Correct Glue

[Blacklab]

I hope this is the correct place to ask this question. I have built 50 to 100 rc planes, an over the years I have noticed the glue yellowed. Inside a fuselage it does not matter. Strength was your greatest issue. I have decided to build my first ship model. It’s the Swift 1805. I am told it should go relatively smooth. My first question is what type of glue will not yellow? CA glue in balsa is quite noticeable over time also. I don’t think Elmers is strong enough. Another question is about staining. Which brand do you use, an what clear do you cover it with? 

[Sluicemaster]

Everybody has their personal preferences.  On wood models I use CA glue as little as possible, and Titebond Ultimate as much as possible.  I strive to use just enough to make a strong bond, and not seep out at the joints.  If Tite Bond seeps out clean it immediately.  After it fully sets, you darn near nead a jackhammer to remove it.  Hobby Lobby has several kinds of dispensing bottles with very fine tips that work well with wood glue.  Just remember to clean the tip immediately after using.  I use so little CA glue that I just put a drop on a piece of paper and apply it with a pin probe.  Welcome to ship modeling.

[allanyed]

2 hours ago, Sluicemaster said:

On wood models I use CA glue as little as possible, and Titebond Ultimate as much as possible. 

I think there are a lot of members that fit this category. 

 

Blacktab,

The main thing is to be sure there is no glue visible to begin with.   Wipe up any excess that may squeeze out with a sliver of scrap wood and a wet paper towel and if you use CA anywhere, use acetone in lieu of water.  This will minimize scraping and sanding dried glue which, if not removed, will show big time when the wood is stained or coated with a varnish, oil, or poly finish, etc.

Allan

Edited October 17, 2022 by allanyed

[mtaylor]

I just use straight Elmer's white glue.  Being careful to clean up any that gets outside the gluing area is a priority no matter what glue you use. 

[OllieS]

For staining I use Colron: Light Oak; Dark Oak; Medium Georgian Oak plus others. Staining works well but can only be done effectively before gluing anything. Acrylic varnish after.

[Blacklab]

I am glad you fellows gave me good answers. I was about to purchase something else. I have always used Zap for instant CA glue. But I think this time I am going to use a white glue of some brand. Building aircraft very little glue needed to be cleaned up. CA was mostly used, epoxy was used near engine mounts to stop fuel creep. Almost any glue could be used for the rest of the structure. It was all inside an rarely needed much cleanup. From your recommendation cleanup is a must am not to over do it. I think I can do that. Thanks for the help, it’s nice to get answers so quickly.

 

[glbarlow]

I have built a lot of models using CA, some are 20 years old, there’s nothing wrong with it used correctly. Take a look at the planking on my current build, HMS Winchelsea, it was all done with CA. However, not all CA products are created equal, I only use Smith Industries CA. Local hardware store superglue isn’t the best choice. If you’re at the point of needing acetone you used way too much. 

 

I use multiple glues depending on the stage of the build and task involve. Titebond is great for the frame, not the best for smaller, tighter work. I use a lot of white PVA glue, but I get a quality wood working product, I wouldn’t trust Elmers on my models. 
 

I would never use a wood stain on a model, I prefer the natural look of the wood with a few coats of Wipe On Poly. 
 

There are many many ‘glue’ threads on this forum, everyone has an opinion. CA seems to create strong opinions in some, always amuses me to read the ‘never CA’ crowd comments. Do a search on it if you want more opinions. I use what works best for me. 

Edited October 19, 2022 by glbarlow

[mtaylor]

Just a note on the Smith Industries CA..... When they sell their CA they will add custom labels with the shop/store name on the label. Look at the Bar Code on the back of the bottle and it will have "Manufactured by BSI".  My local hobby shop sells it that way and so do several craft stores, all with their personal label from BSI.  

[glbarlow]

7 minutes ago, mtaylor said:

a note on the Smith Industries CA

Good note, thanks. They also have an odorless version.

[mtaylor]

They also have a lot of different thicknesses of CA.  

[bridgman]

Browsing the local [an hour away] Hobby  Lobby store noticed that they carry BSI CA  and Testors paints, both enamel,  acrylic and spry cans.

