The Last Frame

[Don Case]

What do you do when the spacing just doesn't work out? The length of the keel is pretty much fixed. You started working from both ends toward the middle taking as much care with the R&S as you can. Then you put in the last frame and the last space is too big? Do you just scooch everything along a bit? The space on the Discovery should be 1/8" and the last one is more like 3/16". Trying to spread that 1/16" over thirty frames is rather daunting. I've put a third frame at the dead flat area and that didn't work. I'm wondering if I can put air spacers of whatever thickness I need in the triple frame to shim it out. Would that be acceptable? I really have no idea what the original framing was done like so maybe a little imagination is in order?

[druxey]

As your own master shipwright, you are on your own for this one. You will need to make your own decision. What you have learned is that you must check frequently for cumulative error as you go along, so you don't make this discovery at the end of framing.

Edited April 26, 2021 by druxey

[Jaager]

Quick and dirty = if the keel is made up of scraphed sections, or you wish to make it be that way, take 1/16" out of the keel length in the middle where it does not taper.  This makes the hull - what?  3 inches shorter out of 120 feet or more?

[Don Case]

I have around 60 individual frames and I'm out 1/16". That's one thou per frame and you're telling me that everyone doesn't run into this. This is wood, not steel. Actually with steel and a milling machine you would be hard pressed to make sixty parts that added up to an exact measurement🙂

Actually the part I'm worried about is when I start gluing these in. I see guys gluing them in one at a time so that they can square them up all nicely. Just the thickness of the glue makes the end result a crap shoot. Do you treat it like planking and remeasure and readjust after installing each frame. If that was the case  would you make the adjustment with the "space: dimension".

[Don Case]

16 minutes ago, Jaager said:

Quick and dirty = if the keel is made up of scraphed sections, or you wish to make it be that way, take 1/16" out of the keel length in the middle where it does not taper.  This makes the hull - what?  3 inches shorter out of 120 feet or more?

We were typing at the same time🙂 Even if I do stretch/shrink the keel I can see the same problem coming up when I glue them in.

[Jaager]

I have a similar problem with La Commerce de Marseille.  I fill the spaces and use double sided tape to keep the filling wood in place until I am ready  to punch them out.  Two layers of tape = 0.006".  I used a poor method to compensate for the addition of the tape thickness vs the thickness of the glue layer. The ship at 1:60 is a monster - about 3.5 feet between perpendiculars.  I estimate that the tape is ~0.5" over the distance. The tape part is below the wale.  I made a major error and assembled the hull "0" to FP (Col- whatever that means) and "0" to AP as two units to be joined at "0" as the last step.  I do not have the keel mounted - it goes after -just like with a carved hull. But when joined, flat to the keel, the top timbers at "0" are 0.25" apart.  not much over 3.5' but a pain to fix. about all of the gap is above the wale, so it will be hidden under planking.  The big take home lesson that I learned:  work from the deadflat and add to each end until the bow and stern are reached.  It is easier to fix the open ends than the middle.

In my case, the length of the keel will be whatever is required.

 

2 hours ago, Don Case said:

Even if I do stretch/shrink the keel I can see the same problem coming up when I glue them in.

If you start from the middle and add frames on either side, if you use a precise space thickness temp wood spacers, dry fit if you are not sure - the temp gap pieces can be made thinner if you overshoot or shim with paper if you undershoot.  Glue thickness is not an issue with free standing - frames or bends.  It is a factor with Navy Board framing or framing with chocks between the frames (if you use the chocks as you go instead of after) or if you have continuous deadwood and the top timbers are a solid wall.

[mtaylor]

Don, are you going to fully plank or leave off the planking?   If planking, just add another 1/16" to rear frame.  The logical move from here is just move the rear frame back or add the filler if it's not going to be seen.

[Don Case]

1 hour ago, mtaylor said:

Don, are you going to fully plank or leave off the planking?   If planking, just add another 1/16" to rear frame.  The logical move from here is just move the rear frame back or add the filler if it's not going to be seen.

I haven't decided yet. It seems a shame to go to all this work and not show it off but if it ain't right. It's a paradox. If you do the planking just like the original it's almost a solid wall of frames. You can't see anything behind it. If you want to see the inside of the ship then you almost have to do the framing wrong in order to see though them. Maybe the answer is to plank this to hide my learning and then do a larger section that shows off the framing and the interior. Maybe two sections,1:24, fore and aft, kind of open like an egg. Oh, I'm liking that idea.