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Identify-name these rigs


Thanasis

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Happy New Year to all.
Could someone identify or at least give a proper name in these rigs...
Many thanks

RIG-1s.jpg.dc62bd966eade15706f66831264a4dc9.jpg

 

RIG-2s.jpg.e43587a920f319ccd41ec3be5226db64.jpg

 

RIG-3s.jpg.5024fa47c850762209fdf2299400e08e.jpg

 

RIG-4s.jpg.ad859bc9bb7192bb37ae6ce52b1c058a.jpg

 

 

Edited by Thanasis
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Good Evening Thanasis;

 

I am far from being an expert on small ships of this type, but I would say that no. 1 is a two-masted schooner, with a large main-topmast staysail; no. 2 is a two-masted topsail schooner (fond memories here: the second model I ever made, forty years ago now, was one of these) The third I am not sure about, although as she appears to be at anchor she is probably drying her sails, in which case it is just possible that the triangular mainsail is not actually triangular. It does appear to be some kind of triangular lug-sail, though. The fourth is also a two-masted schooner.

 

If anyone knows a specific name for these rigs, I would love to hear it as well.

 

All the best,

 

Mark P

Previously built models (long ago, aged 18-25ish) POB construction. 32 gun frigate, scratch-built sailing model, Underhill plans.

2 masted topsail schooner, Underhill plans.

 

Started at around that time, but unfinished: 74 gun ship 'Bellona' NMM plans. POB 

 

On the drawing board: POF model of Royal Caroline 1749, part-planked with interior details. My own plans, based on Admiralty draughts and archival research.

 

Always on the go: Research into Royal Navy sailing warship design, construction and use, from Tudor times to 1790. 

 

Member of NRG, SNR, NRS, SMS

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The problem is that the naming conventions I know, is not realy compatible with these mediterranean ships....

I don't think  1 is qualifying as a schooner, as both sails between the masts are stay-sails, and a two-masted schooned has gaff-sails on both masts.

 

I have a book by Marquardt, he also covers these type of ships. Will have a look tomorrow.

 

Jan

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The first is a staysail schooner with a boomed foresail, flying a fisherman topsail.

 

The second is a brigantine.

 

The third photograph isn't sufficiently clear to determine what we're looking at.  Unlike the other three photos, which are indisputable, this one's identity depends upon what's happening where the odd, long-sparred jib-headed sail meets the mast. Is it attached to the mast with gaff jaws, or is it crossing the mast as would a lateen antenna.  In the case of the former, it might be called gaff schooner with a weirdly long foresail gaff boom, and in the latter instance, a lateen-rigged ketch with a gaff-rigged mizzen. In the case of a lateen rig, it appears that the picture was taken while the foot of the mainsail antenna was being tacked from one side of the mast to the other. If the long boom is connected to the mast, it may have been a rig adaptation, similar to the arrangement seen on the Thames barges, which accommodated local fishing or cargo handling requirements.

 

The fourth is another staysail schooner.

 

The rest of you guys... That was pathetic. Go to your rooms!!!  :D :D :D 

 

Thames barge:

 

 

THAMES BARGE.jpg

Edited by Bob Cleek
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I agree with Bob. His naming is about as good as you can get for these rigs.

 

The second rig is similar to a hermaphrodite brig (also called a brigantine), but doesn't appear to have a full square sail rig on the fore mast as brigs as brigantines are supposed to have. Also, every picture I have seen (and most definitions) of brigantines has had the main mast as tall as or taller than the fore mast.

 

Ketches are two masted vessels with the mizzen (after) mast positioned ahead of the rudder/tiller and shorter than the main (fore) mast, as in the second rig, but the main mast is usually rigged fore and aft with a gaff sail, and no square topsail. Without the topsail on the main mast our second rig might be called a "staysail ketch" but I have never seen that term used. Topsail ketch?

 

The third rig is strange. I'd call it a "mule" as it appears to be a cross between a schooner and a dhow or felucca. Let's hope it too is sterile and cannot reproduce!

 

The sail rig on the Thames barge is called a spritsail.

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Dear all happy New Year and thank you for participating this puzzle.

As most of you I can recognize typical ships' riggings and name the type of sails. I do can see Schooner types with something less or more (topsail-staysail...) but what I'm looking fore is how I could call them in a conversation or in writing. That's why I quest for a "proper name".

For the history these types of vessels-rigging were shown in North Aegean Sea at early of 20th century and I would define their origin mainly as Ottoman.

As about the third photo for which there is much thinking and being a bit familiar, I see an older or "Ottoman" version  of a "penna rigging" (yelkenli çektirme in Turkish) (Bermuda rig).

