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Coca by Foremast - Amati -1:60


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Thank you Steven. Woodrat has done exceptionally fine and original job, although I am still not fully happy with some minor points, related mainly to the winding gear arrangement. And already seen your fine collection, a lot of useful stuff indeed.

 

Besides, I try to rely on textual descriptions of the XV century Italian manuscript(s), which are so closely relevant to the Mataro model. In truth, these are the starting points and also the final benchmark, as it is known for sure they were written by a professional.

 

This is quite an etymological mess, but upon consulting some other sources, notably Instrucción náutica (1587) by Diego García De Palacio, my current understanding of the Italian XV-century manuscript is best explained by the following diagram (only partly in line with the Bellabarba interpretation, which is perhaps the most detailed so far).

 

2086867109_mataroyardgear(2).thumb.jpg.91cb1f808f330f5ce494a89fc8178501.jpg

 

 

If all this gear would be placed on the main deck behind the main mast, the capstan could easily serve the ship's anchors too, being on the same level with hawseholes.

 

Feel free to make critical comments.

 

 

 

Edited by Waldemar
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Very interesting. All this opens another question. If a single capstan is placed on the main deck, back the mainmast, the problem is: where are the riggings tied? We can lock them in rings on the deck, into blocks linked to those rings (I think this is more probable) or using a fife rail; in any way, it's difficult to imagine all those fittings on the main deck ... seeing the position of the mast, that's partially inserted into the halfdeck (for this, it's hollowed) and the mainmast's back area is under the halfdeck. All these fittings perhaps had to be on the upper halfdeck, unless they decided to place in the fore area of the main mast (but it would be very strange, with a capstan on the back) rings and blocks for the locking of the riggings. I'm not a seaman, and all this is free reasoning, so I join Wandemar in asking comments

Edited by Foremast

If any of you cry at my funeral, I'll never speak to you again! (Stan Laurel)

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Perhaps this diagram taken from Bellabarba work may be of some use, although it must be admitted that it is of limited value without the accompanying text (unfortunately, too long to quote here).

 

However, one could imagine, that most of the illustrated rigging, which is operated directly by hand (ie. without help of additional devices like capstans or windlasses), would be comfortably attached on the halfdeck level, just as it is seen in fact on the Mataro model itself or on so many contemporary pictures.

 

Works dedicated to the Mediterranean rigging would be certainly of help too. Alas, I do not have too many of them.

 

325105415_Pagesfrom74_3(1024x959).jpg.68ffb0b6c2b8712805e3f7cb517f0d79.jpg

 

Edited by Waldemar
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On 5/21/2021 at 10:17 PM, Waldemar said:

And already seen your fine collection, a lot of useful stuff indeed.

 

Thanks, Waldemar. An interesting point - I looked through my entire collection of contemporary illustrations yesterday and couldn't find a single one that showed anything that looked like halyards or ties. Many of them showed lifts attached to the yards near the yardarms, but I don't believe that would be enough - I can only assume the artists just missed the ties/halyards among the "forest" of other ropes.

 

The information you're putting up on this thread is very interesting and useful. Thanks very much for it.

 

Steven

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I think so, but of course it can never be proved. But as they say "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence". (It was thought until recently that women in the 15th century didn't wear underpants - no documentary mentions, none in iconography, no archaeological evidence. Then they found some, proving they really were used.)

 

Steven

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Oh no, Steven... You have utterly ruined my perception of medieval clothing and behaviour...

 

But more seriously – your conclusion concerning those ties may be regarded as proven by the medieval shipbuilding treatise itself. At least according to Bellabarba's interpretation: there are unquestionable lifts (mantichi), there are ties (manti, amante) and there is what is called rize, which he interprets as collars fixed permanently to the ties. This is shown in the diagram below:

 

1046612636_mataroyardgear(2).jpg.d4a62140152afb123108b9aec1d5f1c1.jpg


Having said that, I almost hesitate to advance yet another hypothesis (born while having your remark in mind), in which ties (manti/amanti) are used for both hoisting the yard and serving as lifts, as illustrated in the drawing as an alternative setup. 

