Thermopylae by My Fathers Son - or as near as I can get it

[My Fathers Son]

Well my Admiral gave the go ahead for a second boat and with a little crafty coaching, she even suggested the subject. 

 

This is going to take a while and I hope I have the time in me as I have just been informed that I have acquired another pair of clots in my right lung.

 

I will be anly assisted by my two feline assistants, I feel relatively safe to do this at the design and early construction stage, it's only when I get down tobthe fine work and rigging that I have to keep it out of reach.

[Bill Morrison]

Hello! What kit did you get?

Bill

[My Fathers Son]

So I have one set of drawings that have given my the lines and layout but this was OK at A4 but printing it out at a scale I want to work in is very poor and all but unusable. It does give me overall dimensions and proportions so not a complete waste.

 

Many in the past have noted the similarity to Cutty Sark, at least in size, so I figure if I take my CS plans and overlay them with the extracts from the line drawing of Thermopylae, I may be able to come up with an acceptable hull.

 

I am looking at doing just that relaxing in the garden with Kobi helping of course.

simon

[druxey]

The Science Museum (London) once published a set of her lines at 1:48 scale:

 

https://collection.maas.museum/object/149083

 

Perhaps you can run down a copy of this plan.

[Rudolf]

53 minutes ago, My Fathers Son said:

So I have one set of drawings that have given my the lines and layout but this was OK at A4 but printing it out at a scale I want to work in is very poor and all but unusable. It does give me overall dimensions and proportions so not a complete waste.

 

Many in the past have noted the similarity to Cutty Sark, at least in size, so I figure if I take my CS plans and overlay them with the extracts from the line drawing of Thermopylae, I may be able to come up with an acceptable hull.

 

I am looking at doing just that relaxing in the garden with Kobi helping of course.

simon

Great subject Simon,

there used to be a planet by Harold Underhill at 1/96, published by Brown and Ferguson, I do not know however if and where they are available nowadays.

Greetings, Rudolf

 

[druxey]

Also:

 

https://www.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/rmgc-object-388866

[Keith Black]

 I've pulled up a chair, Simon and like the cats I'll be following you along on your journey. 

[Bill Morrison]

I strongly recommend that you look at plans of both ships since they differed considerably in hull profile and deck plans. Good luck!

Bill

[Keith Black]

 Simon, you can order a set of Thermopylae plans (they're 1:124 scale) from Cornwall Model Boats. 

 

https://www.cornwallmodelboats.co.uk/cgi-bin/sh000001.pl?WD=thermopylae&PN=Thermopylae-Construction-Plans-Set-961.html#SID=136

[Snug Harbor Johnny]

You've picked an excellent ship to study, mate.  It's a future project for me, but not for some time - ergo I'll watch with interest whatever you may post on the Thermie.  So many have done the Cutty Sark (quite understandable since she still exists), but there are just a few builds on the forum of Thermopylae ... all of them worth a look at.

 

  Both clippers had the same hull length (about 215' on deck - not sure about 'between perpendiculars'), but Thermopylae had the graceful 'Aberdeen bow' (versus the sharp angle of the Cutty) and the stern profile had an outward angle (CS looked closer to vertical above the rub strake).  1:124 is a tougher scale (see the log by Popeye the Sailor of the Sergal kit of the Thermie - and the old Scientific kits were around the same scale), and its harder to keep many details 'in scale'.  Hull size is around 21" at 1:125.

 

  The 1:96 plastic Revell kit (adapted from their CS) goes only so far, and I'm uncertain whether its worth trying to correct the deficiencies (there is an unbuilt kit on my shelf).  Yet some of the components (like the pulleys, pump and winch) might come in useful on a wood build at that scale.  See the build of the Glory of the Seas in 1:96 by Rob Wiederrich, who uses pulleys from Revell kits of the same scale.  The extreme composite clippers had internally stropped pulleys, so using the ordinary sort of wood pulleys would have them externally stropped with rope, whereas the Revell pulleys are good as-is (internally stropped with an iron ring represented on the end).  Hull size is about 27" at 1:96

 

  Yet even those might be a wee bit 'out of scale', so would be useable at around 1:72 ... a scale I'm tempted to use.  A CS or Thermie hull in the larger scale would be around 36"  (not including bowsprit).  So it's hard to make a choice sometimes.  Once can get a wood kit of CS in the larger scale, and the conversion to Thermopylae would be easier to accomplish.  Many items (pump, winch, etc.) would come in the kit instead of having to scratch build.