I call it "Ottoman" version since to my knowledge there was also a newer or "Greek" version (mostly was used by Greeks) where the triangular sail (penna) is attached on the mast, instead of on an additional spar. But here, we might have  a third version…More info information might be retrieved from the sketches of an ANZAC Soldier in Lemnos Island…) 

See photos

MSW-1.jpg.c94afd48077285cc5c17eef863b302f9.jpg

 

MSW-2.jpg.6f74a7b68405b80eaae5ab1cbe410190.jpg

 

So, I know it's difficult to guess what those sailors were thinking, nor to find the original name of the rigs, but I'm trying to give at least a "short" explanatory name.

Thx

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Happy New Year to Everyone!

 

Greetings to Bob especially; speaking from my room 😁, I have to query the truth of the brigantine ID for the second vessel. A brigantine has a fully square-rigged foremast, and the after, or main mast, is taller than the foremast, which this one is not. I agree that there does seem to be a foresail furled tight in the centre of the lower yard, which would make it not a topsail schooner; but only two square sails on a whole mast is rather too few to constitute a full set of square sails, I would say. This could be a cut-down version of a larger rig, forced on the captain by lack of money in the final years of sail, and not quite conforming to any set definition. It almost looks like a cutter-rig with a mizen mast added.

 

All the best,

 

Mark P

Previously built models (long ago, aged 18-25ish) POB construction. 32 gun frigate, scratch-built sailing model, Underhill plans.

2 masted topsail schooner, Underhill plans.

 

Started at around that time, but unfinished: 74 gun ship 'Bellona' NMM plans. POB 

 

On the drawing board: POF model of Royal Caroline 1749, part-planked with interior details. My own plans, based on Admiralty draughts and archival research.

 

Always on the go: Research into Royal Navy sailing warship design, construction and use, from Tudor times to 1790. 

 

Member of NRG, SNR, NRS, SMS

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I checked Marquardt, and he does not name the rigs of ships from regions other than the northern European regions. He labels the shiptypes, not the rigs.

 

I don't know how it is in Turkey, but in the Netherlands, you can sort of classify the shiptypes, but there are many 'in betweens', as ships were always build by a specific builder for a specific buyer. Ie: it was not type x that was agreed upon but a ship 'like the one you build for my neighbor, but I would liketo have it slightly different'. 

 

I do very much like the (for a Dutchman) rather excentric rigs, and sometimes completely different ways of sailhandling that you see in the mediterranean ships.

 

Jan

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Mark,

 

It was not uncommon for topsail schooners to carry a fore course - a square sail suspended from the lower yard. I have seen several examples in books about schooners, such as the French privateer Le Comtesse Emererian 1810, ex privateer Herald or HMS Pictou 1815, HMS Sea Lark and HMS Alban1817, US revenue Cutter Louisiana 1819, and slaver Mary Adeline 1852. Howard Chapelle's "The Baltimore Clipper" has numerous other examples, including drawings from Marestier taken off ships and published in 1824.

 

A fore course doesn't seem to be common on modern topsail schooners, but some photos (below) of the modern French Navy Belle Poule show her flying a square course with a spar to the clew something like a spinnaker or a studding sail! Note that they also have a water sail on the main boom, so they are spreading a lot of canvas to catch the wind. Like about everything else I have seen about schooner rigging it seems to have been up to the owner's/captain's whim.

 

vessel-belle-poule-2.jpg.c254da3adda40cd680d502e4348f1f54.jpg

 

While I agree that brigantines are supposed to have a taller main mast than a fore mast, what else would you call the second example? I'd call it a topsail ketch but I have never heard that name used!

Edited by Dr PR
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I follow Harold Underhill's guidance when it comes to naming rigs.  I therefore agree with Mark P, I don't think #2 is a brigantine either. More like a topsail ketch, a rare rig but certainly one that existed, although it is strange that it has staysails between the masts rather than a gaff foresail on the foremast.

 

To be a brigantine it needs to have a fully square-rigged foremast, which typically includes having a fairly short fore (lower) mast. The mast on #2 is more like the foremast of a topsail schooner (except that as the mainmast is shorter than the foremast it can't be a schooner). It's an unusual rig, for sure.  A bit of a dog's breakfast!

 

Thanasis, nice work on identifying #3. The sketches from the ANZAC soldier nail it, don't they?  I assume this rig must have had a local name, but I'm no expert on naming conventions for Mediterranean rigs so I'll abstain on that one.

 

I agree that #1 and #4 are fore and aft staysail schooners.

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23 hours ago, Dr PR said:

...

The second rig is similar to a hermaphrodite brig (also called a brigantine), but doesn't appear to have a full square sail rig on the fore mast as brigs as brigantines are supposed to have. Also, every picture I have seen (and most definitions) of brigantines has had the main mast as tall as or taller than the fore mast.

...

