worded that better, perhaps. 😀

[EJ_L]

I cannot say for certain, but my guess is that there were removable ladders to access this area. It may not have been a regularly used space outside of battle and accessing the lanterns. I don't think I added any on mine to this deck, though I do remember questioning it myself during construction.

[popeye2sea]

I think the omission of ladders to the poop deck are one of the errors in the kit.

 

Also, I would be surprised if there were railings on those gangways. If any,  I would make them from rope supported by stanchions. Safety was not a concern back then. Sailors were considered part of the equipage of the ship. If you lost or broke a part (person), oh well, replace it.

 

Regards,

 

 

[Ian_Grant]

On 1/3/2022 at 5:38 PM, EJ_L said:

I will echo that painting the sculptures in a variety of color adds a great deal to the model over just the gold. Likely more realistic as well. I have done them both ways now and I love how they pop and become more interesting with colors.

<snip..snip>

EJ - do you mean you have built SR twice now, or that you've done gilt or coloured sculptures on various models?

 

I'd love to see some pics of ships with painted ones.....

[John Clements]

Thanks for the comments above.

I will be adding ladders as they appear in the Saint Philippe plans and put them where they don't interfere with the cannon. I don't see why they should be removable. That seems to me just an added complication in construction and storage.

 

Whilst I agree that safety was not seen in the same way as we do today, I would hesitate to say that crew were disposable. They were trained, skilled people who could not just be picked up off the street if you were in the middle of a voyage to the colonies, for example, and you certainly wouldn't want your officers, warrant officers or craftsmen (of whom there were many on these ships) washed over board. Sailing warships of a later date did have full height bulwarks and inner railings, so my hunch would be that the model is incorrect but I will do some more research before deciding what to do about it. At present the bulwark is hardly stomache height and noticeably lower than the equivalent bulwarks on the other decks as you can see in the pictures above in a previous post.

[Hubac's Historian]

The closest contemporary resource I can find is the Louis Quinze model at the Musee de la Marine.  These are the best pictures I have (admittedly not great), but in-board railings are not shown, along the gangways:

 

 

 

It’s another Tanneron model, from the 1830’s, but his more complete (than SR) model of Le Brillant does not show railings either:

 

[Hubac's Historian]

I almost forgot this other contemporary model from the circa 1740s:

 

 

 

 

 

 

No inboard ladders either

 

Interestingly, Le Fleuron shows an outboard stanchion railing that is higher than the waist sheer railing, but nothing in-board, along the gangway.

 

Also, the Dauphin Royal of 1750 does not show any inboard stanchion railings, either.

Edited January 5, 2022 by Hubac's Historian

[popeye2sea]

2 hours ago, John Clements said:

Whilst I agree that safety was not seen in the same way as we do today, I would hesitate to say that crew were disposable. They were trained, skilled people who could not just be picked up off the street if you were in the middle of a voyage to the colonies, for example, 

 

I have to disagree with you on that point.  Most sailors were, quite literally, picked up off the street and trained on board,  True, they became more valuable later in their careers, but they were very much expendable.  A captain would be very lucky indeed to not suffer many casualties to the crew in the course of a cruise.  Sailors and landsmen (untrained crew) were picked up in ports wherever they could be got.

Safety and crew comfort for that matter was not even considered, The only reason a captain tried to limit his personnel losses to illness or death is because at some point the lack of crew would hamper his ability to work and fight the ship. Think about it like you can't operate your car without gas or oil. You don't feel bad if the oil leaks or you run out of gas. It just is a situation you have to deal with in order to keep you car running.

 

Regards,

[baskerbosse]

2 hours ago, popeye2sea said:

 

I have to disagree with you on that point.  Most sailors were, quite literally, picked up off the street and trained on board,  True, they became more valuable later in their careers, but they were very much expendable.  A captain would be very lucky indeed to not suffer many casualties to the crew in the course of a cruise.  Sailors and landsmen (untrained crew) were picked up in ports wherever they could be got.

Safety and crew comfort for that matter was not even considered, The only reason a captain tried to limit his personnel losses to illness or death is because at some point the lack of crew would hamper his ability to work and fight the ship. Think about it like you can't operate your car without gas or oil. You don't feel bad if the oil leaks or you run out of gas. It just is a situation you have to deal with in order to keep you car running.

 

Regards,

Indeed. And against their will too. That's what press gangs did.
Hard times. Don't get drunk in port towns.. 🙂

 

Cheers,

Peter

[John Clements]

I think our different opinions are more a matter of degree than substance, and as this is a modelling site, not a social history blog, let's leave it at that

 

I was beginning to wonder whether the walkways themselves were another imaginary addition, but Marc's contribution (thank you very much!) seems to show that they are genuine. In that case, maybe the flimsy bulwarks were supplemented at sea with netting or something similar which was used in that way years later. Surely in a seaway no-one would have walked across them anyway if they had so little protection.

