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The stem - for a 1719 Establishments ship - a question


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I have the stock thickness at the knighthead, hawse level, and forefoot.  It tapers,  which will be a joy to shape.

My question is:  Is it the same thickness along its whole depth?  Does it knife edge taper to the edge where it meets the water?

If it does, does it loose about half of its thickness?  If it tapers forward, does it stop at the LWL?  Does the wide part under the head rails on to the figurehead also taper.

 

It would please me if it is slab sided all the way.  It would look sleeker if it had a knife-like entry.

 

Was this all a 19th century obsession with speed characteristic?

 

NRG member 45 years

 

Current:  

HMS Centurion 1732 - 60-gun 4th rate - Navall Timber framing

HMS Beagle 1831 refiit  10-gun brig with a small mizzen - Navall (ish) Timber framing

The U.S. Ex. Ex. 1838-1842
Flying Fish 1838  pilot schooner -  framed - ready for stern timbers
Porpose II  1836  brigantine/brig - framed - ready for hawse and stern timbers
Vincennes  1825  Sloop-of-War  -  timbers assembled, need shaping
Peacock  1828  Sloop-of -War  -  timbers ready for assembly
Sea Gull  1838  pilot schooner -  timbers ready for assembly
Relief  1835  ship - timbers ready for assembly

Other

Portsmouth  1843  Sloop-of-War  -  timbers ready for assembly
Le Commerce de Marseilles  1788   118 cannons - framed

La Renommee 1744 Frigate - framed - ready for hawse and stern timbers

 

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It is HMS Centurion 1732  1:60 scale  a 60 gun fourth rate.  A really attractive ship. The as launched version.   I came across it in  Longitude.   I had no idea that it was so famous  until I started researching it for a build.   Before this, I had never paid any attention to 60 gun warships.  They are a sweet spot for size and elegance.  

 

I have no interest in doing the beat up version after its circumnavigation    My inner cynic  sees it accomplishing two major achievements with that mission.  One it saved the crown a lot of money by killing off all of the old retired marines in governnent rest homes.  Two, starting a rip roaring inflation by delivering the hijacked Spanish treasure in the annul; Manila to the crown.  Treasure that the Spanish had stolen from Asians. 

NRG member 45 years

 

Current:  

HMS Centurion 1732 - 60-gun 4th rate - Navall Timber framing

HMS Beagle 1831 refiit  10-gun brig with a small mizzen - Navall (ish) Timber framing

The U.S. Ex. Ex. 1838-1842
Flying Fish 1838  pilot schooner -  framed - ready for stern timbers
Porpose II  1836  brigantine/brig - framed - ready for hawse and stern timbers
Vincennes  1825  Sloop-of-War  -  timbers assembled, need shaping
Peacock  1828  Sloop-of -War  -  timbers ready for assembly
Sea Gull  1838  pilot schooner -  timbers ready for assembly
Relief  1835  ship - timbers ready for assembly

Other

Portsmouth  1843  Sloop-of-War  -  timbers ready for assembly
Le Commerce de Marseilles  1788   118 cannons - framed

La Renommee 1744 Frigate - framed - ready for hawse and stern timbers

 

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I don't if this will help Jaager.  It is a combination of scantlings from the 1719 Establishment and the bow photo of Centurion from RMG. Hopefully someone more familiar will have better information specific to Centurion 1732. There is a lot of detail on this area in TFFM Volume I but I don't know if ratios would be apropos for a 4th rate of 1732.   At the top, the width of the stem is 21" and the knee of the head is slightly thinner (19"?) at the top where it fays to the stem.  The taper to 8 inches  at the foremost part of the knee of the head was found using the photo itself.   The taper going down is using width of the foot of the knee of the head matching  the width of the keel forward, which the 1719 Establishment shows to be 13"  for a 60 gun ship.  