 

This alternative layout has some advantages:


– it is hopefully still coherent with somewhat unclear medieval  manuscript description,
– it is compatible with ALL extant iconography, in a sense that ties/jeers/halyards are never depicted on the pictures (thanks Steven for sharing this important observation),
– it follows the Mataro model arrangement, or at least does not contradict it,
– it provides some practical advantages: after fixing the yard by means of a sling, the ties could be easily operated as lifts even manually (besides other, optional lifts perhaps), thus freeing the windlass/capstan for some other activities,
– last but not least, it is perhaps the simplest, yet hopefully functional arrangement one could imagine.

 

And a drawback: obviously no mechanical advantage is provided by rope tackles (only by windlass/capstan levers), unless halyard is allowed after all.

 

Again, feel free to make critical comments.

 

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That's very interesting speculation, Waldemar (BTW, this discussion is something of a hijack of Foremast's thread, but as it's still on-topic with his own build I hope he won't mind). As Gene Wilder says in Young Frankenstein "IT - COULD - WORK!!"

 

The bit about women's underwear - I'd always thought it went against common sense. Men's underwear is repeatedly shown in contemporary illustrations, but on a purely practical basis if anyone needed that kind of thing, it would surely be women rather than men.

 

I was going to raise the issue of mechanical advantage if there's no blocks and tackle. And at least in the bigger carracks, the mainyard and mainsail were enormous and must have been very heavy.

 

Steven

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An extension of the theme, suitable for larger ships. Its drawback – disagreement with medieval shipbuilding manual, which allows only twice the mast length above the deck for the ties.

 

 

1753920215_mataroyardgear(2).jpg.37daf9b4e86c73b76e607bf9d0cb1daf.jpg

 

 

 

Alex, I can only hope it does not bother you. Waiting eagerly for your next entries...

 

 

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Upon consulting still more works and sources (of which one of the most informative was the book Maritime Technological Change in the Ancient Mediterranean: The invention of the lateen sail by Richard Whitewright), my hopefully final, graphical interpretation of the unclear XV-century manuscript can be seen below.

 

459350170_mataroyardgear(2).jpg.f93f4889790f43912d7be5065ce884fb.jpg

 

At last I am quite happy with this arrangement, and this is what I intend to apply to my Mataro model. Many thanks for help to you Alex and Steven. Of course still curious of your – perhaps different – solutions.

 

As an aside, lifting the main yard on a large ship could take as long as one hour...

 

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thanks to you, Waldemar for the study. I'm thinking to something similar, without temporary splicing. I'm also still in doubt about the knighthead but in the end I tink to place it

 

Another little step. Keel almost completed and temporary placed, aiming to the the wales

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If any of you cry at my funeral, I'll never speak to you again! (Stan Laurel)

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That looks fine, Waldemar. Except for the calcet (my ship is English, after all) I used a similar method on my Great Harry  - see post #319 at 

 but I wasn't really certain it was appropriate for my period, as at least one of the books related to ships from about 1620 onwards. Does your book specifically mention the ramshead block/knight assembly for the late 15th century?

 

Steven

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Alex: Beauty taking shape... Fine, neat job.

 

Steven: Both pictorial and archaeological evidence is described in the mentioned book (although not specifically for the 15th century, but for earlier period), and even comparisons with more modern, non-European practices are made. There are some graphical samples below:

 

115105729_Port-Vendres2(1012x1024)(791x800).jpg.b47751c2047196748a9a639402301f9d.jpg

Reconstruction of the multi-sheave block excavated from Port-Vendres 2 shipwreck (c. AD 42-48), based on the measurements given by Carre (1983: 41)

 

 

2047689248_SerceLimani(1024x967)(800x755).jpg.632e52bace9497ea0675828f644b1fc3.jpg

Block RG1, probably the upper block from the foremast halyard system of the Serçe Limani shipwreck (11th Century, c. 1025)

 

 

578144469_Kelenderis(501x328).jpg.973ac7298e52f82cd88df6921d44315e.jpg

Period/Date: 5th–6th century AD; Medium: Mosaic; Origin: Kelenderis, Turkey

 

 

144371199_Corinth(800x571).jpg.d6af5c489c06fa3043a1b55ce33d3704.jpg

Period/Date: Byzantine, 5th-6th century AD; Medium: Graffito; Origin: Corinth, Greece

 

 

1535558531_Kellia(800x641).jpg.4e7711e069682bb54cb3ae0eebc61296.jpg

Period/Date: AD 600-630; Medium: Graffiti; Origin: Monastery (Kellia) 80 km SE of Alexandria