 

The sail rig on the Thames barge is called a spritsail.

 

To my eye, the mainsail on the brig appears to be tightly furled on the main yard.

 

You are indeed correct that the Thames barge carries a spritsail rig.

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19 hours ago, Thanasis said:

So, I know it's difficult to guess what those sailors were thinking, nor to find the original name of the rigs, but I'm trying to give at least a "short" explanatory name.

 

Interesting information. Obviously a localized type and perhaps now extinct. From the contemporary drawings, the gaff mizzen sail indicated a later evolution. The vessel may indeed be "Ottoman," certainly as the drawings confirm.

 

Until a better term is discovered, in consideration of it's apparent national origin, why don't we call it a "turkey?" :D 

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17 hours ago, Mark P said:

Happy New Year to Everyone!

 

Greetings to Bob especially; speaking from my room 😁, I have to query the truth of the brigantine ID for the second vessel. A brigantine has a fully square-rigged foremast, and the after, or main mast, is taller than the foremast, which this one is not. I agree that there does seem to be a foresail furled tight in the centre of the lower yard, which would make it not a topsail schooner; but only two square sails on a whole mast is rather too few to constitute a full set of square sails, I would say. This could be a cut-down version of a larger rig, forced on the captain by lack of money in the final years of sail, and not quite conforming to any set definition. It almost looks like a cutter-rig with a mizen mast added.

 

All the best,

 

Mark P

 

The number of sails in a "fully-rigged" square-rigged vessel is a function of the size of the vessel. A smaller vessel, as pictured, will carry fewer square sails, the added complexity of a greater number of sails to break the sail plan into manageable segments not being necessary.

 

Photo number two is classified as a brigantine in the US, but is called a "schooner brig," or "hermaphrodite brig" in Europe. The height of the after mast isn't relevant. If a boomed fore and aft sail is carried on a shorter foremast as well as a square topsail, it's a square topsail schooner. 

 

As in the United States, USS Boxer, USN training brigantine. See: Dictionary of American Naval Fighting Shipshttp://www.hazegray.org/danfs/sail/boxer4.htm

 

 

 

iCOiPQN.thumb.jpg.4be124e96a0936c712e3b3f1f6f63419.jpg

 
 
 
094690506.jpg.15e249992cc3b5e4c49fce1b82d0a7c8.jpg
 
And don't come out of that room until I tell ya to!  :D
 
 
 
Edited by Bob Cleek
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1 hour ago, Dr PR said:

Note that they also have a water sail on the main boom, so they are spreading a lot of canvas to catch the wind.

 

We flew a watersail on a friend's large spidsgatter years ago. I thought it wasn't going to add much, given its percentage of the overall sail area, but it really did make quite a difference in light air downwind. They're rarely seen these days,.

Edited by Bob Cleek
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59 minutes ago, Tony Hunt said:

I follow Harold Underhill's guidance when it comes to naming rigs.  I therefore agree with Mark P, I don't think #2 is a brigantine either. More like a topsail ketch, a rare rig but certainly one that existed, although it is strange that it has staysails between the masts rather than a gaff foresail on the foremast.

 

To be a brigantine it needs to have a fully square-rigged foremast, which typically includes having a fairly short fore (lower) mast. The mast on #2 is more like the foremast of a topsail schooner (except that as the mainmast is shorter than the foremast it can't be a schooner). It's an unusual rig, for sure.  A bit of a dog's breakfast!

 

Harold Underhill was British, so we have to keep that in mind. He uses European nomenclature. There's no such thing as a "topsail ketch." It is, or once was, common to see a cruising ketch flying a square sail or two downwind in the trades, often from a yard sent aloft for the occasion rather than permanently rigged to the mast. This arrangement frequently would include a single boom with a rafee (triangular) topsail and a square course. Vessels employing that rig were still ketches. What is distinctive is indeed the absence of a gaff-rigged sail on the foremast. If there isn't a boomed sail on the foremast, it's a brigantine or "hermaphrodite brig." Not a ketch. A ketch must have two fore and aft boomed sails. The staysails instead of the boomed sail are what make it a brigantine (or an hermaphrodite brig in European nomenclature."

 

"Fully-square rigged" is really a meaningless lubbers' term, like "tall ship." (Which is actually a marketing term invented by the advertising agency for the Sail Training Association.) There's no such thing as a "partial square rig." If a vessel carries square sails, those sails are "square-rigged." Simple as that. It isn't the presence of a certain number of square sails, but rather the absence of boomed fore an aft sails that determines the difference between a brigantine and a square topsail schooner.