Allan

1020957875_Centurianbow.JPG.7d7b0982feac5c4c0932101715931e07.JPG

Edited by allanyed

PLEASE take 30 SECONDS and sign up for the epic Nelson/Trafalgar project if you would like to see it made into a TV series.   Click on http://trafalgar.tv   There is no cost other than the 30 seconds of your time.  THANK YOU

 

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3 hours ago, allanyed said:

I don't if this will help Jaager.

It helps very much, thank you.

 

Allan,

 

That is exactly the information that I needed.

The 13"  I have from the Establishments.

The 21" I have from the Establishments.

It is 15" at the top of the wale.   {There are more than one 18th century models of this ship.  All feature the main wale as being 3 strakes.  The model that you show has the middle one as being thinner than the other two.  Most or all of the others have 3 three strakes as being the same thickness and all are black.   I have about decided to go with the majority and have 3 equal strakes - even though it means 50% more hook and butt.}

 

I do not know where the 19 " came from, but with it being 8" at the bottom of the figurehead, it tells me that the taper starts at the knight-head (- at the top).   All in all, a lot of tricky planing.   I may make up the whole stem from a single board and practice planing on it or them until I feel comfortable.   It would not be fun to mess up a complex of scarphed pieces that will be tricky to do to begin with.

 

The keel is 15" square, but tapers to 10.5" at the sternpost and 13" at the forefoot.  What is not said is where the reduction starts.   The keel was 5 pieces.   My plan is to divide the length of the keel by 5.  Have a separate piece for the stern assembly that is 1/5 long and start the aft taper in it.  Have another equal 1/5 piece at the bow and start the taper foreward in it.   The other 3/5 as a single piece.   I verified what I thought in Antscherl, the keel scarphs are a vertical line as seen from the side.   A current build showing the scarph as a lazy "Z" as seen from the side gave me pause for a minute.  I would think that the hogging force make a side lazy "Z" scarph vulnerable to separation?

NRG member 45 years

 

Current:  

HMS Centurion 1732 - 60-gun 4th rate - Navall Timber framing

HMS Beagle 1831 refiit  10-gun brig with a small mizzen - Navall (ish) Timber framing

The U.S. Ex. Ex. 1838-1842
Flying Fish 1838  pilot schooner -  framed - ready for stern timbers
Porpose II  1836  brigantine/brig - framed - ready for hawse and stern timbers
Vincennes  1825  Sloop-of-War  -  timbers assembled, need shaping
Peacock  1828  Sloop-of -War  -  timbers ready for assembly
Sea Gull  1838  pilot schooner -  timbers ready for assembly
Relief  1835  ship - timbers ready for assembly

Other

Portsmouth  1843  Sloop-of-War  -  timbers ready for assembly
Le Commerce de Marseilles  1788   118 cannons - framed

La Renommee 1744 Frigate - framed - ready for hawse and stern timbers

 

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Jaager,

Shaping the narrowing  in several directions is a challenge to say the least.  I mark the thicknesses along the two outboard edges of the completed knee of the head all the way around then temporarily glue a block to one  side somewhere in the middle.  The block is big enough to be able to hold with several fingers and thumb.  Then I carefully sand it close to the lines on one side with my belt sander.  Once close, I remove the block and temporarily glue to the sanded side and repeat the sanding on the other side.

 

Once this is done I use a big sanding block to finish.   A plane maybe a great way to go to make the tapers, but based on TFFM, the taper is not a straight line as there is a slight curve for the first few feet in the area of the upper portion of the inboard most hawse piece.  This can be handled using the end of the belt sander and hand sanding, but a plane may prove difficult.   This initial taper ends at what I THINK would be below the hance as described in the 1719 Establishment (the 15" dimension you indicate.)  I don't know if this was something on all ships, particularly Centurion.  The balance of the taper going down would then be 15" to 13" at the foot. Chisels would work as well but my chisel skills leave something to be desired. 

 

If this description sounds complex, the actual execution in making the tapers is worse.

 

Allan

PLEASE take 30 SECONDS and sign up for the epic Nelson/Trafalgar project if you would like to see it made into a TV series.   Click on http://trafalgar.tv   There is no cost other than the 30 seconds of your time.  THANK YOU

 

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