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aliluke

HMS Fly by aliluke - Amati - 1/64

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Hi Alistair the coppering is not as bad to do once you get started, the styrene bead is a good move I did this on my Pegasus also you can overlap the plates rather than try and cut small pointed wedge shapes, I noted in my log how I fixed the tiles might be worth a look, good luck with it you will be fine .

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Thanks for asking after my Pegasus - actually been doing a lot of bits and pieces - like tying dozens of gun tackles.

 

But I must admit to playing a lot with my1:1 train set getting the stock ready for the season - first passenger runs next week !

 

However the week after that is marked for Peggy progress !

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Thanks all,

Ray I have been looking at your Pegasus log for a lead on coppering - very helpful, thanks.

 

For those who have coppered with the Amati tiles...They come in strips 7 tiles long, do you break them down into individual tiles and overlap them as would be absolutely correct? Or do you leave them as strips and butt joint each length to the end of the previous? And, finally, do you overlap the upper strip to the one immediately below it - again as would be correct - or do you just butt them? I've tried to study the photos here but can't tell the answers to these questions from them.

 

Thanks in advance

Alistair

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Hi Alistair - I just knew there had to be another use to one of those things! My wife runs a business that consumes heavy grade and small diameter packing tubes and I used to curse her for how much room they took up in our house (when the business was located here) - now that they have their own shop, I'll have to raid it for some waterline jigs!

hamilton

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The simplest tool are the best. Looking forward to following your coppering. Have your looked into the various methods? The tape seems readily available, but I noticed that "Bluejacket" sells individual plates for coppering that already have the "details" on them.

 

Ken

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It has been a while...

Finished the copper on the port side. The hardest part was the strap at the waterline. I used 1mm x 0.4mm styrene strip and it would waver off line during fixing so that it drove me crazy. I didn't find coppering easy either - my failure rate was pretty bad. I decided to avoid using stealers and went for overlaps to create the right flow. I'm sure that this is easier on a small hull. Lots of lessons - the starboard side will be better - and more clean ups still to be done.

 

Thanks Ray and RMC for all the coppering stuff you have posted. Your logs were my reference and got me here. I hope it is a good place!

 

Cheers

Alistair

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A very neat job on the coppering Alistar; she's looking  really good.

 

cheers

 

Pat

Edited by BANYAN

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Alistair,

 

great work on the coppering and it Looks as if you even did overlap the tiles, very nice look

 

Nils

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Thanks all for the comments and "Likes".

 

B.E. - yes probably will leave it to naturally cure but I'm interested in how to accelerate the process with salt and vinegar. A bit of scared of that though...Does anyone have a winning formula for the right mix and application process?

 

Ken - They are Amati tiles which come in strips 7 tiles long. Most were laid two tiles at a time, some singles and some in longer strips - it all depended on the curvature needed. In some cases I got this wrong - if the strip is too long the tiles make an awkward angular shift to try to suit the flow and off they'd come.

 

Nils - They are overlapped clinker fashion to eliminate the need for steelers. I paid attention to getting the longitudinal butt joints to gently curve towards the midships - both aft and fore - as per the one drawing in the FFM of coppering. I became slightly obsessed with this feature to the dangerous rejection of too many tiles. I ended up with just 4 spare tiles out of 3 sheets. There are some even now that I'd like to replace but because of the overlap and its effect on the tiles above it, I would have to buy another whole sheet to replace them and the wallet is a bit weary/wary of this indulgence...

 

She is very far from a perfect coppering job - hopefully with what I've learned I'll get the starboard side a bit better. Of course when you display the model most of what irritates me will hardly be visible anyway as we tend to look down on models - with the eyes that is!

 

Cheers

Alistair

 

Cheers

Alistair

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I shied away from trying to artificially age the copper as I was looking to achieve that flat brown even colour as seen on the contemporary Bellona model.

 

After coppering I cleaned it with acetone and very fine wire wool to remove any glue residue, followed by a wipe over with white vinegar. My coppering has now been completed for some 2½ years, it is slowly tarnishing but is yet to achieve the look I'm  after.

 

Cheers,

 

B.E.

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Hey thanks B.E. That is exactly what I've down so far using 0000 steel wool - haven't tried vinegar yet. Dirk did the accelerant on his Syren but it unnerves me. My wife recommends urine as the best accelerant. I have used horse urine to age copper in the past - this is on buildings not models. I'll have to pee on some of the failure strips tomorrow and see what happens. A free product and frequently available but I won't be posting any pictures of the process!!!

 

Cheers

Alistair

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LMAO, are you sure the "Admiral" isn't just fed-up with your current build and is expressing an opinion? :P Also brings to mind "Yellow Admiral" in need of a command but I'm too tired to create something silly out of it.

You're your own worst critic, its looking great to the rest of us.

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I recommend beer as the precursor to your suggested accelerant -- pour the beer down your gullet, then wait.

 

                                                                       :cheers:

 

Cheers,

 

Martin

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Thanks all for your comments.

 

B.E - I had a look at that Bellona model and yes that is exactly the finish colour I'd like too. I may have a solution for you (if you are game enough) as my experiment with urine is actually working! I will post results in the next day or so but the test tiles have already very evenly darkened - after about 2 hours - with a very faint verdigris. I guess the chemical composition of urine is dependent on what you have had to drink so I will try to repeat my intake - coffee and lemon juice this morning - if the experiment is successful! Wacky stuff but I did this years ago for copper on a piece of furniture. The amount required was beyond human capacity so we used a horse's output...

