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Welcome to MSW Juddson!!!

You are correct in referring to the "style"   This thread has addressed several styles of framing, (not bulkhead construction) starting with the so called Hahn method which uses sistered frames that do not reflect how the actual ship was built, the Navy Board style which Druxey has shown in his photos and was commonly used on contemporary models, and fully framed which follows actual practice in the ship yards.  Scantlings of each part of a frame are available by measuring contemporary drawings, contracts for the ship you are building if available, or in several books that give scantlings for various years, mostly from the 1719 Establishment through David Steel's folios for ships in the late 18th century into the early 19th century. 

 

Spacing on the actual ship was normally only an inch or two as the futtocks reduced in size as you go up from the floor to the  top timbers.   Below are the "Hahn" style, Most common Navy Board Style (photo from Anderson's Navy Board Models Page 11 and a contemporary drawing of the framing disposition of HMS Jason (30) 1794.  Note in the drawing of Jason, there are dashed lines that represent the station lines as well as the edges of the frames.  These coincide with a frame edge on this drawing, but that is not always the case. 

 

I realize the drawing on the right is not very clear, but there are high resolution images of contemporary drawings of framing dispositions that you can search for at https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Ship_plans_of_the_Royal_Museums_Greenwich including the Jason on the tenth page.

Allan

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Edited by allanyed

PLEASE take 30 SECONDS and sign up for the epic Nelson/Trafalgar project if you would like to see it made into a TV series.   Click on http://trafalgar.tv   There is no cost other than the 30 seconds of your time.  THANK YOU

 

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Unless you are building a model and have actual accurate information about framing used by the original builders, it’s all pretty much a matter of style.

 

There are several types of original information that you might have:

 

An actual “disposition of frame drawing.”  These were sometimes produced by various admiralty dockyards and have been conserved and made available by museums.

 

Known framing practices for a given vessel.  Framing practices for Eighteenth Century warships built in British Dockyards have been thoroughly researched and are documented in books like The Construction and Fitting of English Men of War and The Fully Framed Ship Model.  Note:  English men of war were also built in private yards where framing practices might have been different.  Monographs for French built vessels are also available from Ancre. I believe, they often include actual framing information.

 

Framing information developed from existing vessels or archeological exploration of wrecks.  Even this might not be conclusive unless the existing ship has actually been disassembled.  For example the actual framing of Vasa is not fully known as the neither the ceiling on the inside or planking on the outside has been removed.

 

The two styles of framing commonly seen on POF models; the double sistered regularly spaced Hahn style and the overlapping Admiralty Dockyard style are simplified modeling conventions.

 

Roger

 

 

 

 

 

 

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  • 1 month later...
On 11/1/2021 at 2:14 PM, mtaylor said:

Good points.   Even the new kits seem to populate the lower decks with items that will never be seen.   

Hi Mark. Sounds like one building a model tank, build it with the guts or just build it as a hull. Lets us have a choice. I much prefere to build it with the guts. To me much more interesting even if I can't see the inside. At least I know it's there. Gary

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Hi there Gary.

This is something that baffles me with any kind of modelling.

I will never understand the dubious idea that considerable work on what will be entirely invisible details has any merit whatsoever.

I do accept pleasure derived is worthwhile....but then to hide it with the thought that you know it's there?

A much more efficient and logical approach surely is to make use of that much neglected but most valuable of tools....imagination.

Life is short enough as it is.

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Shipman,

You make a sensible and arguable  point, but I am with Gary, I get joy out of doing the innards.  I am still baffled as to why I do it myself at times😀   MAYBE on a future project I will leave off sections of framing on one side to show those internal things for others to see.  As with so many things with this hobby of ours, to each his own.  If I am building for myself, saving some time and money on materials are not parts of the equation.  On the other hand when I am building for a client and there is a time constraint, then POB and no internals works for them and for me.  

Allan

PLEASE take 30 SECONDS and sign up for the epic Nelson/Trafalgar project if you would like to see it made into a TV series.   Click on http://trafalgar.tv   There is no cost other than the 30 seconds of your time.  THANK YOU

 

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8 hours ago, shipman said:

Hi there Gary.

This is something that baffles me with any kind of modelling.

I will never understand the dubious idea that considerable work on what will be entirely invisible details has any merit whatsoever.

I do accept pleasure derived is worthwhile....but then to hide it with the thought that you know it's there?

A much more efficient and logical approach surely is to make use of that much neglected but most valuable of tools....imagination.

Life is short enough as it is.

Hi Shipman. You are right and time is short but one can think of it like this. When you build your ships you probably get a lot of enjoyment out of it, just like myself and others. Building the inside I get just has much enjoyment as building the out side even through we won't see it, that is unless you take photo's of them.  A lot of folks like you self also don't like building the inside, but that's ok because there is also a lot of folks like to build the inside.  It like building a 32 pounder on the gun deck. It takes awhile and building a cannon with a lot of detail just to be hidden by the upper deck,  will not be seen so why build them. Guess because I like building them and installing as much detail as my skill will let me.  They are just going to be hidden any way and all you will see is the barrel of the cannon. But I still get enjoyment out of building them and adding the detail to them hidden or not. I build them because of the sheer enjoyment that one get's from building a ship. You say that you will never understand the dubious ideal that considerable work on what will be entirely invisible details has any merit what so ever.  Well  a lot of folks like building the inside knowing that one day it will be covered up. The question is who's merit???? If you get merit out of you building then you must be enjoying it much as I do, making the parts and pieces that go in to it. Of course you may never understand it unless you do it. Which is your chose but getting the enjoyment out of your build is the most important thing.  Here is a photo of the magazine that one can not see now in her hold but can be seen with a photo, no pun intended good sir.

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Gary, I did include this rider.. 'I do accept pleasure derived is worthwhile....' which I'd hope covered your and others point of view.

My comments weren't made to offend anyone who doesn't share my views, but simply to illustrate what to me is a blindingly obvious waste of effort.

If a gun is there and the interior is visible through even the smallest of aperture, then the work is justified.

I do happily concede that each and everyone has the right to build their models in any way they see fit and wouldn't want it to be otherwise.

Honest endeavour is the root of the pleasure we all derive from our hobbies.

Happy modelling to everyone.

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