 

   The best of luck at whatever you choose to do !

 

[Bill Morrison]

I once won two kits on eBay of Thermopylae, both the Scientific kit. It wasn't a bad model. It looks like Thermopylae.  I am aware of only two kits of her that are acceptable, Scientific's version and Mantua/Sergal's.

 

Bill

[My Fathers Son]

On 8/24/2022 at 2:30 PM, Bill Morrison said:

Hello! What kit did you get?

Bill

No Kit Bill, this is a scratch build. I have a copy of the Mantua Cutty Sark plans which I will be adapting. Thermopylae had a very different stem to CS and her Stern will need some changes too. Locations of Masts and deck houses are completely different and the quarterdeck is nearly a full third the size. 

 

However, it will still be easier to adjust these drawings than it would be to start from scratch.

 

Simon

[davyboy]

Hi there,The Aberdeen Maritime Museum have what I believe to be the Builders Model of Thermopylae,I have seen this model when I lived in Aberdeen,it's beautiful.  When the Hall Russel shipyard closed in 1992 their records were given to the Museum as I understand it. Perhaps it may be worthwhile to contact them to see if they can help you,especially with Photo's of the model.

 

Dave 

[My Fathers Son]

3 hours ago, davyboy said:

Hi there,The Aberdeen Maritime Museum have what I believe to be the Builders Model of Thermopylae,I have seen this model when I lived in Aberdeen,it's beautiful.  When the Hall Russel shipyard closed in 1992 their records were given to the Museum as I understand it. Perhaps it may be worthwhile to contact them to see if they can help you,especially with Photo's of the model.

 

Dave 

Hi Dave, 

 

I have seen images of that model online, as would be expected of a constructors model, it is excellent. I will try your suggestion.

 

Thanks 

 

Simon

[My Fathers Son]

When I first suggested this in my Cutty feed, someone quoted a book that contains planes of Thermoplylae but I was unable to source a copy for myself. I did establish that Battersea Library had a copy but unfortunately, I cant find a reference to the title of the book now. 

 

This is typical as my health has forced me to take some time of and I have the time to go sit in a library, I cant recall the book I am supposed to be looking for.

 

Bah humbug

 

Simon

[Snug Harbor Johnny]

  There is an awesome model of Thermopylae built by Cyril Hume with several photos accessible on line.

Edited January 8, 2023 by Snug Harbor Johnny
typos

[druxey]

The most impressive model of her that I saw as a child was this one by I. W. Marsh:

 

https://www.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/rmgc-object-66011

[My Fathers Son]

2 hours ago, Snug Harbor Johnny said:

  There is an awesome model of Thermopylae built by Cyril Hulmes with several photos accessible on line.

Yes, just reviewed that site, very impressive, saved a few of the images for reference purposes.

 

Simon

[My Fathers Son]

Managed to remember the book I was looking for, David MacGregors American and British Clippers as this has plans of Thermopylae in it. I had found a copy in one of my local library's but on searching again, it is no longer on the list. Typical. 

So I have found a copy on Amazon and ordered it, ETA is circa 6th Sept so I have to exercise patience. 

I have been rigging for so long that I thought I would get my fingers back to cutting and sticking, and have a couple of practice pieces on the go.

One of the is a life boat, so I picked up a small sheet of 1/32 basswood.

Mistake 1. Didn't take my time coping the part shapes from the plan.

Mistake 2. Didn't take my time cutting out the parts so any errors were exaggerated. 

