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Cannon bolts outbord on french and english 74 gun ships


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Hello together,

 

I have a question concerning a detail of outboard cannon bolts. On many models of french 74-gun ships  there are the bolts available - see picture 001.

But I can't see  this detail on the models of the english 74-gun ships - see picture 002 (Bellona).

The only model where you can see the bolts outboard is the model of HMS Cumberland, scale 1:36 from Alexander Baranov - see picture 003.

 

Are these outboard bolts only on french ships available?

 

Thanks a lot for your help

 

Pavel 

001.png

002.png

003.png

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1 hour ago, druxey said:

Not every ship model shows every detail! Another instance is that scuppers are seldom shown either. They would, of course be present in the actual ship. Remember that many models are stylized to a greater or lesser extent.

 

So the bolts should be there on all ships that had guns on carriages?

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21 minutes ago, bruce d said:

 

So the bolts should be there on all ships that had guns on carriages?

Only in respect of British ships they are not to be seen on any of the present historic ships, neither are they evident on 19th Century photos or contemporary paintings. They must have been rebated in to the external planking and plugged or set in to the frames, after all exposed metalwork corrodes and the last thing you need to break are the retaining bolts (although they sometimes did).

 

Gary

Edited by Morgan
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10 minutes ago, Morgan said:

They must have been rebated in to the external planking and plugged or set in to the frames

Hello Gary, thanks. I had a couple of questions in the back of my mind when I wrote the question. Number one was : planking gets replaced, is that why we don't see evidence of this practice?

Now that I am looking closer, it makes no sense that the recoiling cannons would be anchored to anything just screwed into the wood. It needed a through-fixing of some sort.

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I agree, it needs to be an eyebolt affair with whatever capping nut is being used prevented from pulling through the wood by means of an outsize washer of some form, so I agree with the configuration of the bolts shown by Pavel at the start of this thread, but just not surface mounted.  
 

I think this is merely stylisation as Druxy mentions.

 

Gary

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Falconer notes that the eyebolts were fixed by way of a ‘clench’ which seems a bit like a rove used to fix nails on clinker built ship.

 

Gregory - The problem with the Constitution is if you look inboard at the breaching rope fixings is that they are not eyebolts, but a more modern double bolt affair and you do see these fixed outboard, but if you look at the in haul / training tackle fixings these are traditional eyebolts and as the photo shows these do not show outboard, these are fitted mid port so should appear to the side of the gunport outboard.

 

Open to other info that adds to the discussion.

 

Gary

Edited by Morgan
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I always understood that those eyebolts on the outside were a french/continental preference. The english preferred just spikes on the inside for as far as I recall for impermeability and anti-rotting reasons. I remember once reading about a vicious comment about the all those frensh "iron ships".

 

XXXDAn

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Visited the bookshelf and found 'The Arming and Fitting of English Ships of War 1600-1815' by Brian Lavery. He doesn't specify the inner and outer fixings in the text, just describing the gun tackle and eyebolt arrangement that is common knowledge.

However, the two illustrations accompanying this passage show the through bolts and the outer fitting. The earlier has a clench proud of the surface, the later example is flush. It is worth noting that the earlier carronade has several through fittings. 

 

 IMG_20210128_0001.jpg.2b465d229711632b7e1d2662840def60.jpg

 

1826747786_IMG_20210128_0001-2.jpg.b88a7e616eaa6e8d1ea0aa98726f640f.jpg

 

His photographs of the gun ports on Victory do not reveal any sign of the outer clench of the bolts we are discussing but that ship is probably not the best example.

 

Bruce

Edited by bruce d
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5 hours ago, bruce d said:

I think the good work of naval archaeologists might hold some answers. It occurs to me that these fixings would not be required in most cases on original drawings, possibly being one of the last jobs.

 

By the way, Welcome to MSW Pavel, you are off to a good start!

 

Thank you a lot for your welcome greetings Bruce and sorry for my English. 😉

 

I am since years a member of this forum. I found here so much informations from the best craftmans of the world 😉 for the build of my 74-gun ship.

I will create a scratch build log, when I finished the second planking of the hull.

On the foto you can see the first planking (mainwale is already finished).

The scale is 1:49,4.
 

But now - back to the topic. 🙂

 

 

 

002.JPG

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Through bolts had a slot on the outer end that a forelock - a wedge-shaped piece of iron sheet - was pushed through and bent into an 'S 'to retain it. There was a washer under the forelock to prevent wood from being crushed. As many items as possible on a ship had to be easily replaced in the event. All it needed was a hammer.

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4 hours ago, druxey said:

Through bolts had a slot on the outer end that a forelock - a wedge-shaped piece of iron sheet - was pushed through and bent into an 'S 'to retain it. There was a washer under the forelock to prevent wood from being crushed. As many items as possible on a ship had to be easily replaced in the event. All it needed was a hammer.

 

You would also agree with picture 003 of HMS Cumberland ?

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