 

Having a "fairly short fore (lower) mast" doesn't enter into it. Look at the pictures I posted of USS Boxer. She was classified by the United States Navy as a brigantine and I'm betting they knew what the proper names for the rigs on their ships were, no? :D 

 

At least, that's my story and I'm sticking to it! :D 

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57 minutes ago, Bob Cleek said:

 

Harold Underhill was British, so we have to keep that in mind. He uses European nomenclature. There's no such thing as a "topsail ketch." It is, or once was, common to see a cruising ketch flying a square sail or two downwind in the trades, often from a yard sent aloft for the occasion rather than permanently rigged to the mast. This arrangement frequently would include a single boom with a rafee (triangular) topsail and a square course. Vessels employing that rig were still ketches. What is distinctive is indeed the absence of a gaff-rigged sail on the foremast. If there isn't a boomed sail on the foremast, it's a brigantine or "hermaphrodite brig." Not a ketch. A ketch must have two fore and aft boomed sails. The staysails instead of the boomed sail are what make it a brigantine (or an hermaphrodite brig in European nomenclature."

 

"Fully-square rigged" is really a meaningless lubbers' term, like "tall ship." (Which is actually a marketing term invented by the advertising agency for the Sail Training Association.) There's no such thing as a "partial square rig." If a vessel carries square sails, those sails are "square-rigged." Simple as that. It isn't the presence of a certain number of square sails, but rather the absence of boomed fore an aft sails that determines the difference between a brigantine and a square topsail schooner.

 

Having a "fairly short fore (lower) mast" doesn't enter into it. Look at the pictures I posted of USS Boxer. She was classified by the United States Navy as a brigantine and I'm betting they knew what the proper names for the rigs on their ships were, no? :D 

 

At least, that's my story and I'm sticking to it! :D 

 

A lubber?

 

Good day to you, sir.  

Edited by Tony Hunt
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Good Afternoon Gentlemen;

 

'Fully square-rigged', whilst it may, or may not, have ever found a place in the seaman's lexicon, is what I would regard as a simple way of categorising a mast as carrying only square yards, at all levels, with near-rectangular sails routinely set on all of them. An example would be the main and fore masts of any 18th century three-masted warship. No gaffs or booms. This then makes a clear differentiation between these and the mizen mast, which was partially square-rigged. It goes by default that if one can legitimately speak of a 'partially square-rigged' mast, the term 'fully square-rigged' must also exist. These are both descriptive phrases which I have seen many times, in a variety of books on nautical subjects.

 

Whether or not these are terms which point out the user's land-based origins and experience is not really relevant; what matters is that the reader can clearly understand the writer's/speaker's meaning and intent. Any other way of describing these types of mast will either be less clear, or longer, and I am not aware of any in current or former usage.

 

Experience and knowledge of relatively modern practice, whilst invaluable and of the first order, is not the only guidance which can be applied here. I would imagine that, especially nowadays, most modellers are not sailors, nor have they been. For a sailor to make derogatory comments about non-sailors, however well-merited, on a forum which is not devoted to sailors, is conduct unbecoming, I would say. 

 

All the best,

 

Mark P

 

 

Previously built models (long ago, aged 18-25ish) POB construction. 32 gun frigate, scratch-built sailing model, Underhill plans.

2 masted topsail schooner, Underhill plans.

 

Started at around that time, but unfinished: 74 gun ship 'Bellona' NMM plans. POB 

 

On the drawing board: POF model of Royal Caroline 1749, part-planked with interior details. My own plans, based on Admiralty draughts and archival research.

 

Always on the go: Research into Royal Navy sailing warship design, construction and use, from Tudor times to 1790. 

 

Member of NRG, SNR, NRS, SMS

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Again I have to agree with Bob Cleek about that "topsail staysail ketch/hermaphrodite brig/brigantine" or whatever you want to call it ((the second picture in Thananasis' original post).

 

I did find a reference to a "topsail ketch" in the Unusual Rigs chapter of Harold Underhill's Masting and Rigging the Clipper Ship & Ocean Carrier, Brown Son and Ferguson, Ltd., Glasgow, 1972, page 229. Yes, Underhill was British, and we all know they actually think they invented the English language, but I have to be cautious what I say here because my wife was British. Yes dear, who is to say that the British terminology is less valid than any other?

 

He mentions a "schooner-ketch" and says "Another name, and I think a more appropriate one, is topsail ketch." But, as Bob mentions, a ketch would have a gaff sail on the main (fore) mast. Underhill says "The [main] gaff and boom are proportionately longer than would be the case with the schooner because the mizzen mast is stepped much further aft." Picture 2 doesn't have a boom on the fore mast, so it isn't a true ketch. So maybe it was a ketch-brigantine? But whoever heard that term used?

 

However, some sources just say a two masted vessel with the fore/main mast taller than the aft/mizzen is a ketch it the mizzen is stepped forward of the rudder. By that definition is is a ketch.