Mistake 3. Choice of material. 1/32 basswood is just too fragile and the grain is all in the same direction.

Going back to the plans and translated the material description and it was supposed to be 5mm poplar ply (5 layers).

 

5mm, no way, that's huge. 3mm I would get, but not 5mm. 

 

1/32inch is about .78mm so I have glued additional 1/32 strips either side of the keel, stem and stern posts and single pieces to each rib piece. This has also allowed me to correct some of the inaccuracies from the hurried cutting out.

 

Next is to remind myself how to bend my strips so I can plank it.

 

Simon

[Snug Harbor Johnny]

On 8/27/2022 at 8:19 AM, My Fathers Son said:

Managed to remember the book I was looking for, David MacGregors American and British Clippers as this has plans of Thermopylae in it. I had found a copy in one of my local library's but on searching again, it is no longer on the list. Typical. 

So I have found a copy on Amazon and ordered it, ETA is circa 6th Sept so I have to exercise patience. 

I have been rigging for so long that I thought I would get my fingers back to cutting and sticking, and have a couple of practice pieces on the go.

One of the is a life boat, so I picked up a small sheet of 1/32 basswood.

Mistake 1. Didn't take my time coping the part shapes from the plan.

Mistake 2. Didn't take my time cutting out the parts so any errors were exaggerated. 

Mistake 3. Choice of material. 1/32 basswood is just too fragile and the grain is all in the same direction.

Going back to the plans and translated the material description and it was supposed to be 5mm poplar ply (5 layers).

 

5mm, no way, that's huge. 3mm I would get, but not 5mm. 

 

1/32inch is about .78mm so I have glued additional 1/32 strips either side of the keel, stem and stern posts and single pieces to each rib piece. This has also allowed me to correct some of the inaccuracies from the hurried cutting out.

 

Next is to remind myself how to bend my strips so I can plank it.

 

Simon

  Ahoy, Simon !   Many libraries are 'de-accessioning' book in droves.  I bought a copy of 'Cutty Sark' in the Classic Ships - Their History and how to Model The series by Noel C. L. Hackney (1974 printer Patrick Stephens ... in association with Airfix Products Ltd. - aha, they made the plastic models at the time).  Kept 'thin' to hold down printing costs, its kind of like a 'compressed' file ... just bursting with information, but organized with a logic depending open how one wants to build and rig the model ... so I have to constantly go back and forth to cross-reference whatever detail I'm is trying to clarify.

 

   It also needs more diagrams, although the drawings included do help.  The model in question is listed as 1:130 in the book and may not be produced anymore ... but somewhat small (at least for my fingers and eyes) to do the kind of detailed rigging set forth in the book.  YET, for a larger scale (say, 1:96) it is quite doable, so I plan to 'uncompress' the file somewhat to get a 'road map' useful for the Thermopylae as well as the Cutty.

 

  Opening the cover reveals a side-view related to the text, and a Library stamp for the Jervis Public Library Assn., Rome N.Y. ... so at first I feared that it might have to be returned to the library.  But in the back is the 'pocket' where the book card used to be, an accession date of Sept. 23, 1976 (acquisition cost of $5.95 ... I paid much more) and a record that the book was lent only once with a due date of June 1, 1988 !  There was a library stamp that the book was "Discarded from Jervis Public Library Rome, N. Y." ... most likely in a mass book sale.

 

  It a good thing the book was officially released from the library, because there is a fine of 5 cents per day charged for each day the book is kept beyond the due date stamped above.  Some day long hence, when most of the libraries are gone and the 'cloud' goes away due to some war or catastrophe, will we enter another "dark age" ?

Edited January 8, 2023 by Snug Harbor Johnny

[My Fathers Son]

Hmm, don't think this was down to any mass book-burning event, something far more sinister, the gradual reduction in funding of public libraries. Nobody notices that they are slowly getting smaller, selling of the lesser used books, till one day, when you search for a book you know they had! The book was not even available to take out as it was in the reference section so could only be viewed in the library. 

