Winchelsea Nef by AnchorClanker - Scale 1:96 - first wood scratch build

[AnchorClanker]

In the past, as I read about how the frames of sailing ships were constructed, I was hoping to 'short-cut' that process.  

[mtaylor]

2 hours ago, Chief Mark said:

Looking at the drawing of my frames, the grain of the wood is horizontal. The frames are two half frames.  The grain of the beams will be oriented longitudinally.  Considering the scale, 1:96, I was hoping orienting the grain of the wood in this fashion would eliminate or at least reduce the effects of the grain.  It seems to me, I need more advice and to study the frames in the photos and how others have made their frames.

 

 

For frames, I'd use two pieces of wood glued together for the frames, use one with the grain running vertically and the other horizontally.  This will give you some strength in both directions since they're one piece frames.  Once glued and dry, you cut the whole frame from that sandwich.

[Louie da fly]

Yes, sort of plywood if you like. But of course each ply should be half the final thickness of the frames.

[AnchorClanker]

Thank you for the advice.  I'll have to make another trip to the hobby shop!    

 

I think I'll remake the stem post, stern post, and keel as well.  

 

[Louie da fly]

On 2/22/2022 at 2:18 AM, Chief Mark said:

Thank you for the advice.  I'll have to make another trip to the hobby shop!    

 

I think I'll remake the stem post, stern post, and keel as well.  

 

Oh boy. I hope we're not making your life too hard for you . . .

 

Steven

 

[AnchorClanker]

Oh!  Heavens, no!  I decided to continue building the original ship as a means to learn how to do make and attach the strakes, wales, and bottom planks.  At the same time, 'start over' with making the 'plywood' frames, stem post, stern post, and keel.  I am also looking more closely at how you built your frames and seeing how I was missing some details.  Today I will start to redraw my frame plans.  So, all is well and not lost.  

 

Fair winds and following seas, 

Mark

 

[AnchorClanker]

At the same time, thank you for your concern!    

[Louie da fly]

6 hours ago, Chief Mark said:

 I am also looking more closely at how you built your frames and seeing how I was missing some details.

 

Just be aware that I changed my mind about the frame construction partway through, and started making them a completely different way - see post #158 and #166  in my build log. The hefty through-beams and the deck-beams help keep the hull shape, compensating for the weaker construction method, as you can see in post #171.

 

You could probably assemble each of your frames as a unit consisting of the floor-timber, the futtocks and the deck-beam, which would add to the rigidity of its construction (strictly, the deck-beams should rest on the beam shelf, but all of that would be covered by the deck anyway, so it would be invisible).

 

Keep in mind that these ships almost certainly were built planking-first, not frame-first - the planking was put together then the frames were added. Frame-first construction was a later development. But unless you've got your wits about you, plank-first construction has a tendency to "squeeze" inwards resulting in a narrower vessel. There's nothing to stop you building yours frame-first - in fact there's a lot to be said for it, for consistency and symmetry and getting the hull-shape right.

 

Steven

[AnchorClanker]

Interesting information about planking first construction then frames.  It seems backwards; but then they built ships.  Thank you for the heads up.  

[bolin]

I have built three models with shell-first (or plank-first if you will) method. See my signature for links. They have all been built upside down over moulds. This ensures the shape of the hull. When lifted of the mould the hull shapes where all surprisingly stable. 
 

However, these where not my absolutely first models. I would consider the method slightly harder than building frames first.

[Louie da fly]

My own nef was built plank first over a wooden mould or plug, but I have to admit I did find it difficult to get it exactly symmetrical, and frame first would be better in that respect.

 

Steven

[AnchorClanker]

A few years ago in anticipation of becoming a model shipwright, I made this custom table saw throat.  With the stock throat, the saw chipped chunks away at thinner pieces of wood.  This throat prevents that.  Using it provides a nice clean cut.  

[AnchorClanker]

After researching how to build keels and frames and asking experienced model shipwright questions, I decided to start over.  That being said, I am using my first attempt as a learning exercise before building frames by constituent parts and to build them one frame at a time.  This will also allow practice making the planks, strakes, and wales before attempting the start over.  I created a jig to hold the model as the frames are put into place.  The photo shows the jig and the stem and stern posts and the keel in place.

 

Edited June 28, 2022 by Chief Mark

[AnchorClanker]

Here are the current frames dry fitted.  Some of the frames have notches that ended up too wide and need to be remade.  The first two frames are glued in place; the stem post being to the right.  

 

Louie da fly was a great help in answering questions about making frames etc out of solid stock or out of laminated stock or plywood.  