 

On page 228 Underhill also discusses the staysail schooner with a topsail on the fore mast and asks "Is she a schooner or brigantine? Your guess is as good as mine, for to the best of my knowledge the rig has never been defined and really has no name." ... "Perhaps the best description would be "square-rigged staysail-schooner", anyway the reader can take his choice." He goes on for another half page discussing variants of this rig and what they might be called.

 

And Bob gets a star for identifying the "fisherman's topsail."

 

Underhill has 17 pages of "unusual rigs" and it all reinforces my belief that just about anything that was possible to rig has probably floated somewhere at some time. And even common rigs have different names in different places and different times.

 

****

 

In Underhills Sailing Ship Rigs and Rigging, Brown, Son and Ferguson, Glasgow, 1969, page 4 he uses the term "Jackass-Rig" as any unusual combination of masts or sails. So in Thanasis' original post there are pictures of jackass-rig 1, jackass-rig 2, jackass-rig 3 and another jackass-rig 1.

 

But he does mention the "hermaphrodite brig" with square rigged fore mast (no gaff sail) and fore-and-aft rigged main mast. The illustration shows staysails between the masts. He says the term hermaphrodite brig is no longer used and it is called a brigantine. He shows sail plans for hermaphrodite brigs Raven and Juan De La Vega on page 46 and 48.

 

He also describes staysail schooners as "... all canvas, with the exception of the main, is set on fore-and-aft stays and saves the weight of spars aloft." The main sail is rigged to a boom, but may be gaff rigged or just a triangular "Bermuda rig." He shows a plan for the very unusual three masted staysail schooner John Williams V."

Edited by Dr PR
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7 hours ago, Mark P said:

I would imagine that, especially nowadays, most modellers are not sailors, nor have they been. For a sailor to make derogatory comments about non-sailors, however well-merited, on a forum which is not devoted to sailors, is conduct unbecoming, I would say. 

 

There are probably a whole lot more ship model builders with significant seamanship experience and skill than you'd imagine, and among those who have moved beyond kit building to "The Dark Side," the percentage is almost certainly greater still. 

 

It would appear this forum is devoted to the hobby of building ship models.  If one aspires to succeed in that endeavor, it would seem they'd be at a disadvantage if they didn't intimately know what it was they were modeling, but I suppose that's a story for another night, children. Be he a seaman or a landsman, a man without a sense of humor is a lamentable thing to behold. Pray tell, for those who may feel some sensitivity to the feelings of the thin-skinned, what's the "poltically correct" term for a "lubbers' hole?"

 

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It's a poor form of discussion when the first resort is to denigrate anyone who disagrees with you. Poorer still to double down on that. And just for the record, I've done many thousands of miles at sea, under sail. 😀 

 

Anyway, jackasses aside 😁, back to rig #2.  On further reflection, it rather resembles a Galiot (per the model below), although the hull looks much more Mediterranean than North Sea, and I think the Galiot was very much a rig of the North Sea and the Baltic.  I am sure that all these rigs had local names, it would be interesting to know if there was a formal nomenclature for them.

 

Sailing ship model German galiot HOFFNUNG of 1897

 

The USN Boxer is most undoubtedly a brigantine, no debate there.  It has a fully square-rigged foremast, not a schooners foremast with a couple of square topsails.  The lower mast is short - barely half the height of the lower mainmast, so it sets a forecourse, much wider than it is deep, rather than a square foresail, much deeper than it is wide.  This is topped by a single topsail, a single topgallant and a royal.   In all of that it bears very little resemblance to the rig in #2.

 

Ketches commonly carried square sails on the foremast in older times.  There are a number of well-known model subjects of such vessels - Speedwell, Granado etc. It's only in more recent times that the ketch rig became a purely fore-and-aft rig.

 

As DrPR notes, there are many variations on all of these rigs, some of which defy the most fervent taxonomist.  

 

 

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Gentlemen; just a couple of points:

 

1. Please keep the discussion on a rational and polite basis at all times.  If it degenerates into arguments and name calling it may have to be closed down.

 

2.  Please also remember that although many of these vessels resemble staysail schooners, they are, in fact, specialised Mediterranean fishing and trading rigs and will have their own special local names, which no one has investigated as yet.

 

Have fun trying to figure them out! ;)

 

John

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4 hours ago, Tony Hunt said:

On further reflection, it rather resembles a Galiot (per the model below), although the hull looks much more Mediterranean than North Sea, and I think the Galiot was very much a rig of the North Sea and the Baltic. 