[EJ_L]

On 1/4/2022 at 10:24 PM, Ian_Grant said:

EJ - do you mean you have built SR twice now, or that you've done gilt or coloured sculptures on various models?

 

I'd love to see some pics of ships with painted ones.....

 

I've done gilt and colored. My S.R. was done in gilt in the more common method of all ornaments painted gold. Many years ago though I painted the decorations on the stern of Constitution in a variety of colors and my current build of Royal Louis has also been done in colors. I intend to do the same with my Royal Caroline, though she will likely have more gilding as she was the King's yacht.

[Bill Morrison]

On 3/2/2021 at 4:37 PM, John Clements said:

Thanks, Michael. I appreciate your comments.

At that size (and price) one really would expect Heller to have done a better job if this was to be their top French sailing navy offering but it does mean we can all use our imagination a bit, and it's really nice to see all the different versions on this site. Putting her afloat is certainly an option but I'm put off by the sheer size of it. We will see.

There is a fix to the waterline issue.  Sand off the molded-on waterline marking that Heller placed too low, and raise the waterline to the lowest wale. This is shown in the many drawings found in the book Vasseaux du Roi Soleil.   The lower hull then appears more reasonable.

 

Bill

Edited April 11, 2022 by Bill Morrison

[Bill Morrison]

On 3/4/2021 at 2:02 AM, Heinrich der Seefahrer said:

 

Yes but I told my son:"A highscore isn't something you print out and put into a glass show cabinet..." 

 

So he started to build tanks and planes. And is very good at his Warhammer miniatures. So we have something to communicate about quite technologically but he feels competent to be at the same level as his dad but on an other playground. I get new ideas from him he from me so it does cooperate.

 

I think getting youth interested in the hobby at all is important. Their physical skills are trained and if the do good they start an new kit and do get better and it is an obvious progress pictured in the result and neurological in their brain - you ca not cheat on our hobby just for money payed to win or some pressed caps. 

 

So if the makes progress his brain developes so he will do his way... 

 

All we can do is being authentic to show our intrest in them by praising their work and showing other shorter easier ways to the same or better result:

 

"Education did never work, 

children allways do imitate us." 

unknown

 

 

 

As a high school History teacher, I put together a Model Club for after school.  I received a lot of interest from the students, so the club was a very popular one until I retired. Most teenagers do appreciate interested adults and will participate in these activities if given the chance.

Bill Morrison

[John Clements]

I can't believe it's been so long since I did a post. First, just to respond to Bill's advice about the waterline. I did exactly that and the waterline is very close to the first wale.

Part of the reason for the long silence has been the tedious process of the gun tackles. With each gun needing eight blocks and hooks as well as putting in place all the eyelets to take the hooks (including those areas where there is little solid structure to place them), it took a long time. I also wanted to work out in my own mind the most appropriate set of railings and access stairs/ladders, having concluded that following Tanneron in everything seemed to be counter to reason and practicality, like how do you actually get from one part of the ship to another in reasonable safety. Another aspect is that some of these non-structural items would be different or differently placed between being in harbour, being in a light seaway, being in heavy swell and being in action. What the modeller is actually trying to convey seems relevent. I've also been looking for some figures to populate it and give an idea of scale.

Anyway, after all that philosophising (so beloved of the French), I cracked on with some of the stem and stern decoration, the changes to the poop area, finished the tackles and can now start on those railings and ladders and also on the channels, masts and standing rigging. Here are some pictures of how it looks now with plenty of tidying up to the paintwork to be done at some stage. And progress will be slow over the summer too.

[Hubac's Historian]

She’s coming along beautifully, John!  Let me know whether you come up with anything for scale figures.

[John Clements]

As I am going to be away from home for a month and not taking SR with me. I thought I would do a brief update. As mentioned before, I've been pondering the lack of access to the upper decks and have decided on a way forward which, for the poop deck, is in the picture below. It solves the problem of the guns being in the way nicely, I think, and is aesthetically pleasing (to me at least). I don't make any claims as to historical accuracy but that's true of a lot of the detail on this ship. I will be adding handrails to the steps. For the uppermost deck, I will have movable ladders stored against the bulwarks by the end doors.

I've also made a start on the masts, making the wooldings and painting them, and am taking my books and plans away with me to try and work out the rigging more clearly so hopefully when I get home I can order what I need for that mammoth task.

And I've decided that I will change the angle of the bowsprit, which I think is do-able even at this stage. Part of that will be to slightly reduce the height of the head rails at their terminus behind the figurehead which looks too high compared with the Berain drawing. Incidentally, the spar itself looks much smaller and frailer compared to that on the Saint Philippe. I wonder if the SR spar is another error.

[yancovitch]

have to say i appreciate this inspired build....gives me a lot to think about, regarding what could be applied to my effort....thanks....so very impressive!

Edited August 1, 2022 by yancovitch