An unexpected surprise and convient source.

Bridgman Bob

 

[glbarlow]

Amazon sells Smith Industries CA

[Blacklab]

So don’t purchase Gorilla CA? It’s in every store I have been to. I was looking for Zap but no one Carrie’s it. It’s been a few years since I built an rc plane, I guess they are out of business. I think I will just make an order from one of the ship modeling online store. I have always use the super small tips that look like string. The diameter is maybe 2 in diameter. I allowed only the tiniest amount of CA to be applied. The tips on the bottles are just to large an clog to easily. I found it best to get several bottle tips too. Here I was just thinking I had plenty of tools an it should be easy enough. More to this than I imagined a few weeks ago.

[Gregory]

1 hour ago, Blacklab said:

So don’t purchase Gorilla CA?

You can purchase whatever you like.

Glenn is recommending Bob Smith.  He has used it successfully  for many years and you can look at his build logs for examples of his fine work.

I really like the Bob Smith product also.  I have also had very good results with a brand called 2P-10.

 

If you decide to use the Gorilla brand, you can let us know how it works for you.  I don't recall that anyone else has talked about using it.

[Canute]

I think people shy away from Gorilla, expecting the expanding foam variety. They make a very nice PVA glue which I've used from time to time. Haven't tried their CA glue. Been looking at the rubber particle filled CAs for their added strength.

[James H]

1 hour ago, Canute said:

I think people shy away from Gorilla, expecting the expanding foam variety. They make a very nice PVA glue which I've used from time to time. Haven't tried their CA glue. Been looking at the rubber particle filled CAs for their added strength.

 

I use Gorilla CA gel all the time. It's all I'll ever now use (of all CA brands) for constructional stuff, when I'm not on Titebond. 

[Canute]

Thanks for that product endorsement, James. I'll pick one up next time I get more CA.

[Blacklab]

I purchased some Gorilla CA an find it’s no different than the Zap I have used on RC aircraft. The only thing I did not like was the tip. The bottle I got doe not have the type I prefer to use, the smaller tip similar to micro dots coming out of it. I have plenty of dispensers an will transfer it quickly into one of those applicators. Air I was told is the thing you want to stay away from, but so far it works the same and it’s strong. I used it on scrap plywood, an strips of walnut. The plywood comes apart first. I have on order some of the BSI stuff recommended on an earlier post. I would not be surprised to find out that only one or two companies make CA. 

[bartley]

You are quite correct, Blacklab.  Before I retired I was an Industrial Chemist and at that time there were only two manufacturers. So basically there is a lot of 'badge engineering' going on and marketing is the key.  Having said that the companies who purchase the stuff do sometimes adjust the formulation particularly the solvent and the concentration of the actual CA.  So some products may penetrate more into timber or dry a little more quickly but this adds to the cost of course.

 

John

[Blacklab]

Another thing I am wrestling with is wood type. Where do you purchase the wood for these models? I would like to change some parts out to another species. I would like to get some of the Alaskan yellow cedar one person used or something similar. My neighbor thinks it’s a secret about where he gets wood, the mahogany he used for a keel is really nice. 
I will do a search on CA to see just where it does come from. The government carries info on who owns who. It might be interesting.

[Bob Cleek]

1 hour ago, Blacklab said:

Another thing I am wrestling with is wood type. Where do you purchase the wood for these models? I would like to change some parts out to another species. I would like to get some of the Alaskan yellow cedar one person used or something similar. My neighbor thinks it’s a secret about where he gets wood, the mahogany he used for a keel is really nice. 

Here, again, there's lots of information about wood sourcing in the forum section "Wood Discussion:" 

 

 

Answering "Where to find wood" depends upon whether you are looking for milled wood or not.  If you are looking for "strip wood" and "sheet wood" milled to modeling sizes like that sold in a lot of hobby stores (usually low quality basswood,) you will have to purchase it from one of the few (and dwindling number of) specialty vendors, most all of whom are online. (Two of the best are listed on the right side of the forum homepage as sponsors.) It's expensive, relatively speaking, but if you are only purchasing small amounts, the purchase price and shipping may not be a consideration for you. You can expect that most of the wood provided in all but the top-end model kit brands (e.g. Syren, Vanguard, etc.) will not be of particularly high quality. For this reason, many serious kit builders will buy after-market wood to replace some or all of the stock provided by the kit manufacturers.. 