 

I also noted from that stunning Bellona model that the strap at the waterline is a pale colour like yours and not black like mine - impossible for me to change that now but I'm OK with black.

 

Cheers

Alistair

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Thanks Nigel

Well after 6 or so hours here is what copper treated with urine looks like. I really like the look but would worry if it went any darker - will see tomorrow. I lightly wiped it with tissue and sealed with Dullcote. My other test piece with vinegar and salt looks like a mess - very uneven and weird colours.

 

Cheers

Alistair

 

 

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I do like the look of that Alistair, did you do some plates that you have just left without sealing to see how dark they do get?

 

I've got plenty of spares, I'll do the 'pee' test myself, I wonder what effect Merlot has on it ;)

 

I took my lead for the batten around the copper line from Bellona, but as I  made it of boxwood strip it was the right colour. I don't really think it matters from an historical viewpoint, whose to say the batten wasn't painted for protection.

 

Look forward to seeing the further results of your experiments. :)

 

B.E.

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Yep B.E the composition of the pee must have an effect. I treated the test tiles exactly as I treated the tiles on the hull. Is it a question of what you take to make the right chemical mix for the perfect formula? I have enough dog-eared plates to keep testing and can try merlot, sauvignon and other liquids by mouth to get that right! What a laugh! This test is coffee and lemon juice - - next might be a single malt. 

 

I'll let you know how the sealed tile is tomorrow and keep experimenting :D - a perfect excuse. I'm not sure if the sealing stopped the process, I'll test that too with some unsealed tiles. I was amazed to find that my pee did not evaporate quickly and stayed liquid on the test tiles for much longer than I expected. If I do get up the courage to try it on the hull, the slow evaporation rate will help to keep it more evenly spread. I have no intention of pissing on the model. It will be applied with cotton buds as it was to the test tiles. 

 

My wife did a lot of work in architecture in SE Asia and urine was frequently used, particularly in Thailand, to age both copper and bronze.

 

Once I have the perfect formula my pee it will be sold online...no it won't - make your own! :o

 

Cheers

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Hi

Finished the coppering. I just need to add a strip of copper foil along the false keel and then overlay that with a protective wood skid.

 

Have to say I hate coppering; it is messy, it does not comply with the rules of planking, the slightest ripple in a tile is there forever (the lighting in the pictures makes this look worse) and, with my skills, port/starboard symmetry is pure luck - I was unlucky :(. I must of got slightly better at it though as I have lots of port tiles left compared to hardly any on, my first go, the starboard side.

 

As I experienced it, the slightest drift off line of laid tiles would dictate the whole flow of one course. Aside from removing all the tiles on that course - which becomes dangerous depending on how many tiles you have in reserve - you just have to go with the flow. My layout avoids stealers, gore lines and the like but that came at the expense of symmetry I think. Still I'm OK with how it came out - a bit more cleaning and burnishing is needed.

 

Anyway my next hull will be natural wood and I'll avoid coppering ever again. Next step is to tidy up the waterline strip and then I'm going to pee on my copper to make it age :D.

 

Cheers

Alistair

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Thanks Mike - No, according to my research and the FFM the top row dressed into the waterline strap at a curvature as I have done it. Other ships have different dressings such as a top row, or two, parallel to the waterline but I'm taking my reading from the FFM and other research. The other Fly/Pegasus builders here who have coppered will show the same approach.

 

Cheers

Alistair

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Alistair, coppering looks great and I'm sure that it feels good to get behind you.  The Amati copper plates look very nice, (more authentic than Calderdraft supplied ones, and I've wondered whether the Amati ones are any easier to work with).  The coppering pattern is definitely authentic, I believe the parallel plates at the waterline was used at a much later time period and on merchant ships.  Go easy with the pee :P

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Hi Alistair -- From my perspective, your agony has had a payoff:  the coppering looks mighty good.  As the years pass, and the pee-effect sets in to mellow the copper, you'll probably forget what you went through and start thinking, hmm, maybe this next build would look good with copper?  ;)

 

Cheers,

 

Martin

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Really nice job on the copper, Alistair. You may hate doing it, but it turned out great. I must say that you are a lot more adventurous about the finishing of the copper than I have ever been.

 

Bob

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Thanks for the hint about the bending jig. I'll be honest: I've read so many references to avoiding the need to bend planks edgewise that I never botheredto even think about it. I already built a jig for shaping my planks; converting to use for bending them will take no time at all.

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Thanks for all the comments and "Likes". I don't know what Caldercraft tiles look like except from photos here and the rivets are certainly more pronounced. The one bug with the Amati tiles is they are very thin so little crinkles are easily formed. I guess that is avoided by more careful application than I used in some cases but it is hard to tell what is going to arise when you use an overlapping technique as I did.

 

Having taken the masking tape off the upper works I'm much happier about the coppered look - it is growing on me! I'm pleased that the copper sort of follows the sweep of the planks at the stern - that was pure luck. My experiments with aging the copper continue. If it fails I've determined that I can bring it back to a bright polish very quickly with steel wool. Just need to get up the courage to carry it out on the actual hull. We'll see.

 

Cheers

Alistair

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