 

Indeed the rigged galiot, sometimes-spelled "galiote," model does at first glance appear to carry the same rig as photo #2, but, critically, I believe, photo #2 does not carry a boomed fore and aft sail on the forward mast.  It's "Mediterranean-appearing" hull is no contraindication because, according to one sometimes accurate source, the term "galiot" was used to describe a variety of hull and use-distinguised types of vessel in the 16th through 19th centuries, most notably a "half-galley" with two masts, often lateen-rigged and also propelled with oars in the Mediterranean area in the 16th through 17th centuries, as well as a type of Dutch and German vessel similar to a ketch with rounded ends like a fluyt (as appears to the be case in the picture posted above) in the North Sea in the 17th through 19th centuries, a type of French naval vessel in the 17th through 19th centuries which was distinguished by carrying lateen-rigged sails and a bank of oars as did the earlier "half-galley" galiot, although in some instances with but one mast, a type of horse-drawn canal barge called a "galiote" in France from the mid-17th century through the 19th century, or a localized French flat-bottomed river barge with some sort of simple sail rig used to transport wine in the Anjou region during the same period.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galiot

 

In other words, it does not appear that the term "galiot" was ever used to specifically describe a rig, but rather was used to describe a variety of vessel, rather than rig, types.

 

The term "galiot" or "galiote" seems to have been more descriptive of the purpose of the vessel than its rig. Indeed, it seems to have been used to designate lateen-rigged oared galleys as much as anything else. The rigs of the various vessels called "galiots" or "galiotes" seem to be of wide variety, as do both the shapes of their hulls and the uses to which they were put.

 

Dutch galiot of 1740:

 

gIMG_2095.jpg

 

https://www.modelships.de/Dutch_Galiot/Dutch_Galiot.htm

 

Contemporary painting: "A Spanish xebec (center) attacked by two Algerian galiotes" (1738)

 

1280px-DonAntonioBarcel%C3%B3ConSuJabequeCorreoRindeADosGaleotasArgelinas.jpg

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galiot#/media/File:DonAntonioBarcelóConSuJabequeCorreoRindeADosGaleotasArgelinas.jpg

 

"A Dutch galiot from Willaumez's Dictionnaire de la Marine in the 17th century."

 

Galiote.jpg

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galiot#/media/File:Galiote.jpg

 

"A galiote, or scute, transporting wine on a French river during the 18th century."

 

800px-Scute_transportant_du_vin_sur_la_Loire_XVIIIe_s.jpg

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galiot#/media/File:Scute_transportant_du_vin_sur_la_Loire_XVIIIe_s.jpg

 

The "A Dutch galiot from Willaumez's Dictionnaire de la Marine in the 17th century." and the German-flagged model vessel pictured in the preceeding post carry the same rig, but perhaps on hulls of varying degrees of refinement, although that's hard to ascertain certainly from the pictures. That said, the vessel #2 in the originally post, distinctively unlike these two, does not carry a boomed fore and aft sail on its forward mast. For this reason, and especially as well as because the term "Galiot" does not appear to have been in use for similar vessels (i.e. other than canal barges) beyond the mid-1700's, while rig #2 is a photograph of a vessel necessarily taken almost certainly over a hundred years later, at least, I'm sticking with the label, "brigantine."

 

In any event, the term "jackass rig" is certainly often appropriate where rig deviations from generally common arrangements occur. For many years, I owned a J. Laurent Giles Vertue sailboat which somewhat uniquely was rigged with a masthead stay from which could be flown a masthead jib as well as a two-thirds staysail, both tacked at the stemhead.

 

VERTUE drawing

 

While the designer called it a "sloop," others called it a "cutter," and still others called the unusual rig a "slutter." Go figure!  

Edited by Bob Cleek
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For sure, galiot is a term that was applied to many ship types, not an uncommon thing.  However, I'm not convinced that the term jackass-rig is really applicable - as John notes, these are Mediterranean rigs and therefore may well have their own, quite specific names.

 

Re #2, unfortunately the foresail is masking the transition from lower mast to topmast. In the photo it looks like they don't quite align implying the topmast is fidded, but that may just be an optical illusion.  My point being, that if it is a pole mast then perhaps this is an example of the rig referred to in the Med as a polacre (or polacca) - a bit like the lovely model of Bombarda Sabatiera by Thanasis?  Intriguingly, it looks like there is another example in the left background of picture #3, which to be fair looks more brigantine-like to me. At the very least it appears to have a topgallant!

Edited by Tony Hunt
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1 hour ago, Tony Hunt said:

For sure, galiot is a term that was applied to many ship types, not an uncommon thing.  However, I'm not convinced that the term jackass-rig is really applicable - as John notes, these are Mediterranean rigs and therefore may well have their own, quite specific names.