 

Most modelers who "go over to the dark side" and build from scratch to one degree or another, which is something of a natural progression if one stays with the hobby after a few kit builds, mill their own modeling lumber. This requires investing in a bandsaw (preferably a 14" model often available on the used market, a good modeling table saw, a thickness sander (e.g. Byrnes Model Machines products: https://www.byrnesmodelmachines.com/ ) and perhaps a small chainsaw. Acquiring the machinery is an investment, but the savings realized from being able to mill your own modeling lumber will pay for the machines over your years of modeling and if you or your heirs no longer have a need for these machines, they hold their value well, so some, if not all, of the purchase price can be recovered upon resale. 

 

Bottom line, good modeling wood is where you find it and it's usually easier to find it for free or at low cost and mill it yourself than to buy it milled off the internet. Finally, the ability to have the wood you need on hand can't be fully appreciated until you find yourself needing a half dozen strips to finish planking a hull and have to wait a few weeks to get some more by mail order, and praying it will match the wood with which you started the job!

 

 

Edited October 22, 2022 by Bob Cleek

[Gregory]

1 hour ago, Blacklab said:

Another thing I am wrestling with is wood type.

My two favorites are:

Modeler's Sawmill

One of our sponsors. Has somewhat limited species selection, but very nice stuff, particularly the Alaskan yellow cedar.

 

Ocooch Hardwoods   While Ocooch does not have pear, boxwood or Alaskan yellow cedar, they have a greater variety of other woods.  They do not have all the thickness options that Modelers Sawmill does.

[Tomculb]

I too built RC planes a lifetime ago (only 3 of them), and since they were gliders built almost entirely with balsa, I used CA almost exclusively, mostly thin.  With ship models I use Titebond almost exclusively.  I use thin CA to stiffen the ends of threads so I can get them through blocks, medium CA where metal is involved (eg gluing eyebolts into holes in the wood), and diluted white glue to secure knots in rigging. 

 

The thing I like about Titebond and wood is that it is almost immediately tacky, but you have some time to move things around before it sets.  Also cleanup is easy if you get to it in time. And while its strength is plenty adequate, I have been able to pull a piece off after the glue sets to correct a mistake (eg pulling some planking off a POB hull) without pulling off a lot of the other piece with it.

[glbarlow]

I never use what the glue comes in, too unwieldy. Bob Smith Industries also has these Applicators  I’m sure they are available from other sources. 

“There are significant differences in adhesive performance among the various cyanoacrylate products.“ From simple web search. 
 

Both Smith Industries and Gorilla manufacturer their CA products. Bob Smith Industries has 8-9 different variations including an odorless version. As mentioned other companies, generally hobby stores, put their name, with permission, on BSI’s products.

So many glue threads, so many opinions….🤣 I know what works for me.

Edited October 23, 2022 by glbarlow

[baribeaujm]

To add to the discussion, I have used both PVA and CA in my model building for the last 12 years. I first used PVA for planking, which I found challenging. It could be messy, it requires clamping, especially at the bow and stern. About six years ago, I switch to CA for planking, following Chuck;s method. I find CA a lot easier to use and the resulting plankling a lot more satisfactory. You can get very thight joints with CA without use of clamps. There is no need to apply glue to the edges, minimizing glue stains. It is also a lot more forgiving at the bow and stern.  If your plank bending is not perfect. Just hold the plank in the correct position for a few seconds until the glue sets. I first used BSI products but recently switched to Gorilla gel.  I really like the latter product and found it performed just as well as BSI. The gel gives you a few seconds to adjust pieces, it alo minimizes splills and stains. The glue dispenser is also very well designed.  The spout never clogs, which I found could be a problem with BSI bottles.

