Cannon bolts outbord on french and english 74 gun ships

[pmpmpm]

Hello together,

 

I have a question concerning a detail of outboard cannon bolts. On many models of french 74-gun ships  there are the bolts available - see picture 001.

But I can't see  this detail on the models of the english 74-gun ships - see picture 002 (Bellona).

The only model where you can see the bolts outboard is the model of HMS Cumberland, scale 1:36 from Alexander Baranov - see picture 003.

 

Are these outboard bolts only on french ships available?

 

Thanks a lot for your help

 

Pavel 

[druxey]

Not every ship model shows every detail! Another instance is that scuppers are seldom shown either. They would, of course be present in the actual ship. Remember that many models are stylized to a greater or lesser extent.

[bruce d]

1 hour ago, druxey said:

Not every ship model shows every detail! Another instance is that scuppers are seldom shown either. They would, of course be present in the actual ship. Remember that many models are stylized to a greater or lesser extent.

 

So the bolts should be there on all ships that had guns on carriages?

[Morgan]

21 minutes ago, bruce d said:

 

So the bolts should be there on all ships that had guns on carriages?

Only in respect of British ships they are not to be seen on any of the present historic ships, neither are they evident on 19th Century photos or contemporary paintings. They must have been rebated in to the external planking and plugged or set in to the frames, after all exposed metalwork corrodes and the last thing you need to break are the retaining bolts (although they sometimes did).

 

Gary

Edited January 28, 2021 by Morgan

[bruce d]

10 minutes ago, Morgan said:

They must have been rebated in to the external planking and plugged or set in to the frames

Hello Gary, thanks. I had a couple of questions in the back of my mind when I wrote the question. Number one was : planking gets replaced, is that why we don't see evidence of this practice?

Now that I am looking closer, it makes no sense that the recoiling cannons would be anchored to anything just screwed into the wood. It needed a through-fixing of some sort.

[Morgan]

I agree, it needs to be an eyebolt affair with whatever capping nut is being used prevented from pulling through the wood by means of an outsize washer of some form, so I agree with the configuration of the bolts shown by Pavel at the start of this thread, but just not surface mounted.  
 

I think this is merely stylisation as Druxy mentions.

 

Gary

[Gregory]

Bolts are seen here on the USS Constitution.

 

[Morgan]

Falconer notes that the eyebolts were fixed by way of a ‘clench’ which seems a bit like a rove used to fix nails on clinker built ship.

 

Gregory - The problem with the Constitution is if you look inboard at the breaching rope fixings is that they are not eyebolts, but a more modern double bolt affair and you do see these fixed outboard, but if you look at the in haul / training tackle fixings these are traditional eyebolts and as the photo shows these do not show outboard, these are fitted mid port so should appear to the side of the gunport outboard.

 

Open to other info that adds to the discussion.

 

Gary

Edited January 28, 2021 by Morgan

[bruce d]

I think the good work of naval archaeologists might hold some answers. It occurs to me that these fixings would not be required in most cases on original drawings, possibly being one of the last jobs.

 

By the way, Welcome to MSW Pavel, you are off to a good start!

[dafi]

I always understood that those eyebolts on the outside were a french/continental preference. The english preferred just spikes on the inside for as far as I recall for impermeability and anti-rotting reasons. I remember once reading about a vicious comment about the all those frensh "iron ships".

 

XXXDAn

[Gregory]

In the absence of a nut type fixture outboard, how were they fixed inboard?  Were they threaded and screwed into the bulkhead?

 

I would imagine there would be a lot of stress from the outhauls and the breaching ..

Edited January 28, 2021 by Gregory

[bruce d]

Visited the bookshelf and found 'The Arming and Fitting of English Ships of War 1600-1815' by Brian Lavery. He doesn't specify the inner and outer fixings in the text, just describing the gun tackle and eyebolt arrangement that is common knowledge.

However, the two illustrations accompanying this passage show the through bolts and the outer fitting. The earlier has a clench proud of the surface, the later example is flush. It is worth noting that the earlier carronade has several through fittings. 

 

 

 

 

His photographs of the gun ports on Victory do not reveal any sign of the outer clench of the bolts we are discussing but that ship is probably not the best example.

 

Bruce

Edited January 28, 2021 by bruce d

[pmpmpm]

5 hours ago, bruce d said:

I think the good work of naval archaeologists might hold some answers. It occurs to me that these fixings would not be required in most cases on original drawings, possibly being one of the last jobs.

 

By the way, Welcome to MSW Pavel, you are off to a good start!

 

Thank you a lot for your welcome greetings Bruce and sorry for my English. 😉

 

I am since years a member of this forum. I found here so much informations from the best craftmans of the world 😉 for the build of my 74-gun ship.

I will create a scratch build log, when I finished the second planking of the hull.

On the foto you can see the first planking (mainwale is already finished).

The scale is 1:49,4.
 

But now - back to the topic. 🙂

 

 

 

[BANYAN]

Very nicely constructed hull Pavel, look forward to your log.  Another warm welcome.

 

cheers

 

Pat

[druxey]

Through bolts had a slot on the outer end that a forelock - a wedge-shaped piece of iron sheet - was pushed through and bent into an 'S 'to retain it. There was a washer under the forelock to prevent wood from being crushed. As many items as possible on a ship had to be easily replaced in the event. All it needed was a hammer.

[pmpmpm]

4 hours ago, druxey said:

Through bolts had a slot on the outer end that a forelock - a wedge-shaped piece of iron sheet - was pushed through and bent into an 'S 'to retain it. There was a washer under the forelock to prevent wood from being crushed. As many items as possible on a ship had to be easily replaced in the event. All it needed was a hammer.

 

You would also agree with picture 003 of HMS Cumberland ?

[garyshipwright]

Hi pm. I do believe that the showing of the eyebolts on the outside were a french/continental preference. But am also not sure that this was that, a preference. When you go through the photo's of the models in  the Musee de la Marine collection, Historic Ship models you will see that most  of them do not have the through bolts on the outside just like the English models in the NMM.  Doesn't mean they didn't do it but each country did things a little different in their ship building. In one of the contract that I have, and was written in 1782 for a 74 gun ship, which I believe  was also used for the Bellerophon, has information on how the eyebolts were installed for the gun ports.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 To have four Ring, and two Eye bolts to each gun port with bolts of 1 3/8 inches diameter two of the ring bolts to be place in the second timber from the port, the rings 5 inches diameter in the clear, the eye sufficiently open for the tackle hooks. To have sufficient number of ring bolts on the deck for the guns, with bolts of  1 1/8 inches diameter and for the stoppers with bolts of 1 5/8 inches diameter the diameter of the rings of the stopper bolts 6 1/2 inches in the clear with short snug eyes, let well down into the deck and the ends of the bolts to be clenched.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    To have two eye bolts over each port for lashing the guns of 1 1/4 and to be placed as high as possible , to give the better room for securing the muzzle of the gun on the clamp, the eyes to be 2 5/8 inches in the clear, the ring and eye bolts to be well forelocked and so well let in, as  only to let the ring have play, the bolts that forelock with out board to have short thick points and fore lock holes that the rings may be let into the wood in belaying them.                                                                                                                                                                   It is  your model and if you want to show the through bolts,  that is total up to you and others. It is a nice detail but I think I will wait  on the next one that I do. This is a little late  but maybe it might help the next person. Gary                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              

Edited April 11, 2022 by garyshipwright