 

Re #2, unfortunately the foresail is masking the transition from lower mast to topmast. In the photo it looks like they don't quite align implying the topmast is fidded, but that may just be an optical illusion.  My point being, that if it is a pole mast then perhaps this is an example of the rig referred to in the Med as a polacre (or polacca) - a bit like the lovely model of Bombarda Sabatiera by Thanasis?  Intriguingly, it looks like there is another example in the left background of picture #3, which to be fair looks more brigantine-like to me. At the very least it appears to have a topgallant!

 

I've never known the presence of a fidded mast to distinguish a type of rig. "To fid or not to fid" depends simply upon the length of the mast and the length of the available tree the mast is made of, so to speak. 

 

Polacre, or polacca, roughly translated means "Pollock" or "from Poland." (I have no idea if that was a term suggesting that they were indeed from Poland or a 17th century ethnic slur. Goodness knows, I don't want to offend any Poles or persons of Polish descent or be accused of posting "Polish jokes.") They were generally three-masted vessels carrying lateen sails on their foremast and mizzenmast, similar to a xebec, and square sails on their mainmasts, though not always. Some carried two masts and some carried no lateen sails at all. Suffice it to say, it would be really stretching it to call a vessel as pictured in photo #2 a polacre or polacca.

 

Torna alla visualizzazione a schermo intero

https://www.cherini.eu/etnografia/NBM/slides/orig_Polacca.html

 

 

Truth be told, the closest I've been able to come to any identification of the vessel depicted in #2 is actually an 18th to 19th century Royal Navy bomb ketch, except that the bomb ketch is generally a larger vessel than #2 appears to be, a bomb ketch's mainmast would be stepped farther aft, halfway between the stem and stern, and the general derelict appearance (note the sails) of #2 sure doesn't suggest she's in active naval service. She could have been "sold out," but it's hard to see that there'd be much civilian use to be gotten out of bomb ketch. 

 

Bombarda.jpg

https://www.cherini.eu/etnografia/NBP/slides/orig_Bombarda.html

 

I'll recommend Aldo Cherini's website of Mediterranean vessel ethnography from which the above drawings came... if you want to risk getting detoured for several hours in an incredible "dump" of Italian nautical trivia!   https://www.cherini.eu/ and  https://www.cherini.eu/etnografia/NBM/ and https://www.cherini.eu/etnografia/BEU/index.html

 

 

 

Edited by Bob Cleek
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Well, I'll again refer to Underhill. Pages 70-72 of Deepwater Sail describes a Mediterranean rig he refers to as a Polacca brigantine, a distinguishing feature of which was that it the square rig was carried on a pole mast (hence the name) with no tops or cross trees.  There is a model of one in the Royal (National) Maritime Museum at Greenwich, see below, interesting that it is a British-registered vessel. 

 
  SLR 0662   Scale: 1:48? A modern exhibition style waterline model of the merchant brig ‘Peter & Sarah’ (circa 1809) built plank on frame and fully rigged with sails set. This model is complete with scale figures and represents a typical merchant trading brig of the early nineteenth century of about 47 tons gross. The rig is known as a ‘polacca’ where the foremast is a single ‘pole’ spar as opposed the traditional two part upper and lower sectioned type, and the fore course is rigged to a boom rather than loose footed. The ‘Peter & Sarah’ was registered at Bideford, Devon and traded in general cargo around most of the major ports in the British Isles, including pilchards from Newquay to the Mediterranean.

 

Doesn't look like a stretch to me. 😀

 

Peter and Sarah (fl.1809); Cargo vessel; Brig; Polacca brig - National  Maritime Museum

 

The resemblance to Thanasis's lovely model of a "Polacra" is striking, too.

 

 

Aldo Cherini's website looks wonderful, thanks for the link. Hours of detour coming up!

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3 hours ago, Tony Hunt said:

Well, I'll again refer to Underhill. Pages 70-72 of Deepwater Sail describes a Mediterranean rig he refers to as a Polacca brigantine, a distinguishing feature of which was that it the square rig was carried on a pole mast (hence the name) with no tops or cross trees.  There is a model of one in the Royal (National) Maritime Museum at Greenwich, see below, interesting that it is a British-registered vessel. 

This is fascinating. I'm learning something here. I think.