 

Jean-Marc

[Blacklab]

I have gotten all the glue I wanted to try. Each one has a specific use, it reminds me of building RC aircraft a different glue for everything. One problem I have come across an finally have had to resolve is the quality of the kit. Swift 1805 1/50 scale. I believe it’s been built more times than I can count. I studied the plans over an over for hours. After sanding an working on placing the bulkhead’s onto the frame, no matter how hard I tried I could not straighten the piece. I wet it placed it in a clamp with boards holding it straight for days. I heated it no change. I finally had to use a scroll saw an cut a new piece from aircraft grade plywood left over from another project. But another error came about, the bulkheads on 3 an 4 were wrongly marked. If I had placed them in correct order the hull would have had a bow in the center. I knew it was wrong, so I switched the them around an everything came into form. My question is this to be expected in many kits or is it just an anomaly? I ordered another model of the same ship from eBay, an it had the same problem. The frame the bulkhead fixed to were almost as bad as the original. The next ship I want to tackle is the Mayflower. Maybe it’s hard or fairly easy enough, I am no expert on model ships, but are these faults expected? I know in RC models there are mistakes, but they are fairly an easily corrected. If I were a beginner at building an reading drawings I could not have completed this kit an gave up. I can say the mast an keel that glues onto the model are straight. Also the kit did not come with sails, is this common? I have started planking the hull an it’s quite interesting to see how each plank fits. It does test you skill at building, which I find enjoyable.

[Jaager]

On 10/17/2022 at 6:21 AM, Blacklab said:

CA glue in balsa is quite noticeable over time also. I don’t think Elmers is strong enough

There are several chemical bonding agents under the Elmer's umbrella.   If it is white PVA that you used, then if the surfaces were close enough together, then the PVA polymers would be more than strong enough.  PVA is stronger than cellulose to lignin in any species of wood.  In Balsa the wood itself just barely holds itself together.  If your joint tolerances were close enough, it is probable that the wood itself was the site of failure.

 

1 hour ago, Blacklab said:

Also the kit did not come with sails, is this common?

I suspect that kits that do come with sails do so for marketing reasons.  What is provided is not appropriate to the scale of the model.  Unless you are at a scale above 1:48, I doubt that any woven fabric has thread that is fine enough or a weave that is tight enough to meet scale requirements.

 

Speculation:  Kit manufacturers who are serious about historical accuracy do not provide sails -  those that do probably are providing a subject that has as much fiction and fantasy as historical accuracy.

 

Wooden ship model kits are from an evolutionary development track that expected anyone who is serious about the subject would add or replace with scratch built components.  The earliest kits were little more than a crudely carved hull, plans, and a push into scratch.  

 

Beyond a true beginner's kit - the focus of a wooden ship model kit instructions should be on accurate plans, with options for possible scratch augments,  as much information on the individual "What" as practical,  with the expectation that the builder will already know the "How" or will have the ability to dig it out.  The instructions should have a bib. and Net links to make a good start on the search for the "How".

 

One of the advantages of a wooden ship model kit is that the raw material is easy to obtain from multiple sources.  In most instances, with mass market kits, the material obtained from secondary sources is superior to what is provided with the kit.  Doing this should be a source of pride, additional skills, and confidence.

[Blacklab]

I did not use CA glue on the parts I had to remake. I think it’s called a false keel. I think I will build this one without sails. It’s a starter kit an much of the parts I have looked at so far are just parts. It’s going to take a long time to remake or make fit. I am beginning to think the two kits I got just bad runs of the model. I just tried for fun to see how the rudder will look holding it up to the stern. Not real close, I realize the deck has not been planked, keel an other parts added but some how I am wondering if two kit were mistaken in parts packing. It’s no problem in the long run I will end up with with more knowledge an experience. As the old man would say keep ‘‘em operational gentlemen.” Never know what your up against or find.

[bigcreekdad]

Blacklab.....I've using cherry for most of my builds as second planking. I get mine at Woodcrafters and cut and thin it myself on Byrnes equipment. You can likely find strips at The Lumberyard. When complete I apply few coats of gun oil. Really looks nice (IMO of course). I attached a pic of one cherry planking after one coat. Show us your progress. Have fun!

[Dave_E]

Do you have a build log going for this beauty? 👍😀