 

[AnchorClanker]

Okay, Here is the photo.  

[AnchorClanker]

Before gluing the frames in place, I will make the deck and through beams and glue them to the frames.  I redrew the frames with futtocks, deck  beams, and through beams as appropriate.  

 

I am looking forward to building the same ship a couple times at the same time.  It will be an exercise of 'consistency' between the two models.  Besides, I feel like I have a bit of 'catching up' to do with some of the rest of you!     I want to make sure my technique is good before tackling a larger project.  

 

[mtaylor]

So far, so good.  You are on your way.   One question though, what are you using to get the frames square to the keel both fore and aft and vertically?  

[Louie da fly]

Looking good, but can I suggest the frames don't need to be anything like so heavy - check out the frames on surviving ships of this period.

 

 

 

 

The first is a Viking knarr (Skuldelev 1) , the second is the Bremen cog (with through-beams for strength).

 

The timbers of your frames can be considerably lighter - both thinner and narrower - and still produce a strong sturdy hull. The deck-beams, and particularly the through-beams,  provide rigidity to the frames and help the hull keep its shape.

 

And here's a modern reproduction to show just how light a construction you can get away with, particularly when you build in clinker.

 

 

And it's even better in a model, which is not subjected to the same kinds of forces a full-size vessel has to contend with.

 

Best wishes,

 

Steven

Edited April 6, 2022 by Louie da fly

[AnchorClanker]

Yes, I entire agree the frames are way too thick!  For the restart, I will use smaller stock and change the blade on my scroll saw before cutting.     

 

[AnchorClanker]

In order to square the frames laterally and longitudinally, I will use modeling clay.  Also, the fit is sort of snug, so that helps.  I'll post a photo with the frames supported by modeling clay.  I used this method when building models as a kid as well as later in life.  Using a small square piece of wood as my 'level' is also a help.  

 

Edited April 6, 2022 by Chief Mark

[Louie da fly]

Some people use Lego blocks, which have the advantage that all their angles are right angles.

 

Steven

[Jim Lad]

Lego blocks are a great resource, Steven - and also have the advantage of being cheap and easily available.

 

John

[AnchorClanker]

On 4/5/2022 at 8:19 PM, mtaylor said:

So far, so good.  You are on your way.   One question though, what are you using to get the frames square to the keel both fore and aft and vertically?  

After working on frames before attaching them to the keel, your question is prompting me to rethink how I’m going to do this. Small levels might work just fine as will using either Lego blocks or, as I have done in the past for other projects, used small 1” x 1” pieces of squared off wood.  What is your advise? 

[Chuck Seiler]

    You need to ensure the frames are square to the keel in 3 dimensions.   Square to the build board, square to the keel and side to side.  This third one is often overlooked.

 

    I used this on my ARMED LONGBOAT buildboard.  By using reference marks on the frame or the tops of the frames (as long as the frames are mirror image, side to side) this item can be used to square the frame and ensure it is not canted to one side of the other.

[mtaylor]

Lego's seem to work very well and so does what Chuck shows.  

[AnchorClanker]

Chuck,

You confirmed my thinking is correct in that it is a 3-dimensional situation.  Your jig looks greats.  Thank you for the example.

Mark

 

[AnchorClanker]

Attached are two photos of progress so far.  I am making notes regarding refining my process as the building progresses.  Even though early on I realized the wood is too thick, actually seeing the long-term results at each step of the way helps in improving the process.  Even so, I am enjoying the process and the results.  I am looking forward to my next effort!  

Not all the frames are complete; that will come over the next few days.  Next is making a jig to make sure the three dimensions will be square before gluing the frames to the posts and keel.  I need to be precise in marking where the frames are attached to the posts and keel.  It is important to thinking about what comes after attaching the frames to make sure the frames are attached correctly. 

 

 

Edited April 11, 2022 by Chief Mark

[Louie da fly]

As I understand it this is dry fitted, and you won't glue it till you've made and used your jig to get everything square?

 

And am I correct in thinking that this is a sort of "dry run" to work out and solve problems before you do another with lighter timber for your frames?

 

Looking good, mate.

 

Steven

[AnchorClanker]

That is correct.  

[AnchorClanker]

After making each frame, I will redraw the frame to how it was actually constructed.  In terms of the hull planks, this current build is my ‘dry run’ as well.  After each plank is made, I will trace it.  This current build is also giving me ideas in how to draw and plan frames, futtocks, knees, deck deck beams, stem and stern posts,  and keels and how to mark them as to where the frames attach.