 

Okay. I'm with you now. Sort of. To be fair, Underhill is describing a type of brigantine rig, called a polancca brigantine. I may be misunderstanding your comment, "hence the name," but I'll point out that the word "polacca" is Italian and means "Polish." It refers to "a Pole," i.e. being Polish, rather than to a "pole" as in a mast on a ship or a pole from which a flag flies. The adjective "polacca" referring to sail rigs originally referred to the sail rigs favored by the notorious Dutch-born Barbary pirate leader, Jan Janszoon van Haarlem, AKA Reis Mourad the Younger (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_Janszoon) whose ships carried combinations of lateen-rigged and a gaff-rigged sail on their masts. Holland was then part of the Habsburg Empire and Janzoon obtained a Letter of Marque from his native government. Thus, he flew Habsburg colors when attacking Habsburg enemies, but ran up Barbary States colors and preyed equally on Habsburg allies when the opportunity presented itself.  As a Dutchman by birth, he was captured by Ottomans, converted to Islam, and returned to his pirate trade as a Muslim.  The Habsburg Monarchy and the Poles were allied against the Ottoman Empire in the long-running Ottoman-Habsburg Wars, which may explain why Janzoon, known by a variety of aliases, including "John Barber," might have been given the nickname, "The Pole," although I can't say for sure that he was, but in any event, the distinctive lateen and gaff-rigged sail plans that struck terror in the hearts of European mariners came to be called "The Pole's sails," "Polish sails," or, in Italian, simply "Polacca" and Janzoon was well-known for his extensive use of what mariners came to call the pollaca sail plan. This was the origin of the adjective "polacca," referring to a sail plan employing both a lateen and a gaff sail on the same ship, as in "polacca brigantine" or "polancca" followed by whatever other type of rig it might be.  (See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polacca

 

Underhill's discussion of the type correctly notes there were innumerable "polacca" or "Polish" rigs combinations throughout the Mediterranean. What he seems to focus on, writing immediately following the Second World War as the type was waning, was the characteristic that the type carries yards which may "be raised and lowered like Venetian blinds," i.e. in which none of the yards are permanently attached to the mast. In such an arrangement, a fidded mast would certainly not be helpful.  So, yes, the polancca is characterized by an unfidded mast, but the term isn't referring to a "pole" (lower case "p.")  Obviously, a lateen sail's yard (or "antenna" in the original Latin and Italian) also requires a single "pole" mast because it is lowered "like a Venetian blind" and that's where the term originated. Essentially, a "polacca" rigged square sail is one attached to a yard which is hung on a mast in the same fashion as a lateen sail's yard is hung on its mast and may be lowered "like a Venetian blind." And there you have it. 

 

From my reading of pages 70-72 of Underhill's Deepwater Sail, I must say he does provide a much better explanation of the mechanical meaning of "polacca" than I've seen elsewhere, but it needs be noted that he uses the term "polacca" in distinguishing it as a method of rigging yards, be they square yards or antennae and uses it as an adjective, just as the same word in English, "Polish," is an adjective, to describe, what in the instance he cites, is, was, and always will be a brigantine, as in the phrase he uses: "polacca brigantine." 

 

Note also that the NMM's description of the "polacca" pictured above repeatedly refers to that model in the British usage as a "brig" and reverts to referring to it in "shorthand' as a "polacca" instead of "polacca brig." The model is not, in American English nomenclature, at least, a "brig," because in American usage a brig is defined by having square sails on both its fore and main masts. A brigantine carries only square-sails on its foremast (no boomed fore and after sails on the foremast,) and a gaff-rigged mainsail on it's mainmast. (Square sails may also be carried on a brigantine's mainmast, most commonly when encountered it's a single topsail, but that is not are not definitive of the brigantine rig in American English.)   

 

With a nod to your citation to Underhill, I'll amend my answer to say #2 appears to be a polacca brigantine in American English nomenclature and, apparently, a polacca brig in British English usage. :D 

 

 

1024px-Sail_plan_xebec.svg.png

 

 

"Sail plan for a Polacca, first built by the Barbary pirates around the 16th century, many scholars believe the Polacca was extensively used by Jan Janszoon."  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_Janszoon#/media/File:Sail_plan_xebec.svg

Edited by Bob Cleek
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Yes, I think we're making progress here.  I suspect that, just like the "Galiot", the term polacca (in it's various spellings) was applied to some quite different rigs.  The ships of Murat Reis the younger may have been the origin of the name but he sailed a long time ago (1570-1641) so that usage has about a much currency as the Galiots! I think the term was applied much more widely over the following centuries.

 

It's worth noting that David R MacGregor also provides a detailed review of the rig (he refers to it as a Poleacre) in pages 130-134 of Merchant Sailing Ships 1815-1850. In the early decades of the 19th century this rig was familiar (if not common) in England, presumably as a result of prizes being bought into the British mercantile fleet during the Napleonic wars.  The piece includes a photo of "Peter and Sarah" taken at Padstow in the 1850s, that appears to be the basis of the model pictured above.  It's clear from what he writes that poleacres, or polaccas, came as both brigs and brigantines, and these terms were for a time used somewhat interchangeably, at least in the official shipping records.

 

Apparently the original research on these ships in English waters was done by Vernon Boyle and published in Vol 18 of the Mariners Mirror under the wonderful title "The Bideford Polackers".  So another spelling appears! 

Edited by Tony Hunt
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