 

I have found quite a few volumes for sale in the UK on Amazon, Ebay and other used book sellers online and they all seem to be ex-library copies. So I have picked the one that claims to be the one in the best condition at the same price and now sit and hope it still has the intact plans.

 

Simon

[Keith Black]

7 minutes ago, My Fathers Son said:

something far more sinister

 Simon, I think it's something far less sinister, Ebooks. As Ebooks gain in popularity most branch libraries are eliminating the number of printed books and leaving printed materials to be housed by the main libraries. 

[Jaager]

4 hours ago, My Fathers Son said:

David MacGregors American and British Clippers as this has plans of Thermopylae in it

I  checked my copy and there was no plan for Thermopylae.   The period covered falls a decade short of Thermopylae.

 

A different book does

TEA CLIPPERS ,THE                                                
MACGREGOR,DAVID R    CONWAY MARITIME PRESS  LONDON 1983

 

3 sheets  lines,   deck,   spars

There are also photos of the ship - probably of it at an older point in its existence.

The plans are small  - too small.

 

If there are plans in a book by David MacGregor  then the full size 1/4"  are probably in his collection.

I did a key word search and the plans are now owned by an entity that does not seem inclined to provide copies.

 

I think David MacGregor sold plans for a while.  I am not sure if this ship was included but probably so since a pirate site lists a copy that seems to be the three sheets from the book on a single page. 

For these monster size ships, the 1/4" scale plans range about 5' to 6'  long. 

 

[Roger Pellett]

Had time today to look at my David Mac Gregor books for info on Thermopylae; results:

 

Merchant Sailing Ships 1850- 1875   Two references to Thermopylae but no drawings.  Says that builders drawing (hull lines) does exist.

 

Fast Sailing Ships- Their Design and Construction 1775-1875

Includes:  Hull Lines Drawing ,  Reconstructed Deck layout, Sail Plan

The Book also includes several pages of text about the ship

 

I believe that the people who manage the SS Great Britain in Bristol own David MacGregor’s Drawings and sell copies.

 

Roger

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[My Fathers Son]

1 hour ago, Jaager said:

I  checked my copy and there was no plan for Thermopylae.   The period covered falls a decade short of Thermopylae.

 

A different book does

TEA CLIPPERS ,THE                                                
MACGREGOR,DAVID R    CONWAY MARITIME PRESS  LONDON 1983

 

3 sheets  lines,   deck,   spars

There are also photos of the ship - probably of it at an older point in its existence.

The plans are small  - too small.

 

If there are plans in a book by David MacGregor  then the full size 1/4"  are probably in his collection.

I did a key word search and the plans are now owned by an entity that does not seem inclined to provide copies.

 

I think David MacGregor sold plans for a while.  I am not sure if this ship was included but probably so since a pirate site lists a copy that seems to be the three sheets from the book on a single page. 

For these monster size ships, the 1/4" scale plans range about 5' to 6'  long. 

 

Thanks for that, so while I will be getting a good book, it is not going to be of any great help in this particular task.

I think i have that plan you refer to, i printed it out on A2 but the definition at that size means the lines are totally lost. Plus the plans are in two different scales to boot. At that size, the line plan of the hull is fairly close to my CS plans so I can get that Aberdeen Stem on to my keel.

 

Simon

 

[My Fathers Son]

So I have been working on getting what useful information I can get from those printouts with all the loss of detail that entailed.

This is what I have so far.

I am happy enough that the leading edge is the shape I need so I have worked this in to the Cs plane. My first redesigned part.

I know, my curve is not very smooth, I need a French curve or flexi ruler.

 

I started cutting out a lifeboat in 3mm beech ply yesterday and while this is much stronger, it's still wrong. 

I know that in kits, these parts all come on the same sheet, but in this case, one size does not suit all. The keel and parts 10 - 14 need the strength of the ply but the drawings are not for 3mm. Parts 17 and 18 need to take take .5mm plank on top but don't need the strength and definitely not the thickness.  Parts 15/16 and 19/20 need the thickness but as they need a lot of shaping could do with being in a softer material egg Balsa.

