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HMS Victory by Bill97 - Heller - 1/100


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I have been reduced to making little tiny furniture for the Admiral’s quarters.  Also eyes are starting to cross putting Daniel’s microscopic little pieces on the cannons. Daniel thanks for adding some extra. Even though I am using a magnetic tweezer I have still had several take off into an alternate universe.  😊

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Ok this is going to be one of those hummm 🤔 questions. I am going to rig my cannons according to the directions in Longridge’s book (see photo). I want to put the coil of rope at the end of the line as in the picture. I have reviewed several methods for making the coils on MSW. I am thinking I probably need to do the rigging in reverse?  Make the coil and then rig the line backwards through the blocks to the last anchor point?  Can’t see how I could rig the cannons then attempt to make a coil with the remaining line. Very small area and could not use any kind of jig after the fact. Or do you make coils that are separate of the actual rigging line and just glue them in place as if part of same line?

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Edited by Bill97
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Ian I need a little extra advice. Back in post #410 you said:  

 

 “Remember BEFORE you glue in the quarterdeck that there are not only the lower sheets and tacks to attach to parts 41 & 100 we talked about already, but also lines to tie to part 89 (mainyard jeers, main topsail sheets, mainsail clew garnets; see note near top of pg 267 in Longridge).”

 

I am not following “lines to part 89.” I looked at the instructions and Longridge’s book and am not understanding what you advise I do at this point before I put on the Quarter deck. 

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Hi Bill; 

 

There are three pairs of ropes that pass thru the 1/4deck gratings beside and aft of the mainmast, specifically the mainyard jeer falls, mainsail clew garnets, and the main topsail sheets (refer again to the note at the top of pg267 "Belaying Plan Quarter Deck" with the line pointing to the gratings beside the mast).

 

These ropes are tied off at the main deck bitts part # 89 (two of them) just forward and just aft of the main mast, respectively.

 

It is much easier to tie these to the bitts and form any desired coils BEFORE the quarterdeck is cemented in, and either pass the threads through the quarterdeck as you are gluing, or after gluing, than to attempt to tie them off after adding the deck. That's all I meant to advise.

 

Longridge also has a photo, Plate 46 between pg196 and pg197, showing the bitts. The aft bitts receive the jeers and garnets, the forward the topsail sheets, as the caption mentions.

 

Note: on the old Victory web site there was debate about whether a larger gap should be opened in the gratings to allow these lines to pass through, or whether the gratings should be removed entirely. Not sure there was a firm conclusion; Daniel might have an update 🙂.

Edited by Ian_Grant
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Bill, just looking at the cannon ‘problem’, what about making the coil as the last step, coiling from the inside out. I would try making a little jig which would simply be a very short bit of round evergreen or spruce set vertically on something like a small piece of evergreen sheet, with a slot or hole through the middle to hold the end of the rope while coiling. If you coil as a mirror image you could glue the coil and, once dry, pop it off the jig into its proper position and the glue might not even show as it would now be on the bottom of the coil. Then tease the starting end into place or snip it off. I’d expect to have to do a couple of dry runs to work out how much rope was needed. There’s  a handy thread on using matt nail varnish instead of glue, below. 
 

Zulu “Lady Isabella” by EKE - FINISHED - Vanguard Models - 1:64

 

 

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Kevin I think I got the rope coil solved. I ended up with a scale issue with blocks however. Longridge’s book said a scale block for the cannon rigging would be 3/16”. I decided to go with 3mm blocks. I made a bunch of eyebolts, drilled tiny holes in the trucks and put the eyebolts in. I added a small piece of evergreen on each side of the cannon hatch and added eyebolts in each. I added the evergreen to give just a bit more thickness so the stem of the eyebolt would not sneak to the outside of the hull. I then made my coil on the end of a each rope with the plan to rig in reverse. Once I had all my eyebolts in, cannon glued in position, and coil made at the end of a thread I glued the coil in position to the deck. I then rigged backwards through the blocks ending at the cannon and clipping off the excess thread. I think the 3mm blocks are actually bigger than I wish they were but I am going to live with it. They are to close together even though I did not run the cannon all the way out. 

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Bill,

 

The gun tackle 9" blocks at 1/100 scale work out to 0.090" or just over 2mm. The size quoted 3/16" or 0.1875 is scale for Longridge's larger model and as such are far too large for the Heller Victory. As you say, your 3mm blocks at 0.118" are about 30% too large for the scale. I suggest you leave them if you have done many guns, but switch to 2mm blocks for the "show" guns on the quarterdeck. These guns, being smaller, would accentuate oversize 3mm blocks even more.

Edited by Ian_Grant
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They do look too big, don't they. I've printed off some scaled down blocks at 1.5mm and 2mm as per Ian's excel sheet and these are incredibly small; this looks like real 'threading the needle' stuff and you'd definitely need magnification and a lot of spares! Bill, in the small picture below, the big block is a 5.5mm, so you'll be able to compare shortly. I'm not even sure if I could thread the micro's, something to try this weekend.