 

 

13735893_880-883(800x379).jpg.b30c69b8ae42bc02169f5ccdf735393c.jpg

Period/Date: AD 880–883; Medium: Manuscript; Origin: Byzantine

 

 

Chalki.jpg.09c760b2cfcad20c7ef3d1509f5f88f5.jpg

Period/Date: 9th century; Medium: Manuscript; Origin: Chalki Island, Turkey

 

 

Actually, this book is a thesis for the degree of Doctor of Philosophy found in the public-domain area. I think I would not violate any right by sending this work by e-mail, especially for non-commercial use. Your wish (and e-mail address) is only required.

 

Richard Julian Whitewright, Maritime Technological Change in the Ancient Mediterranean. The invention of the lateen sail, 2008
Volume One – 16.1 MB
Volume Two – 56.6 MB

 

Or:

https://www.academia.edu/562936/Maritime_Technological_Change_in_the_Ancient_World_The_invention_of_the_lateen_sail_Volume_One

and:

https://www.academia.edu/562943/Maritime_Technological_Change_in_the_Ancient_World_The_invention_of_the_lateen_sail_Volume_Two

Edited by Waldemar
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Oh heck! I've already got it! But thanks so much for the offer. I've read it at least once, but I'll have to go over it in more detail.

 

I actually used the Serçe Limani block in my dromon build (!) and yes, for the halyard . . . (see posts #1170 and #1172 at https://modelshipworld.com/topic/10344-10th-11th-century-byzantine-dromon-by-louie-da-fly-150-finished/page/39/)

 

 

Steven

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Steven, I have re-read your finely researched log and it seems there is general consensus on the halyard issue.

 

Only 'smaller' rigging details need clarification. For example – what are rize (rixe, strixe), mentioned in the 15th-century manuscript? There are two of them, each with a length of 5 times the yard circumference, and both of the ties' thickness. And they are somehow connected to the yard.

 

Bellabarba interpretation is not quite convincing (see #67, left), and I feel they are slings, as this layout hopefully makes everything logic. But perhaps you have other ideas, which you may share here...

 

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As said, Im not a sailorman so I've searched something.

In modern naval Italian, the word "rizza" (noun very close to ancient italian "riza") is a rope destined to secure a mobile load, and usually equipped with a turnbuckle; and the word "drizza" (noun very close to "riza" too) is the halyard, wich is a specific - well identified - "rizza".

In modern naval Italian "amantiglio" - plural: "amantigli" (noun very close to ancient "manti" and "amanti") is the running rigging that hangs a flagpole. 

In my opinion Bellabarba's "riza" is the halyard. And his "manti" (that's a plural noun) are the lower lifts.

 

Little progress. Wales completed, with a little change of idea: the first wale is black, not red as previuos thought

 

 

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If any of you cry at my funeral, I'll never speak to you again! (Stan Laurel)

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Alex, thank you very much for the translations of these ancient, obscure terms. So (im-)patiently waiting for the rigging installation on your model.

 

And nice, neat job of aligning the wales with the hull's strakes. How did you make your wales black?

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The wales are dark brown tainted. I’ve stained with wengè mordant- two hands. 

 

I have to correct my previuos message about ancient terms. I've found a precisation:

 

- amante = each rope that is connected to the yard, to lift it; they were two (plural: amanti), coupled. So, you're right in your drawing. The term comes from ancient galleys - so was named the rope that raised and lowered the yard

- riza (rizza) = rope destined to secure a mobile load. In your drawing, correct: the "rize" (2 - plural) are just hanging the yard and connected to the "amanti"

- drizza = the running rigging that raises the yard. The term, properly, indicated the rope between the ramshead and the knighthead. Usually, the word "drizza" indicated both "amanti" and "drizza" (so specificated), all together. 

Edited by Foremast
precisation

If any of you cry at my funeral, I'll never speak to you again! (Stan Laurel)

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Another step in my shipyard. Now the main deck is planked and the ship has its knee of the head. Also done: hawse holes and scuppers. Last work, the big bitt under the forecastle; I made it by carving a piece of walnut - real walnut wood, not tanganika or mansonia.

 

Cheers Alex

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Edited by Foremast

If any of you cry at my funeral, I'll never speak to you again! (Stan Laurel)

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