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Saint Philippe 1693 by CRI-CRI - scale 1/72 - French warship from Lemineur monograph


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I am also attracted to Saint-Philippe.  I have developed my own framing method.  It does not use the individual bend patterns that are in the monograph.  I use the outside shape from the Body plan only.  I have lofted S.Philippe for my method.  I have actually plowed this furrow, at least in part, three times.  ( I like the distinctive pattern of the English 17th century Navy Board models. It only uses five timbers per bend. The overlap requires very long timbers with each having much curvature. My scale is 1:60 and an exact replication would require stock that is wider than I wish and too much loss to waste.  I have found another way to get there, but it required at lot of repeat lofting to work out.)  This is a long way of getting to some problems that I have had with the lines plans as presented. 

 

I am going to list those problems - they were written in a recent post but are a bit edited here:

 

 Saint-Philippe is complicated.   The frames and stations are canted forward 1.2 degrees in the Profile Plan.  None of the usual baseline, keel, waterlines,etc. are any help in matching the stations from the profile to the frame outlines (to locate the position of the decks and wales and ports).  It dawned on me that the L.Fon and L.In1 will locate a station profile to its frame outline (sirmarks).   There is one aspect of SP that is diving me to distraction.  On the Profile plan, the station lines are sloped with the frames.  The Body plan seems to match what they would be at 1.2 degrees.  If they are viewed on the plan baseline, they would have to be compressed because the 1.2 degree line is longer ( hypotenuse of a right triangle). But the Body Plan seems to be the actual frame shape, It is the hypotenuse shape and not a foreshortened perpendicular to the keel parallax view.  As a check, I found that the Body plan at M matches the individual bend shape for M in the extracted frames plan.  It is not squished down. In your post #7, observe that the keel is flat to the baseline and the rabbet is horizontal.   So, if the Body plan is perpendicular to the viewer, but is the actual shape, why is the rabbet not sloped down aft?  To get the stations back up to 90 degrees the keel would have to slope 1.2 degrees aft.  The geometry is confusing me.

 

  It would have been more friendly to have drawn the keel with the slope.  However, Lemineur developed the individual bend patterns for the commonly used POF assembly methods and did not think thru just how much more difficult doing it at a 1.2 degree angle is.  It hurts my head to try to see how to use the routine methods to get a new baseline that gets the frames perpendicular, if you choose to mount the keel at an angle., instead of the frames.  The geometry is maddening. 

 

There is another factor that is unique to S.Philippe.  The stations  are not spaced all the same or a derivative of a common factor.  For every other ship that I have investigated, the stations involve some interval of a common frame sided dimension.  Usually, it is the same R&S, with the number of that factor being 4 or 3 or 2 of them per station interval.  The same thickness of framing stock is used for the whole hull.  The intervals for S.Philippe are in 4 different groupings.  They are 12x12.75", 48x15.4", 24x14.9", 43x 13.9" (Imperial inches). (By the way, this is 127 frames or  63 bends.)  It requires four separate thickness of framing stock and constant attention and awareness to where you are.  The tabled mortise joint within a bend is eccentric, but that is not something that I would replicate and is easily ignored.

 

I will be interested in seeing if any of this causes a problem for you and if so, seeing how you solve them.

 

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The keel was copied from the 1/72 source plan, and it's dimensions verified with compass :

 

1401384267_Plan4.jpg.ae1ddda730ed712ec4588e77735564bc.jpg

 

53196489_Plan5.jpg.ad27a238529fd20f01562e3e0e2d95a0.jpg

 

You can see the notches (green  on the screen), placed towards the position line for the frames AR (rear), and forward for noted AV (front)

The keel is subdivided into two parts : the keel itself, and a thinner false keel, placed above it, that receives the down notches, the difference in thickness between high and down parts providing an uniform bulkhead (r√Ęblure in french), without to dig it into wooden mass (this simplified process was successfully used on USS Confederacy, and Ni√Īa, both in closed built)

 

The other functions of this false keel is to support the first gun deck with adapted camber, which will be applied to all other desks of ship

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After verification with Jean-Claude Lemineur, author of Saint-Philippe's monograph, the  ship has a rear inclined keel :

 

 892488386_SaintPhilippeH.jpg.9558c574696f16f6508b0791532bda01.jpg

 

For exact construction, reproduce this angle pf 1.2 ¬į by a¬†1.2 cm part placed under fore keel, and install vertically all frames

 

For a closed hull construction, it's possible to ignore this particularity, because the difference is very small with 1.2 cm for one meter length, but, in such a case, it will be necessary to prepare a new draw of the horizontal keel, the result of general look could be even a little more "elegant"

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If you intend to incline the keel and erect  the frames at 90 degrees, this for POF, and you use an upper brace/  locator to align and support the tops pf the frames, it will help to add a line above the tallest frame as a sirmark/ locator for the frame extensions that is perpendicular to the stations/frames.  That would be at a 1.2 degree angle to the present baseline/keel on the plans.

 

If you are doing this POB (and all indicators point to this as being your intention) - it just means that the central spine has to have the 1.2 degree downward slope aft.

When it comes time to position the depth of the molds on the spine, ..... 

I lofted for POF.  I indicate the location of the decks, port sills, bottom of wales, rails on my frame shapes.  I use the profile to provide these positions.  The only reliable lines that I found  that are on both of the Body plan and the Profile plan at each station that can match them up are L.Fon , L.In1 , ( and I guess, I only needed the two) L.In2 , L.For. 

Where they are at each station is where they are at each station outline.  You will need to get these lines transferred across each mold and make sure they also where they need to be on the central spine if you find them as useful/ necessary as I did.

 

22 minutes ago, CRI-CRI said:

After verification with Jean-Claude Lemineur, author of Saint-Philippe's monograph, the  ship has a rear inclined keel

And you should have bopped him upside his head for not having the keel at an incline on the original lines plans in the first place.

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Next news : I stopped momentously the Saint Philip's shipyard, some defaults of print made several pages as unreadable¬†¬†ūü§Ę

 

The editor must post others soon...

 

French quality...¬† ūüė謆

 

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  • ccoyle changed the title to Saint Philippe 1693 by CRI-CRI - scale 1/72 - French warship from Lemineur monograph
On 3/13/2021 at 4:08 AM, CRI-CRI said:

Beginning of work by the keel, which will be horizontal, with equidistant and vertical frames, to improve the general look

If you included a 1.2 degree drag when the central spine was shaped,the stations will be vertical directly from the plans.

 

With a large solid central spine, a POB fabrication appears to be the method here.  The underlying spine/solid molds structure of POB is so unattractive that it all but demands to be totally hidden.  When it is hidden by planking, the regularity and symmetry of the mold intervals is moot.  Why alter the intervals?

 

Changing the spacing of the station intervals will have a small but significant effect on the hull shape, if the stations in the plans are used as mold patterns.

If you loft new patterns at the new intervals the hull shape will be as designed.

 

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