 

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Yeah guys I am going to have to give this some extra thought. May be why Heller did not include tiny blocks to rig the cannons. Ian I have your spread sheet but did not check it because I was incorrectly thinking Longridge’s book was for 1/100 scale. Since I plan to use wooden blocks for rigging the ship I had all these Heller 3mm blocks that came with the kit I thought I would just paint to match my wooden ones and use them on the cannons which Heller did not intend to be rigged. Once I did several I realized “this does not look right!”  I only did 6 “show guns”on each side that you can see through the opening in the Quarter deck.  I was considering displaying the 3 boats deployed off the Victory so as to not obstruct the view down into the Upper deck if the rigging of the cannons was impressive enough!  Like you said Kevin, I don’t know if I could thread a 2mm block 🤔😳.

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I have a plan. I don't think 1.5mm are practical so will park those in favour of 2mm, even though that could those which should be 1.5 would be 30% out of scale. For the 2mm, the issue is that the walls of these are only about 0.15mm thick - that's just less than the thickness of a decent quality bit of paper. So there's no room to widen the holes, which at this scale are about 0.2mm - 0.3mm. However there is room to turn these into slots which might just allow threading using one of those sewing kit things.

 

Ian, have you used blocks this small or seen anyone use them?

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Kevin, wow you are really making use of your 3D printer! Is PLA such that those blocks would hold together?

 

Syren has 2mm wood blocks, which I used. Threading them is ok, stropping them somewhat harder. But after a few, you get the knack. As Kevin says a head magnifier is essential.

 

I had some close-up photos of my gun tackles, but they were in my old computer, alas. Here is the best shot I could find in my current pictures. Pardon the dust 😬

 

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I believe I have a plan that will work. I took the 3mm blocks I originally used to rig the cannon tackle and cut them down to 2mm. Basically I file one end down to the shelve and rounded the edges. That way the single and double both worked. The first one pictured is the test. Clean them all up and do a little touch up paint and I think they will work. Still a slight bigger than scale would call for but better. What do you think?

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11 hours ago, Kevin-the-lubber said:

They do look too big, don't they. I've printed off some scaled down blocks at 1.5mm and 2mm as per Ian's excel sheet and these are incredibly small; this looks like ......<snip>

 

        

My spreadsheet has all the exact block sizes calculated in a row near the bottom; somewhere just below that is a line indicating which available scale block size to use. A given scale block size necessarily covers a range of actual sizes. All this to say that I used 2mm to cover the smaliest blocks. I wouldn't advocate trying to find or fabricate 1.5mm blocks. The 2mm are quite tiny enough. 😀

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That looks better, Bill. I tried threading the 2mm earlier but couldn’t get my smallest thread through it so I’m seeing what happens with enlarged, ovoid holes. Though that opens another can of worms, that the rope itself becomes out of scale. Ian, I agree, 1.5mm is just too small.  And to answer the question, will they hold, to be honest I don’t yet know but I don’t see why they wouldn’t, the force on them is minimal. It’s probably possible to come up with a jig to make stropping easier, that looks like a nightmare freehand. Bill how have you found that with the filed down blocks?

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These are the 3mm blocks that came with the kit filed down to the sheaf at one end and rounded a little. They average right at 2mm. Some are just a hair bigger, some a hair smaller depending on my filing. I repainted them and strung them on a wire to attach the threads too that will tie to the eyebolts. The hole for the thread during rigging remains the same since I did not do anything to change that. 

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Ok here is my finished product on the cannon tackle. I reduced the 3mm blocks included with the kit down to a tiny bit smaller than 2mm, made my own small metal eyebolts for the sides of the carriages and the inside sides of the hatches, attached the tiny blocks to the eyebolts, then used .35mm thread to rig. Set the cannon back enough to give space between the blocks but still extended enough out the hatch to give a nice appearance. Made rope coils for display of the ends of the rigging thread. This is on the Upper deck so I am just doing this with the 7 “show cannons” you can see through the large opening in the Quarter deck. One done. Thirteen to go on this deck!

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Bill, in between times I've played around with these blocks over the last few days and got something reasonable. In truth these are 2.3mm which, for me anyway, will be close enough. I wouldn't say I'm particularly happy with them, I had to make them more square-ish rather than ovoid in order to gain a little thickness, as 0.15mm walls were proving fragile and they are still a bit clunky. I'm sure, when I come to using them a good few months from now, I'll tweak further. Regardless, if you're inclined to re-visit with thinner rope, I'll send you some of these. That rope in my pictures seems just the right size. It's about 0.15mm thick. No idea which kit it came from, I have a little stash off ebay and people sometimes throw in all sorts of stuff. 

 

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Thanks Ian and Kevin. Kevin I think I am going to stick with these blocks I made from the ones in the kit. I already have them attached to the cannns and the ship. I do believe I have some smaller thread which I will try. 

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Ok gentlemen this comes under the categories “it is what it is” and “time to move on”.  I used the smaller thread and rigged the cannons. I am still going to make some small coils to place where the end of the thread touches the deck. Kevin what I found after a couple weeks wrestling with this one application is that, as you have found, you can’t get the blocks much smaller than about 2mm and have them useable. At that size if you have the cannons run out any at all the two blocks get real close together and you do not see the thread that much. I even eliminated the hooks that Longridge shows to use to connect the blocks to the hull and carriages trying to use up space so blocks would have distance between them. After everything they are still closer than I wish, but oh well. Moving on to other battles.

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