 

I shall persevere. Resistance is futile. 

 

Simon

[Snug Harbor Johnny]

   What scale did you choose?  Keeping to a scale determines the sizes for deadeyes, blocks, belaying pins, rope, etc.  At 1:96, the 9 1/2" shroud deadeyes (ok, I'll use 10" or 250mm and 1:100 to make the math easier) would be represented by 2.5mm - with the backstay deadeyes at 2mm (even smaller aloft).  These are devilish to work with, so no wonder many choose to go at least a little 'out of scale' for manageability.  HisModels supplies 3.5mm in the 1:96 Cutty accessory set, which would translate to about 14" in real life!

 

  Of course the (aprox) 1:72 scale kits (they vary slightly) make for a 4' (overall) model (versus 3' at 1:96), but the 3.5mm deadeyes would be very close to scale.  A compromise scale would be 1:84, and one can get away with the 3.5mm shroud deadeyes (just over 11" in real life) ... 'close enough'.  Let's see, the backstay deadeyes would be 3mm, with 2.5mm for the next higher section of masting - and perhaps a few at 2mm highest up.  That made me consider getting an Artisan Latina (AL) Cutty kit in 1:84, then 'bust' it to become the Thermopylae.  All the hardware and materials would make that much easier than a straight 'scratch build'.  Of course, one must pay for the kit.

 

  There are a few builds of that kit in the forum, and the critiques include too few bulkheads for single planking.  OK, making more bulkheads - or even pairs of half-bulkheads - wouldn't be too hard if one goes by the available lines.  More bulkheads = easier single planking (perhaps with wood filler blocks near the bow and stern).  The deck planking is done 'on the flat' before installing bulwarks (not a bad way to go - and OcCre has models using this approach).  Deck planking can be done on the plywood under-deck entirely off the model (as with the Endurance) so that deck eyes and some other stuff can be secured right through the deck to prevent later pull-out during rigging.

 

  Still there are challenges, and I can experiment with the OcCre Endurance (presently in my stash) - my next build after completing the Khufu barge.

[My Fathers Son]

I am still in practice mode as I have not made a hull before and don't want my T to be my first. I have made several small boats, life boats etc, and results have varied. So, just to get my hand back in, I started out on a lifeboat. As mentioned before, the parts were cut out a bit hurried in 1/32 basswood which was to fragile so I strengthened the parts by laminating the basswood alternating the direction of the grain. Not everywhere, but at the crucial junctions it is either 1/16 or 3/32 ply.

There is some work to do on the inside as tit does not bare scrutiny at present but this is the outside.

The plans called for the planks to be in .5mm x 3mm planks but I tried this on another attempt and the scale just looked wrong plus the curvature meant that each plank had to be shaped. 

1/32 basswood is .78mm or there abouts so I guessed at cutting stripes about 1mm . The curvature of the planks started to get extreme on the bottom of the boat so I then restarted from the keel and met my planks in the middle. It might look a little messy close up, but after a coat of stain or paint, I doubt anyone would call me out on it.

As you can see, I have put together a CS hull in 1/200 scale. This is never going to be a finished model, it's for practice only. I still have some fairing to do, which I found out after starting planking. It has also shown me that I need to add some frames below the aft deck above the transition. As the plans do not provide these, a little improvisation is required.  These are the things you only learn on a practice run. I believe I have seen people fill these areas with balsa block.

 

Simon

[bruce d]

Simon, just catching up. Am I reading this right, you are still looking for a workable set of plans for Thermopylae? I may be able to help.

[My Fathers Son]

38 minutes ago, bruce d said:

Simon, just catching up. Am I reading this right, you are still looking for a workable set of plans for Thermopylae? I may be able to help.

I am, I am currently adapting a Mantua 1:96 scate Cutty Sark plan and a very poor print of David MaGregors drawings.

 

I haven't started cutting anything out yet, I am practicingmy hull construction and planking before attempting the real thing.

 

Simon